Return of the X, Rapid, BRT-Lite, Limited Stop Routes (was X9, X49) Thread

[BusHunter]

I suppose, then that the hot dog stands should bring an FOIA request to see the GPS boarding statistics at those stops.

However (considering sw's posts) the Jewel and the sheltered workshop on Lincoln couldn't save the 11 bus, and the rationale for these locals is a stop every 1/4 mile, I guess the stands will have to hope that those consuming the double chili cheese fries don't have a heart attack walking the extra block. It isn't like there is any shortage of hot dog stands in Chicago.

The way I see it, the local ridership should drop way down. When the locals are acting like express' what is the sense in riding the locals? You almost have the same bus on both local and express. In fact I see ridership increases riding the cross street buses. At Waveland why walk up to Grace when you can walk to Addison and ride whatever comes first. The riders who will really hurt are the ones that don't have that option like at 42nd/western. Nearest bus is more than a block away. Of course if you consider some of those riders may be walking to their former stops like from rockwell, why would they walk another block. The #94's two blocks away. So the smart consumer or rider will be looking at their options and taking the more convenient route.

Edited November 12, 2015 by BusHunter

[Busjack]

The way I see it, the local ridership should drop way down. When the locals are acting like express' what is the sense in riding the locals? You almost have the same bus on both local and express. In fact I see ridership increases riding the cross street buses. At Waveland why walk up to Grace when you can walk to Addison and ride whatever comes first. The riders who will really hurt are the ones that don't have that option like at 42nd/western. Nearest bus is more than a block away. Of course if you consider some of those riders may be walking to their former stops like from rockwell, why would they walk another block. The #94's two blocks away. So the smart consumer or rider will be looking at their options and taking the more convenient route.

Which reinforces my point, which you repeatedly disputed, that the frequency of the "locals" is going to be reduced. The only debate in a rider's mind is whether to walk 1 block or 2 blocks more from the hot dog stand (or find a hot dog stand closer to a major intersection).

[Busjack]

To avoid stuff like the Pace 305 discussion, I downloaded the current 9 and 49 schedules, so to be able to compare them after Dec.21.

[jajuan]

Thanks. Although I saw peak only, I did not see the source of your 15 min service interval (does not come up with a Control-F of the webpage).

A couple of things it clarifies:

• X49 only goes to 79th, so the headsign to The Plaza was b.s.
• As I thought, stops, at least for the combined express/local will be on the far side (again, at least after TSP is installed).
• Statements about how much the locals will be sped up by eliminating half the stops mitigate how much additional equipment might be needed.

 

Well I'm sure they were just using the old signs from when the routes were last in service, so "The Plaza" reading most of us should have just taken with a grain of salt anyway, especially considering that the mall no longer exists.

CTA posted a project webpage for the X9 and X49 this week. X9 runs from Sheridan Red Line to 95th and X49 runs from Berwyn to 79th. 15-min service, peak only. CTA is also conducting aggressive stop eliminations on the local routes, to 1/4-1/6 mile instead of the current 1/8 mile spacing. Because of this, the express routes won't be significantly quicker than the locals.

Further speed improvements will happen when TSP is implemented and more stops are moved to the farside of the intersection.

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/planning/AshlandWesternBusImprovements2015.pdf

http://www.transitchicago.com/ashlandwesternx/

My surmise that they were timing the routes' reintroduction with the start of the winter pick got verified by the project page with their reporting the routes restart December 21, being that the services will be peak only scheduled against the winter pick's start date of December 20 as I had guessed.

[jajuan]

DNAinfo.com has a story about the stops they want to eliminate on the Western and Ashland corridors. There's quite a few stops eliminated. In some spots the locals almost could be characterized as express. To me it seems like too many stops are eliminated. What I would do is make all the major stops far side stops which they will be doing here, but I would take it further and eliminate a few major stops, like do we need a #49 Armitage, Milwaukee and Blue line stop? I'd eliminate Milwaukee Sb and armitage Nb. Plus certain spots on the map are getting hit hard like practically north of belmont on western to montrose stops are every two blocks, where nothing is eliminated much on the west side but then parts of the south side get eliminated stops and parts maintain stops. Do we need a Fulton or Lake or Monroe stop on the #49 or stops outside the BN rail intermodal yard? #49 I would strongly look at Industrial areas to eliminate stops. Do we need a 32nd or 33rd street stop? Here's the link

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20151102/lincoln-square/cta-cut-several-western-avenue-bus-stops-lincoln-square-north-center

(trouble seeing the stops just zoom up the map on the enclosed link they provide)

Looking at what's going to stay among the local stops on Western on the west side, in addition to Busjack's thought that stops near Fulton remaining being due to it being an industrial area and that's where the industrial district workers disembark, it appears to me the other stops being maintained are areas on Western that's undergone or still in the process of undergoing a demographic change along with a bit of gentrification. That area between Roosevelt and Harrison for example is seeing a change over to folks living there now increasingly being UIC staff and students, especially those from UIC medical related programs with that area being close to the portions of the Medical District overseen by UIC Hospital and Medical Center. That area near the expressway and Jackson, outside of connecting to the Blue Line and 126, there's starting to be more a mix of middle income blacks and some students and staff from the remaining portions of the Medical District not covered by UIC. Then you have the redevelopment upward to Madison connected with the relatively new Pete's Market and surrounding shopping area at Madison and Western. And that area between Madison and Lake had already been undergoing a demographic change.for quite a number of years.

