CTA adds #157 & #52/94 Bus Pilots.

[NewFlyerMCI]

5 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Think of it this way. Every bus HAS to go to or pass 79th regardless of weather it's going to Racine or not therefore everything NORTH of 79th is the main full time service therefore Perry is correctly labelled. It's only part time in the sense that there's no better place to turn around a bus but we're talking a 2 block deviation here.

What is throwing him off is that Perry is used midday only yes but that only makes it a part time turnaround in the literal sense

To me, that 2-block distinction is important, especially since CTA touts it as a Red Line connection (which is just barely qualifies imo, but that's another discussion). If buses just ended at 79th/Vincennes, or 78th, or 77th, I'd have less of a problem. 

Nothing is throwing me off, and the literal sense is what matters most for the people actually taking the bus; No one "figurately" knows that the 24 doesn't go to the "Red Line" at all times while it's in service w/o looking at the schedule, and which presents a different story from what's shown on the map.

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

I'll throw a bone though. Mark whatever isn't on Vincennes north of 79th with a dashed line and put (rush hours) on Racine and (midday only) on Perry. 

I can get behind this.

34 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I think if you look at a route like 79,  most people would say the route to Ford City is the full route, although 24 hr service is available between the Lake!front and Western.  When I was young,  more trips ended at Western than Cicero ( Scottsdale shopping center where the 54B also terminated).  Then around 1978 service was extended to Ford City.   Slowly but surely the ridership to Ford City increased to the point where at least half of the buses west to Ford City.   Back then Ford City was the extension but with expanded hours beyond the mall hours now us considered the full route with Western as a short turn.  86 is similar. 

I have actually always wanted a service note that denotes that not all 79 trips go to Ford City (and not just for the 79, but for other routes that frequently don't travel the full length of the route, such as many of the north side E-W routes, and others). Usually this is achieved with some sort of change in line thickness, but CTA doesn't employ this design for it's map, and as you point out, there's enough service to Ford City that CTA's part-time designation would actually be the opposite of helpful, despite it probably being more accurate. I've just been unsure how it would be implemented on the map, and as such, haven't made a mention of it before.

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

To me, that 2-block distinction is important, especially since CTA touts it as a Red Line connection (which is just barely qualifies imo, but that's another discussion). If buses just ended at 79th/Vincennes, or 78th, or 77th, I'd have less of a problem. 

Nothing is throwing me off, and the literal sense is what matters most for the people actually taking the bus; No one "figurately" knows that the 24 doesn't go to the "Red Line" at all times while it's in service w/o looking aut the schedule, and which presents a different story from what's shown on the map.

 

Here's the thing. If 24 was actually intended to be used as a red line connection then maybe but  honestly no one over there is using the 24 for that; that 2 block stint is because other wise you'd have 1.5 miles of deadheading to get back in position NB. That's why Cta considers it full time because again it's more to provide a place for the full time service pattern of 79th/Vincennes to Wacker. Anyone along Vincennes will take an E/W bus before taking 24 to the red line. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't been either cut to rush hour only or outright eliminated. It's damn near an express bus as little ridership it gets. But back to my point... 79th/Perry is a red line connection for 8A but a simple Layover for 24s to avoid having to Loop via 79th, Lafayette, 83rd and Vincennes back to 79th and Vincennes which is the intended terminal full time. 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

To me, that 2-block distinction is important, especially since CTA touts it as a Red Line connection (which is just barely qualifies imo, but that's another discussion). If buses just ended at 79th/Vincennes, or 78th, or 77th, I'd have less of a problem. 

Nothing is throwing me off, and the literal sense is what matters most for the people actually taking the bus; No one "figurately" knows that the 24 doesn't go to the "Red Line" at all times while it's in service w/o looking at the schedule, and which presents a different story from what's shown on the map.

I can get behind this.

I have actually always wanted a service note that denotes that not all 79 trips go to Ford City (and not just for the 79, but for other routes that frequently don't travel the full length of the route, such as many of the north side E-W routes, and others). Usually this is achieved with some sort of change in line thickness, but CTA doesn't employ this design for it's map, and as you point out, there's enough service to Ford City that CTA's part-time designation would actually be the opposite of helpful, despite it probably being more accurate. I've just been unsure how it would be implemented on the map, and as such, haven't made a mention of it before.

The system maps would denote frequencies like every 3 minutes between Western and the Lakefront and every 6 minutes between Ford City and the Lakefront.   Bus stops generally don't denote frequencies although some do.

One final thought on the 24 and the 79th and Perry terminal.  It was always designated as a Red Line terminal based on the 8A terminal.   I suppose CTA chose that terminal for easy access and driver relief.  No one is going to ride to the Red Line on the 24.  I wonder why 79th and Halsted terminal wasn't chosen unless there's a million 8s there.

[Sam92]

2 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

The system maps would denote frequencies like every 3 minutes between Western and the Lakefront and every 6 minutes between Ford City and the Lakefront.   Bus stops generally don't denote frequencies although some do.

One final thought on the 24 and the 79th and Perry terminal.  It was always designated as a Red Line terminal based on the 8A terminal.   I suppose CTA chose that terminal for easy access and driver relief.  No one is going to ride to the Red Line on the 24.  I wonder why 79th and Halsted terminal wasn't chosen unless there's a million 8s there.

