7000-series - Manufacturing

[railfan4072]

It seems the CTA is getting ready to announce an RFP (request for proposals) for a new series of rail cars. I hear that, with options, the order could be for more than 800 cars.

Does anyone have more details?

[railfan4072]

It seems the CTA is getting ready to announce an RFP (request for proposals) for a new series of rail cars. I hear that, with options, the order could be for more than 800 cars.

Does anyone have more details?

Update:

Apparently, the procurement opportunity is an IFB (Invitation for Bid), not an RFP, and it is already posted on the CTA's procurement page .

It is for a base order of 100 cars, with options for up to 746 additional cars. The bid due date (for now) is 7/25/13.

The detail spec part of the bid document is more than 300 pages.

Section 3.01 M, (page DS 3-5) addresses the design of the interior of the car. It asks for three alternate design concepts for the interior of the car, including seating configurations. The CTA will review seating configurations during the pre-bid phase and will make a preliminary selection prior to the submittal of final bids. So it looks like they are not married to the bowling-alley style seats currently in the 5000s.

What other proposed changes do you all see?

[Busjack]

Update:

Apparently, the procurement opportunity is an IFB (Invitation for Bid), not an RFP, and it is already posted on the CTA's procurement page .

Really doesn't make any difference between the two terms. Most of these are IFPs.

I was going to start with the usual WT? but you did have the link, and apparently downloaded the specs. The permanent link is here.

The only thing one can say at this time was that there were entries in the 2013 Budget in the capital plan about rehabbing 100 2600s (which is also in the procurement page) and ordering more new cars. Maybe once the dispute over CTA Sales Tax Revenue Fund Bonds was resolved, they figure they can get the money for the additional cars.

I also find it strange that the public web site doesn't say how many. I would guess 290 to meet the current requirement of about 1250 (after "decrowding") most which which would be needed on the Blue Line. Then it raises the question whether CTA will need any for any New Starts.

But unless something radically changes at CTA management, I don't expect any changes from the 5000s. Heck, the 5000s were delayed because CTA sent out an obsolete spec based on the 3200s. Also, it is way too early to say they will be 7000s; they could be 5800s if, by then, enough room has been cleared out from 6000s now used for buses, just like the 2600s went up to 3200.

[railfan4072]

Really doesn't make any difference between the two terms. Most of these are IFPs.

I was going to start with the usual WT? but you did have the link, and apparently downloaded the specs. The permanent link is here.

The only thing one can say at this time was that there were entries in the 2013 Budget in the capital plan about rehabbing 100 2600s (which is also in the procurement page) and ordering more new cars. Maybe once the dispute over CTA Sales Tax Revenue Fund Bonds was resolved, they figure they can get the money for the additional cars.

I also find it strange that the public web site doesn't say how many. I would guess 290 to meet the current requirement of about 1250 (after "decrowding") most which which would be needed on the Blue Line. Then it raises the question whether CTA will need any for any New Starts.

But unless something radically changes at CTA management, I don't expect any changes from the 5000s. Heck, the 5000s were delayed because CTA sent out an obsolete spec based on the 3200s. Also, it is way too early to say they will be 7000s; they could be 5800s if, by then, enough room has been cleared out from 6000s now used for buses, just like the 2600s went up to 3200.

The public bid document explicitly states that the spec is for a base order of 100 cars, with options to purchase up to 746 additional cars. (There are a total of eight options.)

The bid form also makes at least one specific reference to these being the 7000-series rail cars. Could that change? Of course, but I certainly don't think it is too early to use information provided in the bid documents for reference or discussion purposes. It's not like I just arbitrarily assigned that series number on my own.

However, although the rail cars are referred to as the 7000 series cars at least once, the spec numbering and references to the spec are inconsistent and alternate between 7000-12 and 7200-12. (It leads me to think that perhaps they decided to change the number from one to the other and failed to apply the update consistently. )

[Busjack]

The public bid document explicitly states that the spec is for a base order of 100 cars, with options to purchase up to 746 additional cars. (There are a total of eight options.)