[Busjack]

I think the artic order that is probably indefinitely suspended unless CTA pulls it back out in the future was probably for BRT. But I think ultimately CTA gave up on BRT service, either because of costs for construction of lanes and stations or complaints from citizens and Aldermen.

If they're bringing back the X49 and X9, this might be the nail in the coffin for the BRT program that was planned. It would be service overload to have, for example, 9, X9 & BRT9.

They wouldn't have the 3 routes, but despite the budget not killing the BRT9, the adverse community input (including that by the retried traffic engineer) indicates that they know the feds won't fund it, so CTA is doing what it can. Therefore, your conclusion is ultimately correct.

[BusHunter]

CTA maintains the Ashland BRT is not dead. If they are going through all this for x service, queue jumps and longer traffic signals for buses, the only difference from brt is no stations. Wouldn't it be something if they said ok, we'll change brt stations in the center to curb side service stations. Then everyone can make a left and everyone is happy. It would be no different than the #J14. Perhaps the key is to eliminate parking and give that to brt, they could always just build parking lots like they did on Cicero on the north side.

Edited November 17, 2015 by BusHunter

[Busjack]

CTA maintains the Ashland BRT is not dead. If they are going through all this for x service, queue jumps and longer traffic signals for buses, the only difference from brt is no stations. Wouldn't it be something if they said ok, we'll change brt stations in the center to curb side service stations. Then everyone can make a left and everyone is happy. It would be no different than the #J14. Perhaps the key is to eliminate parking and give that to brt, they could always just build parking lots like they did on Cicero on the north side.

The main difference, besides $160 million and the stations is losing the left lane, and, as you mentioned, losing left turns. The community objected to that, but certainly won't object to the X9.

Like i said, CTA won't declare the BRT dead because some consultants still need a pay check. Apparently, like the Mid-City Line, it is up to the consultants to declare it dead.

[Juniorz]

Sneak peek of the X9 and X49 return! 

[BusHunter]

While we're on the subject of the X service, I did a bus count check via Bustracker yesterday at 4:45PM, the heart of the rush and counted 38 #9's and 35 #49's. So now when the X service starts back we'll have to see if that many buses are being used or not on either street counting locals and express. Then we should know if the X service requires more buses or not.

Since they only have 2 weeks until the startup of X service, we should soon start seeing them put up X signs and in some cases taking down some local ones. There will probably be some confusion at first, but over time the riders will adjust to the changes.

[Busjack]

11 hours ago, BusHunter said:

we should soon start seeing them put up X signs and in some cases taking down some local ones. There will probably be some confusion at first, but over time the riders will adjust to the changes.

Question there is whether they will initially just tape over signs with a notice that the stop is no longer effective Dec.20.

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Question there is whether they will initially just tape over signs with a notice that the stop is no longer effective Dec.20.

It's probably easier to just remove the signs. I'd do that last after the X ones were added. Depends on how much of a sign crew do they have versus signs replaced, but it could probably be done in a few days. That's two long routes, probably equal to 4 e-w ones.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Depends on how much of a sign crew do they have versus signs replaced, but it could probably be done in a few days. That's two long routes, probably equal to 4 e-w ones.

I was going to say (based on someone just getting run over) about liability if the bus doesn't stop at a posted stop.....

.....but come to think about it, CTA does a commendable job of keeping the bus stop signs up to date. For instance, the signs were changed or removed quickly on the Crowd Reduction Plan changes.

[geneking7320]

Forgive me if I've this before but those routes should be named 9L and 49L because they are limited stop routes.

[Busjack]

27 minutes ago, geneking7320 said:

Forgive me if I've this before but those routes should be named 9L and 49L because they are limited stop routes.

Arguably the locals should be, since they stop every 2 blocks. Otherwise it appears that CTA has done away with limiteds, and formally did so when it changed 3L to X3.

[TaylorTank1229]

Schedules for the X9 and X49 are now on the CTA website.

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/bus_schedules/X9.pdf

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/bus_schedules/X49.pdf

[Busjack]

29 minutes ago, TaylorTank1229 said:

Schedules for the X9 and X49 are now on the CTA website.

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/bus_schedules/X9.pdf

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/bus_schedules/X49.pdf

The strange thing I noted is that the first few X9 afternoon southbound trips on Wednesday are about 3-5 minutes later than the other weekdays. School trips or interlines?

