Could CTA ever go Gillig?

[Pink Jazz]

I know some people here would probably laugh at the thought of CTA ever buying Gillig buses, however, considering that with Orion and NABI now out of the picture, we are only left with New Flyer, Nova, Gillig, and ElDorado.

While Gillig rarely seems to bid for major TAs, they have in recent years have been trying to make headway into larger and larger TAs, including submitting a bid for the joint Valley Metro/City of Phoenix contract (alongside New Flyer and ElDorado).

While CTA mostly buys either New Flyer or Nova, I was wondering, could we see Gillig in CTA's future if the price is right?

[mikeymc77]

The Gilligs here in Tucson are very nice. When comparing Suntran and CTA, its very obvious by the condition of some of the buses that the maintenance here in Tucson far outshines Chicago

[Pink Jazz]

The Gilligs here in Tucson are very nice. When comparing Suntran and CTA, its very obvious by the condition of some of the buses that the maintenance here in Tucson far outshines Chicago

Wow, interesting to meet another user in Arizona. I live in Gilbert, and most of the Valley Metro (RPTA, Tempe, and Phoenix) fleet is New Flyer with some older NABIs with the last NABIs (the RPTA's 60-BRTs) delivered in 2006. I know Gillig and ElDorado really want the joint RPTA/Phoenix contract badly, especially ElDorado who previously got screwed by the City of Phoenix after they cancelled a large order for Axess buses.

Even within the Phoenix area, it seems that the RPTA- and Tempe-owned buses are in better condition than those of the City of Phoenix, although Phoenix still has a lot of older buses compared to its peers. However, I don't have too much experience with the Phoenix fleet since I live in Gilbert (which is served by the RPTA and Tempe fleets).

Back to the topic, if Gillig wins part of the joint RPTA/Phoenix contract, maybe they will have their eyes set for Chicago.

[Busjack]

I know some people here would probably laugh at the thought of CTA ever buying Gillig buses, however, considering that with Orion and NABI now out of the picture, we are only left with New Flyer, Nova, Gillig, and ElDorado.

While Gillig rarely seems to bid for major TAs, they have in recent years have been trying to make headway into larger and larger TAs, including submitting a bid for the joint Valley Metro/City of Phoenix contract (alongside New Flyer and ElDorado).

While CTA mostly buys either New Flyer or Nova, I was wondering, could we see Gillig in CTA's future if the price is right?

The question is whether Gillig can meet CTA specs, including resistance to magnesium road salts, particular wiring diagrams and the like. Also, since it appears that CTA isn't sending out a procurement for 40 foot buses for another 5 years, whether it bid on the 60 foot proposal. That's right, like Millennium, Gillig doesn't have a 60 foot bus.

Price doesn't seem to be as much of an issue, as a Nova (after having most of its "we kindly requests" turned down) was able to meet the CTA spec at only about $80,000 a bus more than what Pace is paying for Axess buses.

Maybe if you want to play games, taking money on Gillig being in business in 2019?

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

I know some people here would probably laugh at the thought of CTA ever buying Gillig buses, however, considering that with Orion and NABI now out of the picture, we are only left with New Flyer, Nova, Gillig, and ElDorado.

While Gillig rarely seems to bid for major TAs, they have in recent years have been trying to make headway into larger and larger TAs, including submitting a bid for the joint Valley Metro/City of Phoenix contract (alongside New Flyer and ElDorado).

While CTA mostly buys either New Flyer or Nova, I was wondering, could we see Gillig in CTA's future if the price is right?

I think the all black windows (bus is an example from Seattle) of the newer Gillig buses would match very well with the current CTA paint job.

Busjack covered the hurdles Gillig would have to get past to get their buses on Chicago streets. Does anyone know any other cities besides Chicago and Seattle that have both Gilligs* and snow?

*as mentioned by andrethebusman and myself in another thread, a charter company has Gilligs in Chicago. Seattle has Gilligs in use as transit buses and airport shuttle buses.

[Pink Jazz]

I think the all black windows (bus is an example from Seattle) of the newer Gillig buses would match very well with the current CTA paint job.

Busjack covered the hurdles Gillig would have to get past to get their buses on Chicago streets. Does anyone know any other cities besides Chicago and Seattle that have both Gilligs* and snow?

*as mentioned by andrethebusman and myself in another thread, a charter company has Gilligs in Chicago. Seattle has Gilligs in use as transit buses and airport shuttle buses.

Most TAs in New York outside of the NYC area operate Gillig buses. Also, many TAs in Minnesota also operate Gilligs despite being the home state for New Flyer's United States operations.

Also, about the windows, New Flyer and Nova also offer similar frameless windows, although only New Flyer offers an openable version like the Gillig pic you posted as far as I know; I have only seen them completely sealed (not counting their use as emergency exits) on Nova buses.

