theraven Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Hey everyone, Long-time lurker, first-time poster, & all of that. Does anyone know if/when the 800-series NF (the Hybrid ones) are scheduled to leave the CTA fleet? I've ridden quite a few of these lately (including #806 last night operating as the 12-Roosevelt) and my general impression is that they are in pretty bad shape compared to even the not yet-rehabbed 1000-series. One thing I've noticed is that these models no longer seem to run in Hybrid mode - when I first started riding them back in '07 or '08, you could clearly hear the electric motor doing most of the work up to about 10-15mph. Nowadays I no longer hear that, only the gas engine. Is it possible that the roof-mounted batteries are completely dead? Any thoughts? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyerMCI Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Hey everyone, Long-time lurker, first-time poster, & all of that. Does anyone know if/when the 800-series NF (the Hybrid ones) are scheduled to leave the CTA fleet? I've ridden quite a few of these lately (including #806 last night operating as the 12-Roosevelt) and my general impression is that they are in pretty bad shape compared to even the not yet-rehabbed 1000-series. One thing I've noticed is that these models no longer seem to run in Hybrid mode - when I first started riding them back in '07 or '08, you could clearly hear the electric motor doing most of the work up to about 10-15mph. Nowadays I no longer hear that, only the gas engine. Is it possible that the roof-mounted batteries are completely dead? Any thoughts? Thanks. Welcome, lurker! And, I hope not, the 800's are one of my favorites. They should be due for retirement around 2017-2018, provided they maximize their full life time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Hey everyone, Long-time lurker, first-time poster, & all of that. Does anyone know if/when the 800-series NF (the Hybrid ones) are scheduled to leave the CTA fleet? I've ridden quite a few of these lately (including #806 last night operating as the 12-Roosevelt) and my general impression is that they are in pretty bad shape compared to even the not yet-rehabbed 1000-series. One thing I've noticed is that these models no longer seem to run in Hybrid mode - when I first started riding them back in '07 or '08, you could clearly hear the electric motor doing most of the work up to about 10-15mph. Nowadays I no longer hear that, only the gas engine. Is it possible that the roof-mounted batteries are completely dead? Any thoughts? Thanks. Well, the 800-Series are 2006 models, and their 12th year of service is 2018, but being that there's only ten and they are not receiving rehabs like their 1000-Series relatives, coupled with the fact that their sister 900-Series are also retired(mainly due to ISE-Siemens filing bankruptcy), they may, IMO be retired by 2018 if not sooner. It depends on if the CTA really needs those 10 buses on the street or can they part with them. I was surprised the 5800's were retired before the 5300's(they both got retired in 2009, but there were a few straggler 5300's left after the 5800's were retired). The 800 and 900-Series buses were test buses, just like the 5800-Series were experimental, hence why only 65 were ordered. The test results are how the CTA chose which powertrain to use for the 4000-Series articulateds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 9 out of the 10 are still in service, so it's not looking like CTA is trying to part with them all that quickly otherwise they would have gone bye bye with the 900s. They've always pretty much had a bit of a growl to them and sound no different now than when they first went into service. So not seeing how one is making a determination they aren't operating as the hybrids as they are unless one wants to say that other TA's DE40LF models with Allison hybrid drives are also no longer operating in hybrid mode any longer when those sound exactly the same as CTA's buses. And sw, for the umpteenth time it was ISE that went into bankruptcy NOT Siemens. ISE and Siemens are two separate AND distinct business entities. They just happened to work together to develop the hybrid drive that ran the 900s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Hey everyone, Long-time lurker, first-time poster, & all of that. Does anyone know if/when the 800-series NF (the Hybrid ones) are scheduled to leave the CTA fleet? I've ridden quite a few of these lately (including #806 last night operating as the 12-Roosevelt) and my general impression is that they are in pretty bad shape compared to even the not yet-rehabbed 1000-series. One thing I've noticed is that these models no longer seem to run in Hybrid mode - when I first started riding them back in '07 or '08, you could clearly hear the electric motor doing most of the work up to about 10-15mph. Nowadays I no longer hear that, only the gas engine. Is it possible that the roof-mounted batteries are completely dead? Any thoughts? Thanks. I don't know if the buses running as diesels full time is possible, but if it was, what keeps CTA from doing a rehab on these and making them diesel buses? The current contract says they will get lighting upgrades only, but the contract was also for 1,030 buses and I don't think #1482 is coming back, so possibly they might be able to do a few of them if it's possible. You know thinking ahead, when they rehab the #4000's, (those are hybrid also) they could always try to rehab the #800's then as it's sort of the same bus just different size. It's not really a question of parts, but age, but let me remind us that these #4000's are only 3 years newer than the #800's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwantae Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 9 out of the 10 are still in service, so it's not looking like CTA is trying to part with them all that quickly otherwise they would have gone bye bye with the 900s. They've always pretty much had a bit of a growl to them and sound no different now than when they first went into service. So not seeing how one is making a determination they aren't operating as the hybrids as they are unless one wants to say that other TA's DE40LF models with Allison hybrid drives are also no longer operating in hybrid mode any longer when those sound exactly the same as CTA's buses. And sw, for the umpteenth time it was ISE that went into bankruptcy NOT Siemens. ISE and Siemens are two separate AND distinct business entities. They just happened to work together to develop the hybrid drive that ran the 900s. Which one of the 800s are not in service? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 Which one of the 800s are not in service? #801 and #804 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 #801 and #804 As I recall though, only 801 is listed as being officially in storage and therefore completely out of service, which is the standard I was referring to when saying that one was officially not in service any longer. I know you reported having seen 804 at South Shops but that one still hasn't been officially listed in storage and off the roster as 801 has. