Pace/CTA North Shore Coordination Plan

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, jajuan said:

The swap over of 54A to the new 641 doesn't happen until next year. Once it does, it's essentially the same ride except for the start at Jefferson Pk and running express from Foster to Touhy and the expanded hours. If you don't like that ride and still want to get to Old Orchard from Irving Park/Pulaski instead as CTA only provides during rush hour on the 54A, then there's always taking the 53 to Peterson and hopping on the realigned 215 which also isn't until next year.Plus the 97, 201, and 208 aren't going anywhere, meaning there will still be ways to get to that mall from the relevant CTA Blue, Yellow, Red and Purple Line stations as is possible now. ..

At least this explains his 53 reference.

That gets me to another point, which was also raised when CTA instituted 115 and Pace rerouted 353 around Pullman. Pace has a responsibility to connect with CTA, usually at major L stations. Pace doesn't owe @BusHunter or any other city resident a one seat ride to various suburban locations. It's CTA's responsibility to get him to Jefferson Park.As  you noted, apparently he has to transfer at Central or Pulaski. That isn't Pace's problem, no more than it is Pace's problem that a ride from 59th and King Drive to River Oaks is not direct.

I retract my "responding to the survey" point to that extent.

[jajuan]

33 minutes ago, Busjack said:

At least this explains his 53 reference.

That gets me to another point, which was also raised when CTA instituted 115 and Pace rerouted 353 around Pullman. Pace has a responsibility to connect with CTA, usually at major L stations. Pace doesn't owe @BusHunter or any other city resident a one seat ride to various suburban locations. It's CTA's responsibility to get him to Jefferson Park.As  you noted, apparently he has to transfer at Central or Pulaski. That isn't Pace's problem, no more than it is Pace's problem that a ride from 59th and King Drive to River Oaks is not direct.

I retract my "responding to the survey" point to that extent.

I'm also confused by the 2 hour reference because when all the changes are implemented over the next two years, the ride from the far north and northwest sides will still be one or two rides on average depending on the start. As you noted in regards to 54A being replaced by 641, the ride will be faster and without the four hour midday gap.

[BusHunter]

7 hours ago, jajuan said:

The swap over of 54A to the new 641 doesn't happen until next year. Once it does, it's essentially the same ride except for the start at Jefferson Pk and running express from Foster to Touhy and the expanded hours. If you don't like that ride and still want to get to Old Orchard from Irving Park/Pulaski instead as CTA only provides during rush hour on the 54A, then there's always taking the 53 to Peterson and hopping on the realigned 215 which also isn't until next year.Plus the 97, 201, and 208 aren't going anywhere, meaning there will still be ways to get to that mall from the relevant CTA Blue, Yellow, Red and Purple Line stations as is possible now. So I too am confused on what you find so wrong the upcoming changes. 

It doesnt help if it takes an hour to Jeff and an hour to old orchard from jeff. From your comments the leading way to the mall is from the east

The one point that sticks in my throat is this alignment to jeff. This is my problem. If only the service went to irving pk it would be.more accessible from the south. The 54 is totally cut off. How can you call it North Cicero if it doesn't connect to Cicero itself. 

I really don't see a difference in going south versus west the bus is traveling 1 mile and s half locally so why not just let it connect to 54 and go express at wilson. 

[MetroShadow]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

It doesnt help if it takes an hour to Jeff and an hour to old orchard from jeff. From your comments the leading way to the mall is from the east

The one point that sticks in my throat is this alignment to jeff. This is my problem. If only the service went to irving pk it would be.more accessible from the south. The 54 is totally cut off. How can you call it North Cicero if it doesn't connect to Cicero itself. 

I really don't see a difference in going south versus west the bus is traveling 1 mile and s half locally so why not just let it connect to 54 and go express at wilson. 