...

When I was referring to the "public site" I meant the procurement page itself, not the pdf you registered to get.

Usually, as in the cases of buses, it says something like "Invitation for Bids for 450 buses, consisting of 300 to 450 forty foot clean diesel buses and 50 to 150 sixty foot clean diesel or diesel hybrid 60 foot buses" which later was changed to "up to 600 buses, with minimum quantities of 300 forty foot buses and 50 sixty foot buses."

Here, the Contract Opportunities page and the linked registration page just say "Rapid Transit Cars."

Sorry if I wasn't precise enough with my statement.

[sw4400]

When I was referring to the "public site" I meant the procurement page itself, not the pdf you registered to get.

Usually, as in the cases of buses, it says something like "Invitation for Bids for 450 buses, consisting of 300 to 450 forty foot clean diesel buses and 50 to 150 sixty foot clean diesel or diesel hybrid 60 foot buses" which later was changed to "up to 600 buses, with minimum quantities of 300 forty foot buses and 50 sixty foot buses."

Here, the Contract Opportunities page and the linked registration page just say "Rapid Transit Cars."

Sorry if I wasn't precise enough with my statement.

I agree, Busjack. I think this isn't a procurement for more railcars, but yet for parts or perhaps overhaul of railcars currently being used. The procurement simply says "Rapid Transit Cars" under "Supplies". I can't find the procurement for the 5000's when they were put out for bidding, but I imagine it was similar to a bus procurement. "Invitation for bids for XXX railcars, with an option for XXX more railcars."

[sw4400]

However, although the rail cars are referred to as the 7000 series cars at least once, the spec numbering and references to the spec are inconsistent and alternate between 7000-12 and 7200-12. (It leads me to think that perhaps they decided to change the number from one to the other and failed to apply the update consistently. )

If.... if there were more railcars in the foreseeable future, which I have slight doubt about because the 5000's will retire the 2200's and 2400's entirely as well as start retirement on the oldest 2600's. I know they had an option to go up to 706 railcars with Bombardier(I believe they only have procured 406 currently, so there is 300 more available to procure).

As far as the numbering, I believe 5801-5802 or 6001-6002 will be the starting number blocks for this "L" series if it is going to be procured. Railcars do not start with XX00, so the numbers you mentioned would begin with 7001-7002 or 7201-7202.

But I'm not going to register to download info to my computer that I have no purpose on using other than reading. The CTA probably keeps track of how many hits they get on procurements and might be like "Wow, John Doe must really be interested in bidding. Let's E-Mail or contact him and ask." Unless you are seriously interested in bidding, I wouldn't submit info on procurements.

[artthouwill]

If.... if there were more railcars in the foreseeable future, which I have slight doubt about because the 5000's will retire the 2200's and 2400's entirely as well as start retirement on the oldest 2600's. I know they had an option to go up to 706 railcars with Bombardier(I believe they only have procured 406 currently, so there is 300 more available to procure).

As far as the numbering, I believe 5801-5802 or 6001-6002 will be the starting number blocks for this "L" series if it is going to be procured. Railcars do not start with XX00, so the numbers you mentioned would begin with 7001-7002 or 7201-7202.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the CTA DID PROCURE the entire 706 rail car order from Bombardier.

But assuming that your statement that they only did procure 406 is true, and considering the public outcry concerning the interior layout of the 5000s, a case could be made that they are looking to see IF they would be able to get another set of railcars from a different manufacturer or another shot at Bombardier for a better price and better seating. I'm not saying that is the case, but one could argue that. There is also that issue of rehabbing 3200s, although that doesn't necessarily have to happen, but I believe retiring all of the 2600s is imperative. Even if Bombardier has the procurement for all 706 railcars, I don't believe that will retire all of the 2600s, perhaps 100 would be leftover, hence the reason for a base order of 100 railcars?

[Busjack]

I agree, Busjack. I think this isn't a procurement for more railcars, but yet for parts or perhaps overhaul of railcars currently being used. The procurement simply says "Rapid Transit Cars" under "Supplies". I can't find the procurement for the 5000's when they were put out for bidding, but I imagine it was similar to a bus procurement. "Invitation for bids for XXX railcars, with an option for XXX more railcars."