[Busjack]

Does anyone know any other cities besides Chicago and Seattle that have both Gilligs* and snow?...

Rochester NY definitely has snow, and while they have some Gillig low floors, the current 5 year conract, for both 40 and 60 foot buses is with NF for Xcelsiors.

[Busjack]

...

Also, about the windows, New Flyer and Nova also offer similar frameless windows, although only New Flyer offers an openable version like the Gillig pic you posted as far as I know; I have only seen them completely sealed (not counting their use as emergency exits) on Nova buses.

All bus assemblers use Ricon windows, and any can be speced.

[Pink Jazz]

All bus assemblers use Ricon windows, and any can be speced.

Of course, I don't think it is possible to have frameless sliding sash windows.

BTW, I think Orion used a different vendor on the Orion VII, since they have squared corners.

[rvwnsd]

I think it has less to do with snow and cold than it does with the punishment a bus takes in a large city like LA, Chicago, or NYC. In California, San Diego and some of the smaller LA-area TAs (such as Santa Monica, Torrance,and Santa Clarita) use Gilligs, but LA County Metro has a combination of NABI and New Flyer. SF Muni is replacing their Neoplans with New Flyer and had ordered Orions before they went out of business. They do have a reserve fleet of Gillig Phantoms, but I believe they were originally SamTrans (Santa Clara County Transit). I don't know why, but I have a hard time visualizing a Gillig rolling down the streets of Chicago.

[twyztdmynd]

I have just moved to Phoenix Arizona Beginning of July and just rode a Gillig. I kind of like them. Pace , as you may remember, operated Gilligs in Waukegan. Yeah, it's not the city but they operated just fine in the snow. In my opinion they were better buses than the NABI's they have now. But, I do think RTA in general, is stuck in their ways with buying cheap and stick with the low bidders which is usually ElDo and New Flyer.

[Busjack]

Of course, I don't think it is possible to have frameless sliding sash windows.

BTW, I think Orion used a different vendor on the Orion VII, since they have squared corners.

Go back and look at the CitiView windows (Ricon brochure).

They are not frameless windows, but have the plexiglass on the outside of the frame. Those type of windows are on both Orion VIIs and Axess express buses Pace has. Inside, they have the same rounded rectangular frame as the standard windows.

From the brochure:

Ricon 3-Minute Windows are featured in both CityView hidden frame and standard frame designs. The two styles are available in various configurations to meet the exact requirements of each application. (emphasis added)

In any event, it is irrelevant to the thesis of this topic, since CTA uses hopper windows.

I bet next you'll say something like that some bus manufacturer only offers American Seating seats.

[Busjack]

I have just moved to Phoenix Arizona Beginning of July and just rode a Gillig. I kind of like them. Pace , as you may remember, operated Gilligs in Waukegan. Yeah, it's not the city but they operated just fine in the snow. In my opinion they were better buses than the NABI's they have now. But, I do think RTA in general, is stuck in their ways with buying cheap and stick with the low bidders which is usually ElDo and New Flyer.

The Waukegan ones were early Gillig Phantoms, which have been out of production for many years now.

When I was in Rochester, they had both Phantoms and Orion Vs, and except for the air conditioner cover, you couldn't tell the difference. The only thing peculiar to Pace was that they stuck with the Orion I when pretty much everyone else had dropped it. According to some sites, Pace tested an Orion V demonstrator, but apparently didn't like it.

Anything you mentioned was Pace, as RTA quit managing the services and buying equipment about 1984.

[Railwaymodeler]

Kenosha, with the exception of the buses used in school tripper service, is all Gillig. They seem to work quite well up here.

Some of the old hats at Pace North have told me about their experiences with the Gillig Phantoms. Being the first buses equipped new with wheelchair lifts, there were incidents where a bump in the road would cause the wheelchair lift to deploy, of course, slamming the bus to a halt. I got the impression that they drove fairly well, but rattled quite a bit as they went along.

[Busjack]

...

Some of the old hats at Pace North have told me about their experiences with the Gillig Phantoms. Being the first buses equipped new with wheelchair lifts, there were incidents where a bump in the road would cause the wheelchair lift to deploy, of course, slamming the bus to a halt. I got the impression that they drove fairly well, but rattled quite a bit as they went along.

The strange thing there was that they were lift equipped, but the later received Orion Is (8701-8923) were not, until mandated by the ADA in 1990 (2000 series).