Because that’s still 3.5 miles into the city. Pace (logic aside) isn’t going to serve Sauganash. The Jeff is a major transit hub. Not to mention 94 and Cicero are a mess during the Peak. Not worth it  

If I’m coming from west or near northwest, you’d have to align your first seat with the Blue Line. You don’t gain much time if traveling by bus unless you’re heading to the Blue first and make up time. The 53/215 transfers are convenient (without the need to said 53 to Edgebrook).

Also: Milwaukee. There’s that. 

[Busjack]

11 hours ago, BusHunter said:

... The 54 is totally cut off. How can you call it North Cicero if it doesn't connect to Cicero itself. 

Pace won't. It'll call it 641 Jeff Pk/Skokie Limited. Look, for instance, how 626 and the Naperville Feeders were renamed.

The Summary said "New Route Name Pending" for each route.You gave an excuse for not reading the documents, but I am no longer buying it.

11 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I really don't see a difference in going south versus west the bus is traveling 1 mile and s half locally so why not just let it connect to 54 and go express at wilson. 

As I said above (if you have read what I posted), that's CTA's responsibility. Write whoever does planning there and ask them to reinstate the X54 routing.

And I hate to tell you: Irving Park at the Kennedy Expressway is Pulaski. Your fantasy bus won't connect with 54, either.

It does appear that @MetroShadow gave you the formal answer.

[BusHunter]

All I can say is let the riders speak. I can't help it if I'm taking the horse to water and he can't drink it. All im saying is that foster is not the fastest street in the world. Anybody that has worked the 92 can tell you of the traffic headaches on wb foster. This is why you see sometimes 20 or 30 waiting in the 92 bay at jeff. Add in 2 or 3 more routes and the congestion worsens. Even the slowest expys are faster than the street. 4 lanes are better than 1. They could actually serve the 54 exit at wilson enter at montrose and go to irving. They could wipe out tons of congestion too. 

For an experiment take a car through both routes and tell what is faster. I know because I drive these streets a lot i can tell you what is slower or faster. But see for yourself and maybe tou will understand my point finally.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

All I can say is let the riders speak

If you had read the Final Report (I guess riders speak but don't read) the boarding statistics show that they have spoken by not boarding on the segment you seem to be defending. Page 99 of the Final Report says 54A from Foster to Montrose is 63 boardings. I know you don't have numbers for Irving Park Blue Line, but that doesn't seem relevant if you are arguing a 54 transfer at Montrose.

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Even the slowest expys are faster than the street. 4 lanes are better than 1.

Not if it has to go through the Edens Jct. in traffic.The Edens Jct. sometimes backs up to Lake Cook Road, which is about the only justification for BOS north of Foster.

 

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

They could actually serve the 54 exit at wilson enter at montrose and go to irving.

So now you are saying to go a couple of more miles local in the city. You are so inconsistent that it is ridiculous.

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

For an experiment take a car through both routes and tell what is faster.

Is your Uber car going to pick up those transferring from 56, 81, 81W, 85, 88, 91, and 92 at Jefferson Park? That's the real issue, since the consultants said that one goal is connectivity.

You seem to be arguing all over the place because you have in your profile that you live in Dunning, and thus are transferring from 80. Admit it. As I indicated above, Pace has no obligation to serve that directly, as opposed to those making connections at Jefferson Park. Transfer to 91 at Austin.

[jajuan]

13 hours ago, BusHunter said:

It doesnt help if it takes an hour to Jeff and an hour to old orchard from jeff. From your comments the leading way to the mall is from the east

The one point that sticks in my throat is this alignment to jeff. This is my problem. If only the service went to irving pk it would be.more accessible from the south. The 54 is totally cut off. How can you call it North Cicero if it doesn't connect to Cicero itself. 

I really don't see a difference in going south versus west the bus is traveling 1 mile and s half locally so why not just let it connect to 54 and go express at wilson. 

