Random CTA

[dailycommuter62]

Saw a NF today on Division that on the signs had CONGRATULATIONS, HAPPY RETIREMENT flipping through, how long have they had this reading on the signs?

[Shannon tahoeppv]

Our electric bus junk most don't go out 🤣🤣 & we then moved all of our long term hold buses 

[artthouwill]

5 hours ago, Shannon tahoeppv said:

Our electric bus junk most don't go out 🤣🤣 & we then moved all of our long term hold buses 

At this rate CTA will have to find new funding sources for diesel buses. What's the point of buying electric buses?  I guess if they don't run,  they achieve zero emissions 

[Shannon tahoeppv]

18 hours ago, artthouwill said:

At this rate CTA will have to find new funding sources for diesel buses. What's the point of buying electric buses?  I guess if they don't run,  they achieve zero emissions 

🤣🤣 its a joke bro 

[FarNWSider773]

These images compare the peak and off-peak headways for CTA's bus routes in 1985 vs. 1990.

https://imgur.com/a/former-cta-bus-route-headways-c02t6oN

Source: https://rtams.org/sites/default/files/digital_documents/RTA_SouthCorridorTransitStudyPhaseII-TechMemoTASK4_1993.pdf

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, FarNWSider773 said:

These images compare the peak and off-peak headways for CTA's bus routes in 1985 vs. 1990.

https://imgur.com/a/former-cta-bus-route-headways-c02t6oN

Source: https://rtams.org/sites/default/files/digital_documents/RTA_SouthCorridorTransitStudyPhaseII-TechMemoTASK4_1993.pdf

Don't let @strictures see the frequencies of the 22 Clark.

Note that during that time Archer and Limits garages were still in use.  Also there were only about 145 artics and the Orange Line wasn't in existence.   The North/South, West/South  and the West/ Northwest lines had 24 hr rail service.   Lastly the population was hovering around 3 million people back then. 

[FarNWSider773]

30 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Note that during that time Archer and Limits garages were still in use.  

 

Oh wow, I didn't know about those garages. Where exactly in the city were they located?

 

[Sam92]

14 minutes ago, FarNWSider773 said:

 

Oh wow, I didn't know about those garages. Where exactly in the city were they located?

 

Limits-Clark/Diversey: rts: 8,9,22, 36, 37, 145, 151,157 and some others I probably missed.

Archer- Pershing/Archer rts: 35, 39, 43, 50, 51, 94, 63W, 165, 55A/N 120/122 (AM) 129(?), U of C routes

[Sam92]

50 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Don't let @strictures see the frequencies of the 22 Clark.

 

To be fair those were with 40fts 🤣

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

...

Note that during that time Archer and Limits garages were still in use.  Also there were only about 145 artics and the Orange Line wasn't in existence.   ...

There were also about 2400 buses then, as opposed to approx. 1900 now. If even Jarrett Walker's proposal to go back to 2007 service  were implemented, I figure CTA would need 200 more buses and places to store them, and the only places that seem to have the room are FG and 77th, and then CTA would need more maintenance staff, for the additional buses, as well as to clear the apparent backlog,

2 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Limits-Clark/Diversey: rts: 8,9,22, 36, 37, 145, 151,157 and some others I probably missed.

Archer- Pershing/Archer rts: 35, 39, 43, 50, 51, 94, 63W, 165, 55A/N 120/122 (AM) 129(?), U of C routes

Archer: It depends as of when, but you left out the obvious one--62. If it's going back to @FarNWSider773's 1985, various Archer and Stevenson express routes (62A, 99 Stevenson Expwy via Pulaski or Cicero, 99M, 162, and 164). Also, 47, 53A and 54B were out of Archer at one point or another.

2 hours ago, Sam92 said:

To be fair those were with 40fts 🤣

There were some 7000s on Clark and (now unbelievably) Lincoln.

But that raises the question whether preserving capacity by substituting artics does any good, if the off-peak frequency goes down from 7.5 to 12-20, discouraging ridership.

[Sam92]

31 minutes ago, Busjack said:

There were also about 2400 buses then, as opposed to approx. 1900 now. If even Jarrett Walker's proposal to go back to 2007 service  were implemented, I figure CTA would need 200 more buses and places to store them, and the only places that seem to have the room are FG and 77th, and then CTA would need more maintenance staff, for the additional buses, as well as to clear the apparent backlog,

Archer: It depends as of when, but you left out the obvious one--62. If it's going back to @FarNWSider773's 1985, various Archer and Stevenson express routes (62A, 99 Stevenson Expwy via Pulaski or Cicero, 99M, 162, and 164). Also, 47, 53A and 54B were out of Archer at one point or another.