[jajuan]

I think it has less to do with snow and cold than it does with the punishment a bus takes in a large city like LA, Chicago, or NYC. In California, San Diego and some of the smaller LA-area TAs (such as Santa Monica, Torrance,and Santa Clarita) use Gilligs, but LA County Metro has a combination of NABI and New Flyer. SF Muni is replacing their Neoplans with New Flyer and had ordered Orions before they went out of business. They do have a reserve fleet of Gillig Phantoms, but I believe they were originally SamTrans (Santa Clara County Transit). I don't know why, but I have a hard time visualizing a Gillig rolling down the streets of Chicago.

Well maybe not as a CTA bus, but as stated Gilligs already exist in Chicago by way of the Free Enterprise run Northwestern University shuttles between the main campus and downtown.

[Pink Jazz]

I have just moved to Phoenix Arizona Beginning of July and just rode a Gillig.

My guess is that you were on one of the free Scottsdale Trolley buses. They operate a fleet of Gillig hybrids.

[BusHunter]

I guess the NABI division that NF bought is slowly being phased out. LA Metro ordered 900 Xcelsiors from NF and that region used to be a strong hold for NABI's. So we probably won't be mentioning NABI too much longer.

http://www.metro-magazine.com/news/story/2014/04/new-flyer-opens-new-calif-facility,aspx

Gilligs mainly do small town operations. Could they even handle a 500-1000 bus order?

[Pink Jazz]

I guess the NABI division that NF bought is slowly being phased out. LA Metro ordered 900 Xcelsiors from NF and that region used to be a strong hold for NABI's. So we probably won't be mentioning NABI too much longer.

http://www.metro-magazine.com/news/story/2014/04/new-flyer-opens-new-calif-facility,aspx

Gilligs mainly do small town operations. Could they even handle a 500-1000 bus order?

Yep, the NABI line will be phased out and the NABI factory in Anniston, Alabama will be repurposed to build Xcelsiors:

http://newflyer.com/index/news-app/story.168

[artthouwill]

I guess the NABI division that NF bought is slowly being phased out. LA Metro ordered 900 Xcelsiors from NF and that region used to be a strong hold for NABI's. So we probably won't be mentioning NABI too much longer.

http://www.metro-magazine.com/news/story/2014/04/new-flyer-opens-new-calif-facility,aspx

Gilligs mainly do small town operations. Could they even handle a 500-1000 bus order?

Minneapolis is not a small town, and Metro's operation includes St Paul and a lot of suburbs. The weather up there is more brutal in the winter than Chicago, and the Gilligs hold up very well, so weather is not an issue. The question is what is the largest TA that Gillig serves?

[Busjack]

I guess the NABI division that NF bought is slowly being phased out. LA Metro ordered 900 Xcelsiors from NF and that region used to be a strong hold for NABI's. So we probably won't be mentioning NABI too much longer.

http://www.metro-magazine.com/news/story/2014/04/new-flyer-opens-new-calif-facility,aspx

Gilligs mainly do small town operations. Could they even handle a 500-1000 bus order?

Neither is news at this point. I had noted before the NF takeover of NABI that LA had ordered Xcelsiors, and then NF announced that the only heavy platform it would be building was Xcelsiors. Someone had also previously mentioned that the California completion facility was a condition of NF getting the LA contract.

You can find all of this on the New Flyer website.

[Pink Jazz]

The question is what is the largest TA that Gillig serves?

My guess that the largest of all time would be KCM in Seattle, however, they are phasing out their Gillig fleet and replacing them with New Flyers. Otherwise, the largest currently would probably be Miami-Dade Transit, who has been buying Gilligs in recent years (they are pretty much broke and are forced to buy buses from the FDOT contract which Gillig currently holds).

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

Most TAs in New York outside of the NYC area operate Gillig buses. Also, many TAs in Minnesota also operate Gilligs despite being the home state for New Flyer's United States operations.

Rochester NY definitely has snow, and while they have some Gillig low floors, the current 5 year conract, for both 40 and 60 foot buses is with NF for Xcelsiors.

Thanks for your input guys!

[rvwnsd]

Well maybe not as a CTA bus, but as stated Gilligs already exist in Chicago by way of the Free Enterprise run Northwestern University shuttles between the main campus and downtown.

That's what happens when I try to get clever. I should have said "I have a hard time visualizing a Gillig as a CTA bus." Midway Airport also uses them for the rental car shuttle.

[ctrabs74]

Minneapolis is not a small town, and Metro's operation includes St Paul and a lot of suburbs. The weather up there is more brutal in the winter than Chicago, and the Gilligs hold up very well, so weather is not an issue. The question is what is the largest TA that Gillig serves?

Seattle, even though their diesel Gilligs are being phased out (not sure about the Gillig electric trolley buses), followed by Minneapolis (I'm not counting Miami just yet, since the majority of their buses are NABI and they only have a handful, as I understand).