Um it's going to take an hour to Jeff Park before and after (presumably you mean by bus since as @Busjack pointed out a ride on a Blue Line train itself from downtown to Jeff Pk should be no more than 20 to 25 mins). So what's your point other than unintentionally showing that 641 is a better option than keeping 54A? Anyone wanting to get to Old Orchard from the east who wants to get there quicker is more likely going to hop on the Yellow Line and take one of the Old Orchard bound buses from the Yellow Line. If they only want to do so on one ride, they're taking a 97 or 201 directly there. So your argument doesn't even stick from that point other than to show you're grasping at straws to keep ignoring that the Jeff Pk connections are meant to make better connections from the west. Like I pointed out yesterday, if anyone wanted to get to Old Orchard from Irving Pk Blue line can still take the 53 and swap to the 215 upon reaching the 53's Peterson terminus.

[artthouwill]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

All I can say is let the riders speak. I can't help it if I'm taking the horse to water and he can't drink it. All im saying is that foster is not the fastest street in the world. Anybody that has worked the 92 can tell you of the traffic headaches on wb foster. This is why you see sometimes 20 or 30 waiting in the 92 bay at jeff. Add in 2 or 3 more routes and the congestion worsens. Even the slowest expys are faster than the street. 4 lanes are better than 1. They could actually serve the 54 exit at wilson enter at montrose and go to irving. They could wipe out tons of congestion too. 

For an experiment take a car through both routes and tell what is faster. I know because I drive these streets a lot i can tell you what is slower or faster. But see for yourself and maybe tou will understand my point finally.

Why is it you think that PACE is responsible to connect to every CAR route inn the area?  Jefferson Park Blue Line connects to several CTA  and PACE foutes .  Convince the CTA that 54A was worth keeping full time (which you can't  and it isn't).  You yourself  said you really  don't go to Old Orchard, so why the big fuss?  If the demand was there, something would have been  done.  The plan being implemented  benefits the most people.   No transit agency will not cry about inconveniencing 50 people  if 500 will be happier and the potential to  add a hundred or more is there.

To use Busjack's earlier analogy, when CAR came up with new 111 King Drive route,it wasn't  Paces responsibility to make sure that the passengers along King Drive and all east west streets south of 95th have or maintain a one  seat ride to River Oaks.Transfrr at 95th Red Line, 95th and King Drive or 130th and Indiana.

[Busjack]

14 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

No transit agency will not cry about inconveniencing 50 people  if 500 will be happier and the potential to  add a hundred or more is there.

Exactly what the Final Report said under the Passenger Impacts division. "Overall, more than half of current passengers (53 percent) in the North Shore study area will experience an improvement in bus service." "In total, about two percent of current passengers will lose service due to restructuring and discontinuation of service in the North Shore area, ... It should be noted that in most cases, eliminated route segments are within a quarter mile to other existing or proposed route segments, and are likely equally if not more accessible to many of these existing passengers."

In fact, the consultants overcounted the discontinuations, as they had 200 affected on Route 423 in Winnetka and Northfield, but those will be covered by Route 424, i.e., they should not have been counted (unless the effect is that the frequency will be decreased to once an hour to reflect the existing frequency to Northbrook).

[BusHunter]

If 54a is considered a flop how can any service be considered a success if it travels the same corridor? I see I can't reach you guys so I will rest my case no problem. I'm just saying if I was still riding they lost my ridership on the corridor. If they lost my ride who else did they lose. The routing is ridiculous. If connections are all they care about then maybe the service should connect to rosemont. Im just saying what routing makes more sense to go west and serve the nw side or go south and serve the middle of the city. If it was faster and convenient then it's ok but they have a hard sell to make to this blogger. So of you want to drink the kool aid go right ahead.

[Busjack]

24 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

If 54a is considered a flop how can any service be considered a success if it travels the same corridor?

You just threw another strawman out there. Any documented "flop" was that there were only 63 passenger boardings between Montrose and Foister and 27 between Peterson and Touhy. CTA did not deem it worth it to spend 11,208 vehicle hours to serve that small of a market.