There were some 7000s on Clark and (now unbelievably) Lincoln.

But that raises the question whether preserving capacity by substituting artics does any good, if the off-peak frequency goes down from 7.5 to 12-20, discouraging ridership.

As far as the first point. They'd probably have to try and get their hands on the fisk site to make that happen. 77th and FG have room but some routes would probably have to move garages so they can use they hours saved by having more garages near routes to pay for the service (especially routes closer in).

As far as Clark ridership that probably depends on if nearby routes pick up the slack accordingly. Ever since the 2010 cuts while yes service/frequency deductions may discourage ridership, the base/off peak service got more crowded since pre pandemic service prioritized rush hours. Roosevelt, Jeffery and any other routes with heavy artics do lose a few buses anyway from what way back machine and irm shows when checking schedules before switching to or from artics. 

[artthouwill]

4 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Limits-Clark/Diversey: rts: 8,9,22, 36, 37, 145, 151,157 and some others I probably missed.

Archer- Pershing/Archer rts: 35, 39, 43, 50, 51, 94, 63W, 165, 55A/N 120/122 (AM) 129(?), U of C routes

Back then Archer had the 31 and the 47.   55A. 55N. 63W,  and 165 didn't exist, but the 61 Archer/Franklin Express, 62 Archer Express, 99 Stevenson Expressway, 99M Midway Park N Ride Express, 162 Pulaski/Stevenson Express, and the 164 Narragansett Express DID exist as @Busjack noted.  Archer also operated the 54B South Cicero. What is now the 63W and 165 were part of the 63 before the opening of the Orange Line   The 62H replaced the 99, the 55N replaced the 164, the 55A replaced rush hour service on the 47 ( Austin/ 65th trips, and the 53AL South Pulaski Limited replaced the 162.

Speaking of garages, North Avenue garage also existed  but eventually was replaced in 1995 by Chicago Avenue.   Beverly garage existed in 1985 but was replaced by 103rd Garage in 1988.   The garage at 52nd/Cottage Grove closed around 1981 or 1982 with no replacement.   Finally, Lawndale garage had been closed but reopened while Kedzie garage was rebuilt in the 1970s.  Lawndale reopened again when North Avenue closed  but closed upon the opening of the Chicago Ave garage.  Oh, I almost forgot 69th garage was in existence during that time but was replaced by 74th around 1995 or so.

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

Back then Archer had the 31 and the 47.   55A. 55N. 63W,  and 165 didn't exist, but the 61 Archer/Franklin Express, 62 Archer Express, 99 Stevenson Expressway, 99M Midway Park N Ride Express, 162 Pulaski/Stevenson Express, and the 164 Narragansett Express DID exist as @Busjack noted.  Archer also operated the 54B South Cicero. What is now the 63W and 165 were part of the 63 before the opening of the Orange Line   The 62H replaced the 99, the 55N replaced the 164, the 55A replaced rush hour service on the 47 ( Austin/ 65th trips, and the 53AL South Pulaski Limited replaced the 162.

Speaking of garages, North Avenue garage also existed  but eventually was replaced in 1995 by Chicago Avenue.   Beverly garage existed in 1985 but was replaced by 103rd Garage in 1988.   The garage at 52nd/Cottage Grove closed around 1981 or 1982 with no replacement.   Finally, Lawndale garage had been closed but reopened while Kedzie garage was rebuilt in the 1970s.  Lawndale reopened again when North Avenue closed  but closed upon the opening of the Chicago Ave garage.  Oh, I almost forgot 69th garage was in existence during that time but was replaced by 74th around 1995 or so.

Yeah honestly when I typed out archer I was searching through the spring 2008 pick thread so that set up was more in my mind lol. Plus I was barely 5 in 97 when the expresses bit the dust 🤣. What else did limits have? I know Beverly was a mix of stuff that went to 103rd, 77th and maybe 52A that went to archer?  103rd picked up 6, 14, 27, 28 and 30 from 77th as well when it opened. Was 52nd a small enough garage to where 77th was just able to pick up 1,2,6,14 without having to move much out to replace it?

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, Sam92 said:

They'd probably have to try and get their hands on the fisk site to make that happen.

