Red Light Rules for CTA Buses

[alex.scott]

Hey guys, quick ?

Do CTA buses need to stop at red lights with intersections that do NOT disallow right turns on red? Is there something in the manuel or rules & regulations that speaks to this?

Thanks

[Busjack]

Hey guys, quick ?

Do CTA buses need to stop at red lights with intersections that do NOT disallow right turns on red? Is there something in the manuel or rules & regulations that speaks to this?

Thanks

This was discussed before with regard to the Fox investigation of CTA buses being caught by red light cameras. Essentially, there is nothing exempting CTA from the state or city traffic laws.

Also, from recent reports about red light camera ticket spikes and the like, the main thing the cameras catch is not fully stopping before making a right turn on red.

It was also reported that CTA pays the red light camera tickets, although it imposes worse discipline on the drivers.

Now, if you are asking whether CTA buses, like school buses, are barred from making right turns on red at all, that's a different question.

[jajuan]

This was discussed before with regard to the Fox investigation of CTA buses being caught by red light cameras. Essentially, there is nothing exempting CTA from the state or city traffic laws.

Also, from recent reports about red light camera ticket spikes and the like, the main thing the cameras catch is not fully stopping before making a right turn on red.

It was also reported that CTA pays the red light camera tickets, although it imposes worse discipline on the drivers.

Now, if you are asking whether CTA buses, like school buses, are barred from making right turns on red at all, that's a different question.

From the way his question is worded, I got the impression that he was asking if CTA buses are barred from turning on red at all. If he is, it is an interesting question. I've been on many buses that came to complete stops and made right turns on red when traffic was clear. Some of those intersections were those with no turns on red between 7 AM and 7 PM and the rest had no restrictions. On the point about the red light cameras, one thing I've noticed with new operators being trained on routes is that the line instructors now tell them watch their speeds as they approach green lights so that they have enough time to stop safely if need be without triggering the cameras because tickets due to the cameras can mean big trouble.

[alex.scott]

I am more conerned with their being a rules as to if it is required by law (or if it a separate law requires CTA buses to come to a stop before turning right on red (where it is permitted). If anyone has any specific information to that affect that would be so greatly appreciated

[alex.scott]

I tried to find a rules and regulations for CTA drivers but to no such luck. If anyone has their hands on that or a section in reference to that, that would be much appreciated.

[Busjack]

I tried to find a rules and regulations for CTA drivers but to no such luck. If anyone has their hands on that or a section in reference to that, that would be much appreciated.

You probably have to become an employee to get that. I assume you are not. Otherwise, consult your trainer or supervisor. Or if you were run over by a bus, consult a personal injury lawyer.

I'm sure that the rules of the road are in the Secretary of State's manual by that name.

[Guest ctafan630]

State law requires a car to come to a complete stop before turning on red where permitted. I do not see why this wold be any different for buses.

I wonder where in the CTA manual or "Rules of the Road" manual that it allows cars or buses to make a right turn from the middle lane of traffic.

[artthouwill]

State law requires a car to come to a complete stop before turning on red where permitted. I do not see why this wold be any different for buses.

I wonder where in the CTA manual or "Rules of the Road" manual that it allows cars or buses to make a right turn from the middle lane of traffic.

I'm not quite sure where you are going with this. I haven't seen the manual, but I do know that CTA bus drivers for years have practiced what is called a buttonhook turn. From the right lane, the driver swings left away from the curb and then proceeds to make his/her right turn. This turn enables the bus to clear (most of the time) traffic turning left or going straight on the street the bus is turning onto.

However, in my training as a bus driver, I was told this was not recommended at all. A bicycle or motorcycle could squeeze into the gap created by the buttonhook and a crash could occur midturn. Depending on the intersection, the traffic conditions, and the bus I was driving, this meant sometimes having to wait for that traffic to move before I could complete the turn. If I was driving a bus with a tight turning radius or a short bus (like a 35') then I could complete that turn regardless of traffic (unless a parked car made it difficult).

If you are asking if a right turn is permitted from the middle lane, then the answer would probably be NO unless that lane is designated as another turning lane. Even then, I think the recommendation would be for buses to use the right hand most lane to turn. That would be also true if there were two left lane turn lanes, the bus would have to use the right hand most turn lane.

[jajuan]

I'm not quite sure where you are going with this. I haven't seen the manual, but I do know that CTA bus drivers for years have practiced what is called a buttonhook turn. From the right lane, the driver swings left away from the curb and then proceeds to make his/her right turn. This turn enables the bus to clear (most of the time) traffic turning left or going straight on the street the bus is turning onto.