Yeah 8 always has a healthy amount of buses at 79th; Broadway too. Also that is pretty far to turnaround a Vincennes bus compared to Perry 

 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

Yeah 8 always has a healthy amount of buses at 79th; Broadway too. Also that is pretty far to turnaround a Vincennes bus compared to Perry 

 

An extra 2 pr 3 blocks?  The 94 got a 1 2/2 miles extension to 74th garage.

[NewFlyerMCI]

2 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Here's the thing. If 24 was actually intended to be used as a red line connection then maybe but  honestly no one over there is using the 24 for that;

Hence "Red Line" being in quotes, as sarcasm. 79th/Perry is barely a Red Line connection for the 8A, I know no one's taking the 24 to the Red Line. My point is that, especially since CTA markets it as such, it's not a full time connection as it's shown on the map, regardless of whether or not it's 79th/Perry or "79th Red Line"

2 hours ago, Sam92 said:

I'm honestly surprised it hasn't been either cut to rush hour only or outright eliminated.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, Sam92 said:

But back to my point... 79th/Perry is a red line connection for 8A but a simple Layover for 24s to avoid having to Loop via 79th, Lafayette, 83rd and Vincennes back to 79th and Vincennes which is the intended terminal full time. 

But isn't the full time terminal. Every bus going to 87th/Racine isn't going to 79th/Perry. I'm actually surprised the 24 just doesn't pull into 77th directly.

So, like I said earlier, while I understand what you've said, we will not agree on this and nothing you've said or will say will (un)convince me that CTA should more accurately reflect the 24's service pattern on the map. 

[Sam92]

20 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Hence "Red Line" being in quotes, as sarcasm. 79th/Perry is barely a Red Line connection for the 8A, I know no one's taking the 24 to the Red Line. My point is that, especially since CTA markets it as such, it's not a full time connection as it's shown on the map, regardless of whether or not it's 79th/Perry or "79th Red Line"

Agreed.

But isn't the full time terminal. Every bus going to 87th/Racine isn't going to 79th/Perry. I'm actually surprised the 24 just doesn't pull into 77th directly.

So, like I said earlier, while I understand what you've said, we will not agree on this and nothing you've said or will say will (un)convince me that CTA should more accurately reflect the 24's service pattern on the map. 

It's a gray area at this point. Both sides are right lol. Besides If it was up to me the 24 would be gone, 112 extended via 95th, State, 83rd to Walmart. 

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

An extra 2 pr 3 blocks?  The 94 got a 1 2/2 miles extension to 74th garage.

You're right but again if the market is Vincennes, why send it to Halsted which is 4 blocks when perry is closer and also get jammed as easily compared to coming from Halsted? 

[NewFlyerMCI]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

The system maps would denote frequencies like every 3 minutes between Western and the Lakefront and every 6 minutes between Ford City and the Lakefront.   Bus stops generally don't denote frequencies although some do.

This would be fine, and should be brought back. The information is in the schedule, but CTA has always such as poor job of distributing bus schedules (especially compared to system maps) that it might as well be on the main map. Especially for the maps at bus shelters, where you can't view the back to see information about each route

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

One final thought on the 24 and the 79th and Perry terminal.  It was always designated as a Red Line terminal based on the 8A terminal.   I suppose CTA chose that terminal for easy access and driver relief.  No one is going to ride to the Red Line on the 24.  I wonder why 79th and Halsted terminal wasn't chosen unless there's a million 8s there.

Ideally, both the 8 & 8A would've ended at 95th/Dan and this wouldn't be an issue but that's a separate discussion. Even if there weren't a bunch of buses waiting like @Sam92's says, the 8A ending at 79th/Halsted is sorta of a disservice. It'd be a marginally better 349. Sure, people could transfer to the 8 or 79, but since the Red Line is only an extra 3-5 mins away might as well. Now, ideally (again lol), the 8A would actually serve 79th station directly, but (again lol) that's a separate discussion.

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

An extra 2 pr 3 blocks?  The 94 got a 1 2/2 miles extension to 74th garage.

Wow, it really is that long (1.88 miles to be exact). Doesn't feel like that at all, even with all the left turns going NB. 

To your point, I agree. 79th/Halsted for the 24 is no better or worse than 79th/Perry

9 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

You're right but again if the market is Vincennes, why send it to Halsted which is 4 blocks when perry is closer and also get jammed as easily compared to coming from Halsted?

Transfers to 8A (which exists now) and access to Halsted commercial corridor, but again, the distance is so negligible, it wouldn't matter either way. Like I said earlier, I'm surprised it just doesn't make a left turn at Vincennes/78th

[jajuan]

On 2/10/2022 at 5:11 PM, artthouwill said:

Here are some ways to reduce turns on the 94.

1.  Reassign the 94 to either C or K, which would allow you to

2.  Restore the 71st/Sacramento  turnaround. 

3.  Reroute the 94 to NOT serve Western Orange Line.  I admit this one might not be popular with some riders. But for others iand CTA drivers, it might improve reliability.   Then again,  some CTA drivers may appreciate the midwinter bathroom break, though California Pink Line could handle that. 

By my count, these actions eliminate 8 or 9 turns from the 94.

On your point about restoring the 71st/Sacramento loop, remember CTA didn't make that change simply to connect to the garage,though it is a plus for them, but more because the Park District put up a stink about the buses tearing up the roadway when going to sit for their layovers.