While the transition plan calls for a new garage, it won't be there, as it's a data center (as others have posted).

[Busjack]

39 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

Yeah honestly when I typed out archer I was searching through the spring 2008 pick thread so that set up was more in my mind lol. Plus I was barely 5 in 97 when the expresses bit the dust 🤣. What else did limits have? I know Beverly was a mix of stuff that went to 103rd, 77th and maybe 52A that went to archer?  103rd picked up 6, 14, 27, 28 and 30 from 77th as well when it opened. Was 52nd a small enough garage to where 77th was just able to pick up 1,2,6,14 without having to move much out to replace it?

Your Limits is probably over-inclusive, as 22 and 36 were mostly NP, but Limits may have had some short trips. Limits basically had Wilson-Ravenswood work and northside work transferred to K. NP had a few 153 trips and a few 136 trips, but most were Limits.. (I remember complaining to a Limits supervisor that a Sheridan-LaSalle bus with a Broadway-Devon or Broadway-Rosemont sign turned south at Grandville-Broadway making me walk several blocks to transfer to 155).

52nd was a former CMC garage and had a capacity of maybe 100. It had 1 Drexel-Hyde Park, 2 Hyde Park, 2A Hyde Park Express, 5 Jeffrey, 5A Jeffery Express, 5B Yates-Colfax (Chicago Vocational Academy trips), 38 Indiana, and 43. Its closure apparently coincided with Jeffery getting artics, and most of its work went to 77th.

The apparently strange thing about 52nd, Limits, and Beverly was that routes that passed or terminated there (Cottage Grove, Clark, Broadway, Wentworth) did not use them (except as noted above).

[Sam92]

12 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Your Limits is probably over-inclusive, as 22 and 36 were mostly NP, but Limits may have had some short trips. Limits basically had Wilson-Ravenswood work and northside work transferred to K. NP had a few 153 trips and a few 136 trips, but most were Limits.. (I remember complaining to a Limits supervisor that a Sheridan-LaSalle bus with a Broadway-Devon or Broadway-Rosemont sign turned south at Grandville-Broadway making me walk several blocks to transfer to 155).

52nd was a former CMC garage and had a capacity of maybe 100. It had 1 Drexel-Hyde Park, 2 Hyde Park, 2A Hyde Park Express, 5 Jeffrey, 5A Jeffery Express, 5B Yates-Colfax (Chicago Vocational Academy trips), 38 Indiana, and 43. Its closure apparently coincided with Jeffery getting artics, and most of its work went to 77th.

The apparently strange thing about 52nd, Limits, and Beverly was that routes that passed or terminated there (Cottage Grove, Clark, Broadway, Wentworth) did not use them (except as noted above).

Youre right on 22 out of Limits. IRM site says 36 (Waveland trips according to other posts in various threads referring to Limits.) 52nd only handled Boulevard routes right? I heard Limits and Beverly were pretty small as well so thats probably why they didn't take on 24 (who had a lot more service before 97 I see), all of 36 and 22. (Plus Devon/Clark and Howard being a bit closer to NP?)

[Busjack]

17 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

52nd only handled Boulevard routes right?

38 and 43 were not boulevard routes, at least if one considers 38 descended from the streetcar route; in that SB 38 was on Michigan, it might have been considered such, except the main CMC route on Michigan was 6 Garfield. The rest of 52nd routes were boulevard routes.

Interestingly, Garfield and Marquette ended up out of 69th.

Similar to 52nd was Keeler, which at the end just ran 76 and 152.

[artthouwill]

56 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

Yeah honestly when I typed out archer I was searching through the spring 2008 pick thread so that set up was more in my mind lol. Plus I was barely 5 in 97 when the expresses bit the dust 🤣. What else did limits have? I know Beverly was a mix of stuff that went to 103rd, 77th and maybe 52A that went to archer?  103rd picked up 6, 14, 27, 28 and 30 from 77th as well when it opened. Was 52nd a small enough garage to where 77th was just able to pick up 1,2,6,14 without having to move much out to replace it?

Actually 77th did give up the 8 and 42 as well as 71 to 69th when it took on 52nd's routes.  Most of their buses 11xx and 36xx along with the few 7000 artics went to 77th.  Most of 52nd's 9000 series buses went to 69th to help 69th cover the routes it received from 77th with the rest of the 9000s going to Limits.  My guess is that Limits added trips on the 8 and 9 because of capacity restraints at 69th.   The only 52nd route that didn't go to 77th was the 43 which went to Archer.