On the other hand, the Final Report says under Achievement of Guiding Principles:

641 Created to provide a fast, reliable and all-day travel option to address the gap in transit use between Skokie and Jefferson Park that was identified from the Market Analysis. The route will also augment transfer opportunities to future Pace Pulse Dempster service at Dempster-Skokie CTA Station.

Again, can't you read, or are you just so unwilling to do so?

24 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I'm just saying if I was still riding they lost my ridership on the corridor.

So, the way the Final Report would assess your passenger impact is 0 out of 0 for 0.00%. You aren't even one of the 63.

 

24 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

maybe the service should connect to rosemont [sic]. Im {sic} just saying what routing makes more sense to go west and serve the nw side or go south and serve the middle of the city.

I guess you never heard of the Blue Line to go further south. With regard as to Rosemont, there's the Blue Line to get there too. Or maybe you're on Mayor Daley II's call for the Mid-City Line, but if CTA won't build it, Pace certainly won't.

[BusHunter]

Well cta gave up on North Cicero so what boardings they have don't really matter. 

You don't need to insult me. This just makes me think less of you as a man. You seem to think you know a lot. I don't understand why they had a meeting they should have just asked you what to do. What I offer is just suggestion no need to work up a lather. When the project is dysfunctional don't say I didn't warn you. There's a reason buses don't go this way then turn that way and go the other way because we have sightseeing tour buses that do that. If people are turning to uber now what do you think they'll do when they are inconvienced. 225 is basically doing the same thing without the circuses of foster. Why ride anything else. 

Now see I didn't insult you did I? How hard was that? 

 

[MetroShadow]

Without being too technical, Jack is right on the displacement/double counting (but I’m going with Title VI as the reason that was mentioned)*

and without insult, if I am a planner on the Pace side, I’m not going to send what limited fleet I’ve got during the peak to get 63 riders (day/month?) when I’ve got the path to least annoyance with 500 other passengers at the Jeff. The travel time south of Foster would wipe out any savings because of the traffic issues on 94 and Cicero (I used to drive home on 90 and zigzag my way to Cicero, which is questionable).

Those 60 people will find some other way to get to Jeff or points north (1/2 mile spacing on crosstown buses isn’t bad). 

 

*wrote the framework for Pace’s Title VI, so if you want someone to blame, I’m far away enough to do so. 

[Busjack]

11 hours ago, MetroShadow said:

Jack is right on the displacement/double counting (but I’m going with Title VI as the reason that was mentioned)*

I sort of have a feeling that Title VI is not a big deal in Winnetka, Northfield, or Highland Park. But since Pace previously seemed kind of compulsive about it....

[MetroShadow]

2 minutes ago, Busjack said:

I sort of have a feeling that Title VI is not a big deal in Winnetka, Northfield, or Highland Park. But since Pace previously seemed kind of compulsive about it....

They have to do it. Granted, it won’t apply because it’s the North Shore, but they have to. Especially since the threshold for any change of service that affects >25% of the route or a new service altogether. 

 

[Busjack]

40 minutes ago, MetroShadow said:

They have to do it. Granted, it won’t apply because it’s the North Shore, but they have to. Especially since the threshold for any change of service that affects >25% of the route or a new service altogether. 

 

I guess the only way it affects 423/424 >25% is that frequency will go down 58%.

That brings up the other peculiarity that the current 423 schedule was driven by the former 228 schedule, except for Kraft trips, and Kraft is no longer there. 423 is to retain the approximately once every 30 minutes.

The other thing I noted from the Summary is that 422 retains short trips to Old Orchard but "during peak." That might be another Title VI consequence. One thing Pace might correct as a consequence of 422 no longer going to Northbrook Ct. is that the interval at Old Orchard eastbound should be evened out (instead of :05 and :17)

[MetroShadow]

8 hours ago, Busjack said:

I guess the only way it affects 423/424 >25% is that frequency will go down 58%.

That brings up the other peculiarity that the current 423 schedule was driven by the former 228 schedule, except for Kraft trips, and Kraft is no longer there. 423 is to retain the approximately once every 30 minutes.