Looks like it takes a minimum of 22 buses on X9 and 24 on X49. That's half of BusHunter's equation. However, while the pulldown on the Schedules page has X9 and X49  leading to "Service on this route begins December 21, 2015. (It is not in service until that date.)" nothing yet indicates if the 9 and 49 schedules will be changed.

Finally, intervals of 4-10 minutes seem very frequent for the Xs to be merely supplementary.

[Juniorz]

The clock returns!

[Juniorz]

Advanced Schedules Effective December 20-21

http://www.transitchicago.com/travel_information/service_changes/201512timetables.aspx

[busfan2847]

5 minutes ago, Juniorz said:

Advanced Schedules Effective December 20-21

http://www.transitchicago.com/travel_information/service_changes/201512timetables.aspx

Except none of the links work.

 

[ajm522]

1 hour ago, busfan2847 said:

Except none of the links work.

 

Something happened when they went to pick for this pick,  word is that there is a chance they will call it back and it won't into effect. That could be why or its just tech problem. 

[jajuan]

On 12/10/2015 at 9:31 PM, TaylorTank1229 said:

Schedules for the X9 and X49 are now on the CTA website.

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/bus_schedules/X9.pdf

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/bus_schedules/X49.pdf

Spotted that yesterday and downloaded them into my phone in prep for when I used either (mostly Asland Express in my case). As for the smaller intervals that Busjack mentioned let's keep in mind with the local stop reductions, the locals are supposed to be up to about 10 mins faster than current service  in ideal conditions along with the expresses being up to 15 faster over now. So that does change the math a bit and might be a factor somehow. Plus 4 to 10 mins falls in line with what current service is before the changes are effective on next Sunday for the locals and Monday for the express runs, which is why I suspect the theoretical time savings per trip over now has some play here. 

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, jajuan said:

As for the smaller intervals that Busjack mentioned let's keep in mind with the local stop reductions, the locals are supposed to be up to about 10 mins faster than current service

My comment was only with respect to BusHunter's contention that they will need more buses to run both the local and express. Total travel time would be relevant to X9 only needing 22 buses, not 30, but with this schedule it needs 22 (using the method of  how many lines are between when a bus leaves 95th and can get back to 95th to start another northbound trip),

The current 9 schedule makes that hard to do, because there are many "then every 8 to 21 minutes from 104th/Vincennes and every 5 to 11 minutes from 95th/Ashland until" blocks.

Speaking of frequency, that means that X9 would be more frequent than the current 9, but that doesn't indicate what 9 will be in 2 weeks. As pointed out above:

12 hours ago, busfan2847 said:

Except none of the [Updated Bus Route Timetables Eff. December 20, 2015] links work.

 

Still don't.

[BusHunter]

52 minutes ago, Busjack said:

My comment was only with respect to BusHunter's contention that they will need more buses to run both the local and express. Total travel time would be relevant to X9 only needing 22 buses, not 30, but with this schedule it needs 22 (using the method of  how many lines are between when a bus leaves 95th and can get back to 95th to start another northbound trip),

The current 9 schedule makes that hard to do, because there are many "then every 8 to 21 minutes from 104th/Vincennes and every 5 to 11 minutes from 95th/Ashland until" blocks.

Speaking of frequency, that means that X9 would be more frequent than the current 9, but that doesn't indicate what 9 will be in 2 weeks. As pointed out above:

Still don't.

Really you would have to figure the count at the exact same time I did, which you basically have done. I've checked in the morning like around 8:30 - 8:45 and discovered the counts were less, my afternoon counts were 38 and 35 with more on Ashland, where the morning counts were like 30 and 28. They must start pulling in at 8 in the morning, so I would probably get better results at 7:45.

On jajuan's point with the locals having stops eliminated, these buses are going to run faster now and the gap between local and express will shrink. Where it was 10-20 minutes per service hour difference, it might now be half that. So maybe they could get away with a few lesser buses but still they would probably need up to 20 for the locals. Now if only we could find out the schedules.

This concept could be shared for the standard lines everywhere. This is where Pace shines, they don't stop everywhere like CTA does. Cta just seems to choke up at certain areas because there are too many stops.

Gene king has got me thinking here about Limiteds. Maybe the secret in making routes like #79 and #77 faster is not to give them X service, but give them limited service. They could make every other bus stop a limited stop and it would miss certain local stops like every other stop on the side streets. Now that's a concept that might work.

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

They could make every other bus stop a limited stop and it would miss certain local stops like every other stop on the side streets. Now that's a concept that might work.

Not sure whether you are proposing A-B stops (like what were on the L).

Otherwise, Gene's point was that traditionally it wasn't an express if it wasn't on an expressway (although there were exceptions). Whatever you called the 77 or 79 bus, if the stopping pattern were the same as on X9 and X49, the express would have to get around the local, but Belmont and 77th between State and Stony Island are narrow and congested.