I was only dealing with the semantics of the Contract Opportunities page.

As to what CTA is actually procuring, you'll have to download the pdf, like railfan4072 did, not try to read something into what isn't there.

But if it were for parts, it would be like the one I cited earlier for rehabbing 100 cars, which says " Request for Proposals (RFP) for Sourcing and Delivery of Parts required to Perform In-House Overhauls on (100) of the 2600 Series Railcars. (REVISED)" So this isn't that.

[Kevin]

I agree, Busjack. I think this isn't a procurement for more railcars, but yet for parts or perhaps overhaul of railcars currently being used. The procurement simply says "Rapid Transit Cars" under "Supplies".

"The work under these Contract Documents consists of the manufacturing and delivery of a base order of 100 Rapid Transit Cars (50 two-car units) with eight options to purchase up to 746 additional cars."

I know they had an option to go up to 706 railcars with Bombardier(I believe they only have procured 406 currently, so there is 300 more available to procure).

All remaining options were exercised in July 2011.

As far as the numbering, I believe 5801-5802 or 6001-6002 will be the starting number blocks for this "L" series if it is going to be procured. Railcars do not start with XX00, so the numbers you mentioned would begin with 7001-7002 or 7201-7202.

"The cars delivered under this Specification shall be designated as CTA's 7000 Series cars"

[Busjack]

If.... if there were more railcars in the foreseeable future, which I have slight doubt about because the 5000's will retire the 2200's and 2400's entirely as well as start retirement on the oldest 2600's. I know they had an option to go up to 706 railcars with Bombardier(I believe they only have procured 406 currently, so there is 300 more available to procure).....

You totally missed that they exercised the options for the 300.

At the time they said they had to, because the option price of $1.4 million would have gone up to something like $2.4 million of they had to rebid. Reference to the exercise of those options is in this Word doc containing a committee agenda.

[Busjack]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the CTA DID PROCURE the entire 706 rail car order from Bombardier.

...

As I cited above, you are correct.

[sw4400]

"The work under these Contract Documents consists of the manufacturing and delivery of a base order of 100 Rapid Transit Cars (50 two-car units) with eight options to purchase up to 746 additional cars."

All remaining options were exercised in July 2011.

"The cars delivered under this Specification shall be designated as CTA's 7000 Series cars"

Not knocking the order, but why 7000-Series? The CTA jumps from 5000-Series to 7000-Series. The 6000-Series is gone for all practical purposes(Flxibles aren't coming back, NOVA LFS will be retired in the next 1-2 years, by the time these new railcars are procured and built, the 6400-Series will be history), unless they're saving the 6000 block for some newer buses(the TBD future order of articulateds, the NOVA LFS on order)

[Busjack]

Not knocking the order, but why 7000-Series?

While I didn't buy that as permanent (remember the reports of the 1000 series L cars, including 1017 in the Jan. 2008 Powerpoint), CTA may as well go all Boston (as CTA did with the signs on the north Red Line project) and make them 007000s.

Other than that, it has been pointed out is that the only function of a fleet number is a unique asset tag to put in the computer. Why are you so hung up about them (as in your 7000 series of nonexistent buses)?

[sw4400]

While I didn't buy that as permanent (remember the reports of the 1000 series L Why are you so hung up about them (as in your 7000 series of nonexistent buses)?

I'm not, just perplexed. All other "L" fleet numbers were pretty much following previous suit with the exception of the 5000's because New Flyer had the 4000-Series block.