However, in my training as a bus driver, I was told this was not recommended at all. A bicycle or motorcycle could squeeze into the gap created by the buttonhook and a crash could occur midturn. Depending on the intersection, the traffic conditions, and the bus I was driving, this meant sometimes having to wait for that traffic to move before I could complete the turn. If I was driving a bus with a tight turning radius or a short bus (like a 35') then I could complete that turn regardless of traffic (unless a parked car made it difficult).

If you are asking if a right turn is permitted from the middle lane, then the answer would probably be NO unless that lane is designated as another turning lane. Even then, I think the recommendation would be for buses to use the right hand most lane to turn. That would be also true if there were two left lane turn lanes, the bus would have to use the right hand most turn lane.

Yeah I've been seeing that buttonhook turn for as long as I can remember riding CTA buses. I've seldom seen Pace operators use it. And I figured buses turning from the right most left turn lave was what they prefer operators to use since I almost always see transit buses here turn from that lane like at that Van Buren to Ashland turn on #126 Harrison trips.

[strictures]

I'm not quite sure where you are going with this. I haven't seen the manual, but I do know that CTA bus drivers for years have practiced what is called a buttonhook turn. From the right lane, the driver swings left away from the curb and then proceeds to make his/her right turn. This turn enables the bus to clear (most of the time) traffic turning left or going straight on the street the bus is turning onto.

However, in my training as a bus driver, I was told this was not recommended at all. A bicycle or motorcycle could squeeze into the gap created by the buttonhook and a crash could occur midturn. Depending on the intersection, the traffic conditions, and the bus I was driving, this meant sometimes having to wait for that traffic to move before I could complete the turn. If I was driving a bus with a tight turning radius or a short bus (like a 35') then I could complete that turn regardless of traffic (unless a parked car made it difficult).

If you are asking if a right turn is permitted from the middle lane, then the answer would probably be NO unless that lane is designated as another turning lane. Even then, I think the recommendation would be for buses to use the right hand most lane to turn. That would be also true if there were two left lane turn lanes, the bus would have to use the right hand most turn lane.

I remember when the CTA had a dashed line painted on the streets where buses would turn.

That line was for a buttonhook turn.

I wonder how many dead bicyclists it took to eliminate that.

[Busjack]

I remember when the CTA had a dashed line painted on the streets where buses would turn.

That line was for a buttonhook turn.

I wonder how many dead bicyclists it took to eliminate that.

Probably not bicyclists, but running over some child at Sheridan and Foster resulted in the guards being put in front of the wheels. Ended up costing CTA $4.5 million. However it was a left turn.

Personally, I wonder about the mayhem that will occur where the bus lane crosses over the bike lane to get to the bus stop, such as on East 55th St.

[jajuan]

I remember when the CTA had a dashed line painted on the streets where buses would turn.

That line was for a buttonhook turn.

I wonder how many dead bicyclists it took to eliminate that.

I personally would like to see more cyclists use a lot more common sense than what I see a lot of them currently using. Not every accident involving a bike vs. a car, bus or truck is the fault of the person operating the motor vehicle. I see a lot of cyclists doing a lot of stupid moves on their bikes like shooting into intersections on a red light, riding in the wrong direction for that side of the street, darting right into the path of a CTA bus without signaling (usually from the bike lane to a left turn lane with no signal to the bus or other vehicle that move is about to be initiated), and playing a form of chicken with that bus when the bus is approaching a stop (speeding up in an attempt to zip past the bus's right side) even though the bus operator clicks the right turn signal in more than enough time to warn the cyclist the bus was going to cross the bike lane for the upcoming bus stop. It's been well past time in my opinion for more bicyclists to take responsibility for a lot of the dumb moves many of them know that they're doing and stop shifting the blame solely on motor vehicle drivers.

[garmon757]

I personally would like to see more cyclists use a lot more common sense than what I see a lot of them currently using. Not every accident involving a bike vs. a car, bus or truck is the fault of the person operating the motor vehicle. I see a lot of cyclists doing a lot of stupid moves on their bikes like shooting into intersections on a red light, riding in the wrong direction for that side of the street, darting right into the path of a CTA bus without signaling (usually from the bike lane to a left turn lane with no signal to the bus or other vehicle that move is about to be initiated), and playing a form of chicken with that bus when the bus is approaching a stop (speeding up in an attempt to zip past the bus's right side) even though the bus operator clicks the right turn signal in more than enough time to warn the cyclist the bus was going to cross the bike lane for the upcoming bus stop. It's been well past time in my opinion for more bicyclists to take responsibility for a lot of the dumb moves many of them know that they're doing and stop shifting the blame solely on motor vehicle drivers.

