River Valley Metro Kankakee

[andrethebusman]

Never said FT owned them in Hammond. Said they ended up owned by FT or FS. Also said buses changed with each contractor - from Gary transits to Hammond Yellow school buses to Vancom RTS's to CUSA Optimas to FT cutaways.  (Miss anyone?) Who owned what is different from who ran what.

[Busjack]

You are very loose in your termonology. How does a bus owned by NIRPC become a CUSA Optima? Are 2727-2735 MV Eldorados? Are 8624-8630 FS Glen Ellyn buses? Of course not, They are Pace buses. 

To get back to the topic of this post, I suppose that the buses River Valley is buying with Federal or state funds,  or even their ex-Indy and CTA Optimas, are FT buses, because they contract out the provision of drivers. Preposterous. 

[andrethebusman]

Who actually owned the Optima's? It might be like vans you  see with a sign "bought with funds provided by Veterans Administration" or some other agency. There is subsidy involved but the contractor running the van for the agency actually has the title. running. HPTC is most likely a non-profit, it could be a grant pass-through where they give money to the contractor to buy the buses. 

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

Who actually owned the Optima's?

I said exactly what was on the placards. Work on your reading skills. Do the Veterans' vans say "VA No. 24?"

And who the heck is HPTC? Hammond Transit System (HTS) was a city department. The city contracted for drivers, just like Pace has done on frequent occasions. It is not Milwaukee County.

Simliarly, if you look at the City of Valparaiso website under Departments,  V Line and ChicaGo Dash are under there.The About Us page says; 

"This service is brought to you by the City of Valparaiso and the Valparaiso Redevelopment Commission with substantial financial support from...."

This NWI Times article says that the RBA gave the City of Valparaiso remaining capital money for it to buy buses.It didn't say to pass it on to the contractor supplying the drivers. In fact it says "Kent said he is working on the specifications for the Dash bus with Motor Coach Industries, which built the buses already owned by the city." Neither Hammond nor Valpo were the CSSMTD or WSMTD. And,BTW, the latter agencies held the title. IC and Burlington (after the transfer) did not.

BTW, it also appears that your theory that the buses changed each time is false. While I did not head down to Hammond during the RBA/easygo days, this article from the NWI Times states that the RBA increased service, so that's probably why the RBA needed the cutaways.

[artthouwill]

Contracts can vary..  sometimes the govt agency owns the equipment and contracts out to a carrier to provide the drivers and service.  Other contracts can stipulate for the carrier to also provide the equipment.  Only in those cases the carrier owns the equipment.   In the ChicagoDash example  above, Valparaiso owns the buses that Free Enterprise operates with FE drivers.  If CUSA Indiana (Tri State) somehow won or was awarded the next vontract, the buses would be simply transferred from FE to CUSA, but Valpo still owns the buses.

[Busjack]

31 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Contracts can vary..  sometimes the govt agency owns the equipment and contracts out to a carrier to provide the drivers and service.  Other contracts can stipulate for the carrier to also provide the equipment.  Only in those cases the carrier owns the equipment.   In the ChicagoDash example  above, Valparaiso owns the buses that Free Enterprise operates with FE drivers.  If CUSA Indiana (Tri State) somehow won or was awarded the next vontract, the buses would be simply transferred from FE to CUSA, but Valpo still owns the buses.

True, and the contractors have never owned buses purchased with federal funds.

Sort of like some Coach USA subsidiary owned the Coach USA buses on 855 until Pace took over operations, but Pace owned paratransits and cutaways used on 895 while Coach USA operated it, but Pace never transferred the titles to Coach USA. In fact, Pace contracts have strict terms about ownership of the buses and Pace's right to reassign them:

Alternatively, the aborted solicitation for contracting out 877-888 said:

So, Andre's fantasy that contractors owned publicly supplied equipment is just that. The best the contractors can get is an allowance for capital cost of contracting (as Chicago paratransit operators get) for providing their own equipment.

[Pace831]

January minutes:

"Four New Flyer buses have been approved and ordered. They are scheduled to be produced in October, but it is possible that we could see individual buses delivered prior to that if the New Flyer production schedule permits.

IDOT continues to delay the RFP deadline for the cut-away buses that have been approved. If the contract is awarded in February, we could receive these buses in August."

[Busjack]

11 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

IDOT continues to delay the RFP deadline for the cut-away buses that have been approved. If the contract is awarded in February, we could receive these buses in August."

In that you previously noted that the New Flyers were off a Bloomington Consortium contract, I guess that's what happens when an agency is too small to go out to bid itself.

[Pace831]

Yesterday I rode the bus to Kankakee for the first time since last year's restructuring. The system is definitely more efficient, with more direct routing and only two timed transfer points. I got photos of most of the buses that were out that day.

#9801 I'm not sure if this is the "recently acquired" bus or if this vehicle is normally used in Metro Plus (paratransit) service and was borrowed for Route 2 on this particular day. EDIT: August board minutes say "We received two buses from Macomb at no charge to help us get through until our new buses arrive", so that's another possibility.

#400 Series Gillig

#500-Series Optima (ex-IndyGo)

#600-Series Optima (ex-CTA)

#800-Series IC (700 series are identical)

#806 Chevy Cutaway. This is the only vehicle of this type that Metro has. It is usually found on the University Park route.

#1003-5 International cutaways. These are wrapped and used for the Midway service.

In addition to Metro, SHOW BUS provides hourly service between the downtown Kankakee transfer center and Momence with a stop in Sun River Terrace. The fare is $1 each way and the bus can deviate from the route to accommodate prearranged trips.