Current "L" Fleet numbers:

2201-2352(1969-1970 Budd-later numbers were renumbered cars)

2401-2600(1976-1978 Boeing-Vertol)

2601-3200(1981-1987 Budd/Transit America)

3201-3458(1991-1994 Morrison-Knudsen-3457 is last MK unit, 3458 is renumbered Budd/TA unit 3032)

5001-5706(2009-???? Bombardier Transit*)

7001-7100(Proposed number block-No Manufacturer bid currently)

*= Railcars still being delivered

That's the perplexing part.... why not 6001-6002? It's been over 10 years since 6000's rolled on "L" property(I believe 1992 was their final year)

[Busjack]

I noted, for those who may become antsy, that the spec calls for prototypes 910 days (about 2.5 years) after the contract date, and production deliveries start no earlier than 290 days (about 10 months) after the prototypes are delivered.

While the first set of options are for 50, 50, 100, and 100 cars, the interesting one is Option 5 for 156 cars, which is 5 years past the contract date. I wonder what they had in mind? Then it goes back to 100, 100, and 90 cars. Option 8 goes out about 6 years 9 months from the contract date. Options can be skipped.

So, basically, don't expect anything until 2016, and CTA is apparently trying to lock in contract prices to 2020.

But, why they would need 846 cars is beyond me (other than the reference that they be able to run in up to 12 car trains), so we'll have to see if this becomes like the 900 bus spec., or a good chunk of the options are exercised.

[MRCTA]

So, When can we see the new CTA Rail cars(7000 version)and will there be 8000 series rail cars to the CTA?

[Busjack]

So, When can we see the new CTA Rail cars(7000 version)and will there be 8000 series rail cars to the CTA?

Read above.

[sw4400]

But, why they would need 846 cars is beyond me (other than the reference that they be able to run in up to 12 car trains),

12-car trains I highly doubt, because platforms for all eight rail lines would have to be extended to handle four more cars/platform, and you already had all this work done on the Brown Line just a few years ago, the Red Line north of Belmont this year, and this Spring the Red Line south of Roosevelt. Looking at what 2016 is(30th year of service for the final 2600's) and what 2020 is for locking in prices(30th year of service, almost, for the 3200's) and adding up the numbers ordered here (846) to the total of 2600's and 3200's(600+256=856). These cars are just like the 5000-Series... replacements for the oldest railcars on the system. The extra railcars are with the 5000's as you have 706 railcars replacing 350 of the oldest fleet currently(2200's and 2400's), that leaves 356 extra railcars.

so we'll have to see if this becomes like the 900 bus spec., or a good chunk of the options are exercised.

Personally, I didn't think the CTA green-lighted the full 706 order for Bombardier, as only 406 would've retired both sets of the oldest cars, but they did exercise all options. Since 356 railcars are extra out of the 5000-Series order, I would say they could stop the order for the proposed 7000-Series at 390 and have enough cars to make a whole new fleet with no spares.

[jajuan]

I'm not, just perplexed. All other "L" fleet numbers were pretty much following previous suit with the exception of the 5000's because New Flyer had the 4000-Series block.

Current "L" Fleet numbers:

2201-2352(1969-1970 Budd-later numbers were renumbered cars)

2401-2600(1976-1978 Boeing-Vertol)

2601-3200(1981-1987 Budd/Transit America)

3201-3458(1991-1994 Morrison-Knudsen-3457 is last MK unit, 3458 is renumbered Budd/TA unit 3032)

5001-5706(2009-???? Bombardier Transit*)

7001-7100(Proposed number block-No Manufacturer bid currently)

*= Railcars still being delivered

That's the perplexing part.... why not 6001-6002? It's been over 10 years since 6000's rolled on "L" property(I believe 1992 was their final year)

The point is that it doesn't matter what they number the rail cars if they get them beyond being able to identify them for asset counting purposes. Most folks don't care what a vehicle number is in normal operating circumstances. They just care about being able to get from point A to B in their commutes.

[Busjack]

...

Section 3.01 M, (page DS 3-5) addresses the design of the interior of the car. It asks for three alternate design concepts for the interior of the car, including seating configurations. The CTA will review seating configurations during the pre-bid phase and will make a preliminary selection prior to the submittal of final bids. So it looks like they are not married to the bowling-alley style seats currently in the 5000s.

What other proposed changes do you all see?