Man, I cannot disagree with you one bit. I've been through so much hell when it comes to me biking on the busiest streets. I've seen so many pricks (pedestrians and bicyclists) doing the most outrageous crap especially when I be on the two-way bike lanes on Dearborn downtown. The most aggravating crap I had to deal with it pedestrians being in the street while blocking the bike lanes on Dearborn when I have the green bike light. I could've seriously hurt myself and pedestrians because of their ill-advised stupidity!

[andrethebusman]

I tried to find a rules and regulations for CTA drivers but to no such luck. If anyone has their hands on that or a section in reference to that, that would be much appreciated.

CTA buses are NOT prohibited from turning right on red, but are to obey any "No turn on red" signs and stop before turning. In practical terms, it is not unusual for a bus turning into a narrow street to go out as far as it can on the green, then simply stop and wait until cross street gets the green so that cars blocking the bus's turn move out of the way and the bus then completes the turn. As long as the bus is already IN the intersection, it is legit to complete the turn after the light has turned red without triggering the camera. Personally, however, I will never, ever, under ANY circumstances, turn right on red in front of a camera be it in bus or my car. I simply do not trust the damn things. And if the light is about to go red (don't walk flashing, countdown under 10), I stop even if it is still green when I get to it. Better to get the a-hole behind me pissed than get a ticket.

[jajuan]

CTA buses are NOT prohibited from turning right on red, but are to obey any "No turn on red" signs and stop before turning. In practical terms, it is not unusual for a bus turning into a narrow street to go out as far as it can on the green, then simply stop and wait until cross street gets the green so that cars blocking the bus's turn move out of the way and the bus then completes the turn. As long as the bus is already IN the intersection, it is legit to complete the turn after the light has turned red without triggering the camera. Personally, however, I will never, ever, under ANY circumstances, turn right on red in front of a camera be it in bus or my car. I simply do not trust the damn things. And if the light is about to go red (don't walk flashing, countdown under 10), I stop even if it is still green when I get to it. Better to get the a-hole behind me pissed than get a ticket.

My sister learned that the hard way about the red light cameras in her car when she was still a relatively new driver. Light was still green but about to go red as she reached the intersection. So she thought she still had time to get through the intersection on no more than a yellow which she thought she still had passing through the intersection. But according to the camera that was there the light red even though she remembered the light still being a yellow light. Long story short she was greeted to a $50 ticket in the mail the following month. Now she does the very same thing you do, sit right there if don't walk is flashing with 10 seconds or less even if the light is still green.

[Guest ctafan630]

I'm not quite sure where you are going with this. I haven't seen the manual, but I do know that CTA bus drivers for years have practiced what is called a buttonhook turn. From the right lane, the driver swings left away from the curb and then proceeds to make his/her right turn. This turn enables the bus to clear (most of the time) traffic turning left or going straight on the street the bus is turning onto.

However, in my training as a bus driver, I was told this was not recommended at all. A bicycle or motorcycle could squeeze into the gap created by the buttonhook and a crash could occur midturn. Depending on the intersection, the traffic conditions, and the bus I was driving, this meant sometimes having to wait for that traffic to move before I could complete the turn. If I was driving a bus with a tight turning radius or a short bus (like a 35') then I could complete that turn regardless of traffic (unless a parked car made it difficult).

If you are asking if a right turn is permitted from the middle lane, then the answer would probably be NO unless that lane is designated as another turning lane. Even then, I think the recommendation would be for buses to use the right hand most lane to turn. That would be also true if there were two left lane turn lanes, the bus would have to use the right hand most turn lane.

I brought it up because on several of the routes that run through the loop, I have seen drivers that have not even made an effort to make a right hand turn from the the right lane. They make the right turn from the middle lane. On some occasions, they missed picking up the passengers at the stop completely or the passenger has had to walk out to the middle lane to board the bus.

[BusHunter]

Personally when faced with a red light camera and a no no turn on red sign, I would still not turn because the city has jived up the streets and you would probably get a ticket anyway and who wants to go to traffic court to prove they are right when all you have to do is just wait until the light turns green and turn. I would only turn on red with a bus when there is plenty of clearance like a nice big street or a absence of traffic like the 54th turn onto cermak, but I don't know if there is any no turn on red signs there and the suburbs tend to be critical of bus drivers.

[andrethebusman]

I brought it up because on several of the routes that run through the loop, I have seen drivers that have not even made an effort to make a right hand turn from the the right lane. They make the right turn from the middle lane. On some occasions, they missed picking up the passengers at the stop completely or the passenger has had to walk out to the middle lane to board the bus.

The main object in turning a corner is not to sideswipe something with the right side of the bus. This is an unavoidable chargeable accident. The instructors teach you to angle out when turning right so you don't do this. Like many things in life, though, when theory and practical reality conflict, go with practical reality.