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 As I recall though, only 801 is listed as being officially in storage and therefore completely out of service, which is the standard I was referring to when saying that one was officially not in service any longer. I know you reported having seen 804 at South Shops but that one still hasn't been officially listed in storage and off the roster as 801 has.It's like saying what's the point of #804 being down there. I don't know why but it wouldn't be down there for almost 2-3 months for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 You know thinking ahead, when they rehab the #4000's..... They might not rehab them. They would be more expensive to rehab as they are Hybrid technology and being a 60' articulated bus, a lot more would need to be replaced... They may just run them until about 2020-2021(12th year service life) and around 2019-2020, put out bids for about 200 60' buses. Not saying they can't be rehabbed, but the Cummins engine would need to be rebuilt and the HybriDrive System would require rebuild, as well as replacement of the batteries(Li-Ion?). Those won't be cheap, probably cheaper buying a new bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 And sw, for the umpteenth time it was ISE that went into bankruptcy NOT Siemens. ISE and Siemens are two separate AND distinct business entities. They just happened to work together to develop the hybrid drive that ran the 900s. Ok, so I put ISE and Siemens together again.... my bad. That's how they read on the bus, I new one of the two was bankrupt, but without doing searches again, I didn't remember which was still here and which wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 Well, the 800-Series are 2006 models, and their 12th year of service is 2018, but being that there's only ten and they are not receiving rehabs like their 1000-Series relatives, coupled with the fact that their sister 900-Series are also retired(mainly due to ISE-Siemens filing bankruptcy), they may, IMO be retired by 2018 if not sooner. It depends on if the CTA really needs those 10 buses on the street or can they part with them. I was surprised the 5800's were retired before the 5300's(they both got retired in 2009, but there were a few straggler 5300's left after the 5800's were retired). The 800 and 900-Series buses were test buses, just like the 5800-Series were experimental, hence why only 65 were ordered. The test results are how the CTA chose which powertrain to use for the 4000-Series articulateds. And one #5800 NF still remains operational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 Given all of sw's references to rehabs, it is interesting to note that spec CTA 1060-14 includes specs in section 5.1.1 for a rehab of Series 800, and in section 5.1.6 for CTA series 4000-4207. Both are subject to issuing an invitation for bids first, but it can't be said that they didn't contemplate rehabs. Also, the 2015 budget says at page 63 with regard to the 5 year capital improvement plan: Perform Mid-Life Bus OverhaulPurpose: The Bus Overhaul and Upgrade Program will allow the CTA to extend the useful life of buses by performing scheduled tasks that will result in decreased equipment downtime and a reduction in unscheduled maintenance.....Funding/Description of Proposed Work/Major Elements: The CTA has programmed $64.9 million for this CIP. Funding will provide for the continued overhaul of the New Flyer-Series buses and will provide for the expense of the overhaul of Articulated Hybrid Buses. (emphasis added) One also has to consider that 4000-4149 are on lease and can't be thrown away without paying off the finance company (apparently now PNC) and 4150-4207 are ARRA buses, and hence subject to the FTA 12 year service life rule. By comparison, 800s and 900s were supposedly subject to a "one year test," so it isn't clear under what constraints they are. More interesting is theraven's initial surmise about the batteries being dead, but most car magazines have said that has not been a problem, and it is probably cheaper to upgrade the batteries than throw away a bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theraven Posted March 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 Great replies, everyone. Perhaps the electric motor sound I was referring to was from the 900 series and I was conflating the two. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I misremembered a detail like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 Great replies, everyone. Perhaps the electric motor sound I was referring to was from the 900 series and I was conflating the two. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I misremembered a detail like this. A 900 would have been a consistent electric motor, because the diesel engine in a series hybrid only charges the batteries, and the electric motor provides all the propulsion. Since an 800 is a parallel hybrid, like most cars, and certainly in GM cars other than the Volt and ELR, it should sound like that kind of car. If it is working properly, it should have automatic startup and shut down, and since the electric motor provides an assist, it should sound more like a CVT than having distinct gears. It is questionable whether hybrid buses actually worked like that, but for that you should be listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 It's like saying what's the point of #804 being down there. I don't know why but it wouldn't be down there for almost 2-3 months for nothing. Do I need to remind you of #805 sir? Similar circumstance and that one is service right now today. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Do I need to remind you of #805 sir? Similar circumstance and that one is service right now today. Now calm down, that bus pulled a slick move!!! At least #804 isn't in the boneyard but let's just keep our fingers crossed! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 #809 is OOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyerMCI Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 #809 is OOS. Call the medic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Now calm down, that bus pulled a slick move!!! At least #804 isn't in the boneyard but let's just keep our fingers crossed! That just gets to Busjack's point made in another thread that some forget that South Shops is CTA's bus heavy maintenance facility and therefore used for more than rehabbing buses or serving as their graveyard after retirement until it's time to put them through the shredder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 #800 is OOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyerMCI Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 #800 is OOS. How many are left then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 How many are left then?6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmon757 Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 Forgot to mention that #802 and #809 are in the back yard at the shop. It's currently unofficial to determine if they're both retired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 1 hour ago, garmon757 said: Forgot to mention that #802 and #809 are in the back yard at the shop. It's currently unofficial to determine if they're both retired. I don't think #802 has been in service this year. #809 according to the roster has been OOS since April 2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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