Having (as you can guess) downloaded this, and mulling it over overnight, my reactions are the following:

The numerous references in this spec to "like the 3200s" in addition to "like the 5000s" give me the feeling that while this is modified from the 5000s spec, it isn't by very much. Not having the 5000 spec, I still wonder:Are the depictions in the Jan. 2008 President's Report merely responsive to a similar requirement in the 5000s spec., and basically were rejected? Someone pointed out that the second end cap was essentially an NYC one, and obviously the windows in the two alternative interiors don't match the windows in the CTA cars.

So, if that was the case, should anyone expect anything different this time?

The section railfan quoted did mention "alternate concepts for ... general seating arrangement," and the specs for the seats (page 225) say that the layout on DR1 is an example of current CTA cars for general dimensional references only. However, references to such things as a 2 passenger seat being 35" wide, the current type of fiberglass shell, and inserts "shall be interchangeable with those on CTA's 5000 series cars, unless otherwise agreed by the Engineer" indicate that while there might be some flexibility, practically speaking there is not. See also DR3 at page 513. I don't see how the InSite or Aries seats comply, nor the suggestion by some that the seats should be flat benches.

As far as "other proposed changes do you see," I don't see any. Stuff like the destination signs conform to the current usage, although it appears that the "color LED ones that have the same appearance as the curtain signs" will also be on the inside.

Let me throw out three other things for the group's consideration:

• Although there are some references to brand names or equivalent, those do not appear with respect to the motors (it just says a 3 phase AC squirrel cage motor meeting certain performance specifications, not a Bombardier Model XYZ), ATC, TOTS, signs, door controls, GPS, etc. Thus, if CTA could develop a specification for bidding for the 7000s, why couldn't they develop a similar one for the mid life rebuild of the 3200s? It is clear that the 7000s have to be compatible with the 5000s, so apparently no Bombarider proprietary secrets were given out this time, and thus need not have been given out, despite the justification for the attempted no bid contract on the 3200s.
• The 2013 CTA Budget has the D overhaul of the 3200s, but I sort of had the same questions sw had about that with regard to options for up to 846. On the other hand, $1 million per car is still less than $2.5 million per car.
• With relation to the time line, if Bombardier is the successful bidder for the 7000s, and is basically directed to make something like the 5000s, is the testing period really necessary? Could Bombardier underbid on the basis that its cars have already undergone testing, while any other builder (Alstom, Kawasaki, Sumitomo of Rochelle) would have to go through the test period and be guaranteed only a 100 car order (or see prior speculation on how many cars CTA would really need)?

[Busjack]

This is no longer on the Contract Opportunities page, and the permanent link now links to a blank page.

What happened?

[See Tea Eh]

This is no longer on the Contract Opportunities page, and the permanent link now links to a blank page.

What happened?

Most likely explanation: Some high-level CTA exec was lurking on this page and thought, "gee, sw4400 was right, we really shouldn't call these the 7000-series; we'd better take down the RFP so we can change the numbering series."

[Busjack]

Most likely explanation: Some high-level CTA exec was lurking on this page and thought, "gee, sw4400 was right, we really shouldn't call these the 7000-series; we'd better take down the RFP so we can change the numbering series."

That wouldn't be enough. Search these fora for 1000 series L cars and 600 series articulated hybrid buses.

More than likely, someone said "do we really have $2.1 billion for 846 cars we don't need?" But then that didn't mean that the 900 articulated Olympic bus requisition ever went down.

[sw4400]

That wouldn't be enough. Search these fora for 1000 series L cars and 600 series articulated hybrid buses.

More than likely, someone said "do we really have $2.1 billion for 846 cars we don't need?" But then that didn't mean that the 900 articulated Olympic bus requisition ever went down.

I doubt it was changed on my quote as well. My speculation... it's 2013, these railcars won't be needed until 2015-2016. They could solicit bids during the 4th quarter of this year or early 2014. That gives the winning bidder 1-2 years to create a pair of prototype cars for CTA to inspect and make any changes to. I don't think it takes 18 months to put together two railcars with today's modern technology. A few weeks, perhaps months and you have two complete railcars.