The other thing I noted from the Summary is that 422 retains short trips to Old Orchard but "during peak." That might be another Title VI consequence. One thing Pace might correct as a consequence of 422 no longer going to Northbrook Ct. is that the interval at Old Orchard eastbound should be evened out (instead of :05 and :17)

Schedule changes aren’t at the whim of a T6 analysis; but you’re right if it comes down to frequency. I forgot what I wrote but, as a best practice, that frequency changes (more service or less), then it triggers an analysis. 

I might move this sub topic to the other forum as we don’t get too thrown off. 

[Tcmetro]

Looks like Pace is wasting no time in proceeding with the results.

 

http://pacebus.com/sub/news_events/public_hearings_upcoming.asp

 

Quote

Corrected Public Hearing Notice:

Pace Suburban Bus Division of the RTA Public Hearing on the Proposed Restructuring of Service on
Route 208 - Golf Road
Route 213 - Green Bay Road

Notice is hereby given that Pace, the Suburban Bus Division of the Regional Transportation Authority, will hold a public hearing on the proposed:

1) Realignment of service on Route 208 - Golf Road

To operate via Golf Road, Emerson Street and Dodge Avenue between Skokie Boulevard and Church Street;

To remove service on Skokie Boulevard between Golf Road and Church Street and on Church Street between Skokie Boulevard and Dodge Avenue.

2) Changes to Route 213 - Green Bay Road

To extend service to the Howard CTA Station via Chicago Avenue;

To improve service frequency between downtown Winnetka and Howard CTA Station;

To operate school-day only service between Howard CTA Station and Evanston Township High School;

To realign service between Northbrook Court and Highland Park to operate via Route 41;

To remove service on Green Bay Road between Lake Cook Road and Highland Park Metra Station;

These changes are proposed as a result of the North Shore Transit Service Coordination Plan and Market Analysis, a study completed in partnership with the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA). The public hearing is scheduled for:

Tuesday, April 24, 2018
4:30 p.m. - 6:30 p.m.
Levy Center, Linden Room
300 Dodge Ave.
Evanston, IL 60202

Any person wishing to comment on the proposed service changes is welcome to attend the public hearing. Prior to the public hearing, written comments may be submitted to Pace, External Relations, 550 West Algonquin Road, Arlington Heights, IL 60005 or to our "Public Hearing Comment Form".

Individuals with disabilities who plan to attend this hearing and who require accommodations other than transportation, and individuals who require translation into a language other than English to allow them to observe and/or participate are requested to contact Pace at (847) 364-7223 option 3 (voice) five business days prior to the scheduled hearing.

CTA also: https://www.transitchicago.com/notice-of-public-hearing-discontinuation-of-bus-route-205-chicagogolf/

Quote

Notice of Public Hearing: Discontinuation of Bus Route #205 Chicago/Golf

April 4, 2018

Notice is hereby given that the Chicago Transit Authority shall hold a Public Hearing on the proposed discontinuance of bus route #205 Chicago/Golf.  Pace routes #208 Golf Road and #213 Green Bay Road will be realigned to provide alternate service. This change is proposed as a result of the North Shore Transit Service Coordination Plan and Market Analysis, a study completed in partnership with Pace.  Details outlining the service that is proposed to be discontinued are available online at www.transitchicago.com or in the CTA Main Office, 2nd Floor, 567 W. Lake St., Chicago, IL  60661.

You are invited to attend the public hearing that will be conducted at the date, time and location below: 

Tuesday, April 24, 2018
4:30 pm – 6:30 pm
Levy Center
Linden Room
300 Dodge Avenue
Evanston, IL  60202

A presentation will be made regarding this proposal. A Spanish Interpreter will be available on site.

The location is accessible to individuals who use wheelchairs or other mobility devices. A general American Sign Language Interpreter will be available. Individuals with disabilities who require other accommodations should contact Michael Connelly, Vice President, Scheduling and Service Planning, at mconnelly@transitchicago.com, 312-681-4200 or Relay by Tuesday, April 17, 2018.