Due to the small size of 52nd, I think it was doomed to close anyway,  but I've wondered if 52nd had operated the 51, 55, and the 4 or 47th instead of the 6 and 14 if it could have stayed longer.   Those 2 routes were a better fit at 77th  and perhaps the 4 would have been a better fit at 52nd.   This way 52nd also wouldn't have needed any artics.   But again,  it's small size may have doomed it.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

Due to the small size of 52nd, I think it was doomed to close anyway,  but I've wondered if 52nd had operated the 51, 55, and the 4 or 47th instead of the 6 and 14 if it could have stayed longer.   Those 2 routes were a better fit at 77th  and perhaps the 4 would have been a better fit at 52nd.   This way 52nd also wouldn't have needed any artics.   But again,  it's small size may have doomed it.

4 by itself would have overwhelmed it (a bus about every 1.5 minutes).  3 (South Park, now King Dr.) went from 52 to 77 in 1953 according to Chicago Transit and Railfan.

[Sam92]

On 1/23/2025 at 7:08 PM, Busjack said:

4 by itself would have overwhelmed it (a bus about every 1.5 minutes).  3 (South Park, now King Dr.) went from 52 to 77 in 1953 according to Chicago Transit and Railfan.

Dang that sounds like about 60 buses right there 😳

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

Dang that sounds like about 60 buses right there 😳

Yes, frequency was much better. Around the early 70s, 55 Garfield was something like 3 to 10 minutes. 1985 was 4.3 to 10 (about the same), now it is about 7 to 13, and about 1/2 of the buses from 7:30 am to 9:00 am are pull outs or pull ins to or from Ashland. Only improvement from the 70s were addition of Owl and that the Owl terminal is St. Louis while the late evening terminal was Morgan (old 55 55th terminal before the Dan Ryan L),

In 1985, 4 Cottage Grove was every 3.2 minutes during rush hour; now the combination of 4 and X4 is something like every 6 minutes (12 minutes on X4; 9 to 12 minutes on 4 north of the branches); might be worse as some arrive at 79th about the same time.

Going into the 90s, public timetables were only necessary on fringe routes, such as 56A or 97.

[jajuan]

On 1/23/2025 at 5:19 PM, Shannon tahoeppv said:

Lined up with all the rusted out ones & crashed ones i haven't been in the back of the boneyard in a while seen all the novas gone & all flyers man they even scrapped 6127 that was back here 

This kind of explains why K was short 40 foot buses and started running so many artics for a while on runs that typically would almost always be a 40 foot run. It got a bit better for them when they got some 8700s to go with those 8350s they already had. But there are still some times when we might see them rolling artics out in some odd places.

[Shannon tahoeppv]

On 1/27/2025 at 3:42 PM, jajuan said:

This kind of explains why K was short 40 foot buses and started running so many artics for a while on runs that typically would almost always be a 40 foot run. It got a bit better for them when they got some 8700s to go with those 8350s they already had. But there are still some times when we might see them rolling artics out in some odd places.

Yea i seen that once seen a artic on the 7 like tf 

[artthouwill]

11 hours ago, Shannon tahoeppv said:

Yea i seen that once seen a artic on the 7 like tf 

I guess a bus is a bus.  I remember my first ride on the 500 series Optimus was on the 36 Broadway,  a route that had no business with those buses.  Needless to say it was crazy crammed .

I also have seen an article on the 7 and had the same reaction.   But I will take a bus that's too big or too small ( provided I can get on it) rather than no bus at all.

[Sam92]

14 hours ago, Shannon tahoeppv said:

Yea i seen that once seen a artic on the 7 like tf 

 

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I guess a bus is a bus.  I remember my first ride on the 500 series Optimus was on the 36 Broadway,  a route that had no business with those buses.  Needless to say it was crazy crammed .

I also have seen an article on the 7 and had the same reaction.   But I will take a bus that's too big or too small ( provided I can get on it) rather than no bus at all.

 

On 1/27/2025 at 3:42 PM, jajuan said:

This kind of explains why K was short 40 foot buses and started running so many artics for a while on runs that typically would almost always be a 40 foot run. It got a bit better for them when they got some 8700s to go with those 8350s they already had. But there are still some times when we might see them rolling artics out in some odd places.

103rd used to be guilty of that when they'd have a lot of artics too lol. Showing up on 95E, 111, 95W just like K with 52, 126 etc