Some updates from the board minutes:

March: "The contract for our medium duty buses has not yet been signed by the secretary of IDOT. If the buses can be ordered in April, we would still expect to have them by the end of this calendar year. The four New Flyer buses have been ordered and should be here in January or February."

April: "While the grant allows $97,500 per bus, the low bid came it at $84,000 per bus. This does not include head signs, fare boxes, etc., but IDOT will only allow $84,000 per bus. It will cost us $73,515 to get these buses ready for service. We have $35,000 from previously salvaged buses and $7900 from sign damage insurance money. In addition, we will be selling or scrapping current buses when new buses arrive."

May: "Last Friday, a contractor was selected for our new cut-away buses. All paperwork has been submitted for the vehicle purchase. Estimated lead time for delivery is 6 months."

July: "We are having serious issues keeping enough buses on the road to make service and are looking at the possibility of leasing 3 or 4 vehicles until our new buses arrive. IDOT has ok’d this as an eligible expense."

[Pace831]

While noting that the Midway stop was moved, I also saw that their new cutaways have been delivered. According to board meeting minutes they are getting vehicles from both New Flyer and El Dorado. I'll have to take a trip down there soon.

[andrethebusman]

Boy have they come a long way from the 10 cutaways they started with back in the 80's. At the time many doubted they would succeed as there had been no service in KK for over 20 years. 

[Pace831]

Things have changed a lot since my last visit. Most of the fleet has been replaced. The old Optimas and IC's are parked in the storage lot behind the Bourbonnais Metro Centre awaiting their fate.

These new El Dorado Aero Elite buses were delivered during the winter. The ones with the orange stripe on the side are for commuter routes and are equipped with luggage racks. The same order includes Aerotech buses with a red stripe for paratransit service. I saw numbers up to 1809 in fixed route service and 1812-13 on the commuter routes.

They also got four New Flyers. These are the first 40' buses in their fleet. EDIT: These are 35'.

I was surprised they chose to keep the Gilligs over the newer Optimas. They were the worst looking but they must have been in better mechanical condition. The two that I saw (402 and 403) have been rewrapped for the National Guard.

I also saw a few oddball vehicles that I hadn't before: 1102 and 1601 on routes 10 and 9, respectively.

The April board minutes say "Due to the lead time in approval and ordering of new vehicles, we will be applying for grant money to replace our 2004 Gilligs and to replace the four El Dorado commuter buses." I'm not sure which commuter buses they are referring to. 1003-1005 & 1601? Or does it really take so long that they are looking at replacing the new buses already?

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, Pace831 said:

Things have changed a lot since my last visit. Most of the fleet has been replaced. The old Optimas and IC's are parked in the storage lot behind the Bourbonnais Metro Centre awaiting their fate.

These new El Dorado Aero Elite buses were delivered during the winter. There are three variations: fixed route (has a blue stripe on the side), paratransit (green stripe), and commuter (orange stripe). The commuter buses are equipped with luggage racks. I saw numbers up to 1809 in fixed route service and 1812-13 on the commuter routes.

They also got four New Flyers. These are the first 40' buses in their fleet.

I was surprised they chose to keep the Gilligs over the newer Optimas. They were the worst looking but they must have been in better mechanical condition. The two that I saw (402 and 403) have been rewrapped for the National Guard.

I also saw a few oddball vehicles that I hadn't before: 1102 and 1601 on routes 10 and 9, respectively.

The April board minutes say "Due to the lead time in approval and ordering of new vehicles, we will be applying for grant money to replace our 2004 Gilligs and to replace the four El Dorado commuter buses." I'm not sure which commuter buses they are referring to. 1003-1005 & 1601 ???

What are the New Flyers for?  They look nice.  Interior gives us a sense of what Pace's New Flyers might look like. 

[Pace831]

30 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

What are the New Flyers for?  They look nice.  Interior gives us a sense of what Pace's New Flyers might look like. 

The New Flyers replaced Optimas. On Thursday they were running on routes 3, 4, and 7.

[WCR]

10 hours ago, Pace831 said:

They also got four New Flyers. These are the first 40' buses in their fleet.

 

 

 

Those are 35 footers if I'm not mistaken. Love the livery on those things.

[BusHunter]

Wow Pace is really going to outpace cta when it get those new flyers. Why has the cta been having so many problems with new bus deployment. The proterras will at least be coming this month we hope. CTA new flyers are starting to look old. Cant help but wonder if all this waiting for electric buses has hurt them or not. 

[WCR]

12 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Wow Pace is really going to outpace cta when it get those new flyers.

Pun intended?

[Pace831]

11 hours ago, WCR said:

Those are 35 footers if I'm not mistaken. Love the livery on those things.

Upon closer inspection, you are right. I was comparing it to the Gillig but those look to be 30’.

[artthouwill]

11 hours ago, WCR said:

Those are 35 footers if I'm not mistaken. Love the livery on those things.

Zooming in on the picture,  based on the two windows instead of three windows between the front and rear doors, I agree that these are 35' buses.

[Pace831]

Metro has not been collecting fares since March due to the pandemic.

Their ridership drop has not been as severe as CTA and Pace. There hasn’t been more than a 50% loss from the same time last year.

The University Park route resumed partial service September 14, with four round trips per day. It was using 12-seat vehicle #1101.

Another New Flyer has been ordered, and is expected to be delivered in January. I saw a New Flyer numbered X-41, which might be a leased unit until the new one arrives.

I overheard the radio calls about an incident involving a passenger who refused to put his mask over his nose. The driver was instructed to evacuate the bus and a transit officer was dispatched. Apparently the man decided to comply once he realized they were serious.