Written comments may be submitted up to Monday, April 30, 2018, by writing to the following address: 

Gregory P. Longhini
Assistant Secretary of the Board
Chicago Transit Authority
567 W. Lake Street
Chicago, IL  60661

Email comments may be submitted up to Monday, April 30, 2018, by writing to glonghini1@transitchicago.com.

 

[jajuan]

3 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

Looks like Pace is wasting no time in proceeding with the results.

 

http://pacebus.com/sub/news_events/public_hearings_upcoming.asp

 

CTA also: https://www.transitchicago.com/notice-of-public-hearing-discontinuation-of-bus-route-205-chicagogolf/

 

Well since all these are Phase 1 changes and Phase 1 they both hope to implement Fall of this year, they had to start the hearings soon anyway. 

[andrethebusman]

I got an idea - extend 54 via Cicero-Foster to Central (the 290 short loop). Gives 54 a decent north end destination.

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

I got an idea - extend 54 via Cicero-Foster to Central (the 290 short loop). Gives 54 a decent north end destination.

I mentioned something like that earlier. However, that's Jeff Park or FG, not Touhy.

However, the question is whether CTA is interested (it appears not) or only wants to save all of the 11,000 service hours. And if you really meant Cicero Ave. to Touhy, CTA certainly has no interest in serving that.If you meant on Central between Foster and Touhy. that seems adequately covered  by 85A and the revamped 225.

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, jajuan said:

Well since all these are Phase 1 changes and Phase 1 they both hope to implement Fall of this year, they had to start the hearings soon anyway. 

Looks like that way. Note that both hearings are at the same place and time. About the only losses of service there are CTA on Grant and Pace on Church and in Highland Park. One is only temporary as 215 will eventually move from Golf to Church between Skokie Blvd. and Crawford.

[andrethebusman]

13 hours ago, Busjack said:

I mentioned something like that earlier. However, that's Jeff Park or FG, not Touhy.

However, the question is whether CTA is interested (it appears not) or only wants to save all of the 11,000 service hours. And if you really meant Cicero Ave. to Touhy, CTA certainly has no interest in serving that.If you meant on Central between Foster and Touhy. that seems adequately covered  by 85A and the revamped 225.

Yes I meant Cicero-Touhy. As it is Cicero/Montrose becomes somewhat of a dead end. Maybe to Jeff might do something, but Jeff will get very crowded soon. Running up to Touhy gets you connections east, west, north plus the shopping area and industrial area. If reducing pay hours is all that matters, considering 54A goes away, should still accomplish that, though not as much...

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

Yes I meant Cicero-Touhy. As it is Cicero/Montrose becomes somewhat of a dead end. Maybe to Jeff might do something, but Jeff will get very crowded soon. Running up to Touhy gets you connections east, west, north plus the shopping area and industrial area. If reducing pay hours is all that matters, considering 54A goes away, should still accomplish that, though not as much...

But as the Final Report indicates, that's 11.000 hours to serve 63 passengers (note they count both boardings and alightings). Maybe half of that if it only goes to Touhy, but 54 runs every 9-11 or 8-10 minutes while 54A runs every 30 minutes rush hour only, so the service hours balloon unless 2/3 still turn at Montrose. That kind of connection isn't worth anything.

I don't know how crowded Jeff Park gets adding 215 and 641 (225 is a wash with 226 and Pulse is maybe 2 buses an hour over 270), but X54 used to go there, and 56A no longer does. I bet with 215 scheduled 20 minutes peak, 641 every 30 minutes, several Pace routes will share the same bay.

But, in any event, reading the Final Report indicates that CTA's only concern is saving vehicle hours. Nothing wrong with that. While Pace might listen to something compelling at the hearings, CTA won't listen to anything. But since Touhy and Cicero is in Lincolnwood, it shouldn't.