Pace Electric Buses

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/chicago/news/pace-set-to-begin-rolling-out-electric-buses-this-fall/

Saw this story on CBS about the electric buses. In the video they state the gillig electric bus will be out on the streets in November and the Proterra buses starting in March 2023. They asked the Pace rep how long a full run can be in miles and she said 300. The bus had 100 and something. What will it have in the winter??? They will either need line chargers or they are gonna have to switch the bus out after a few trips. All indications are charging equipment will just be at the garage.

Wow she said the bus had 126 miles on it and that is 76 percent charged. Wow that doesn't sound like too much. The proterras are supposed to be 300. You have to account for a loss of miles in the winter as the batteries will discharge faster. I don't know about the gillig. Maybe for a small run only. 

She's said several times that part of the test with the Giilig is to see how long of a schedule block it can stay charged and how performance is affected by winter in various divisions and if the bus is driven moderately. The consultants said that additional buses may be necessary if some blocks need to be divided.

Strangely, the consultant's report said that the blocks from River were longer than those from Plainfield. Maybe the River buses go out to Rosemont and stay out, while the I-55 buses go downtown and back.

For some of the longer round trips, 364 is 52 miles and 208 is 40 miles, and one would assume they would put chargers at the Harvey TC and NWTC. Biggest question is 565 or 572/574/272, which is about 80 miles.

[BusHunter]

You know to be accurate, if 126 miles is 76 percent, the bus must only be getting 166 miles roughly on a full charge. That sounds low. Does the gillig bus have an overhead charger? 

For Pace an electric bus is more difficult because they cover a big area. I got to see this on #272. That route is massive plus I think it turns into a #574 and then maybe a #565 to get it to Waukegan. This bus might be more suitable for a shuttle bug that don't go far. I wonder does idling burn power. Maybe the computer needs to tell the bus to hibernate or go to sleep in the terminal.

[artthouwill]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

You know to be accurate, if 126 miles is 76 percent, the bus must only be getting 166 miles roughly on a full charge. That sounds low. Does the gillig bus have an overhead charger? 

For Pace an electric bus is more difficult because they cover a big area. I got to see this on #272. That route is massive plus I think it turns into a #574 and then maybe a #565 to get it to Waukegan. This bus might be more suitable for a shuttle bug that don't go far. I wonder does idling burn power. Maybe the computer needs to tell the bus to hibernate or go to sleep in the terminal.

I think Pace would have to consider building a charging center at CLC in addition to its Pulse point at Washington and Sheridan 

  Since multiple routes serve CLC, it makes sense to have charging stations there, and that solves the 272/574/565 dilemma  

[Busjack]

6 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I wonder does idling burn power.

Nope, except to run the heat. There isn't any engine to idle, as opposed to the ineffective Highland Park hybrid buses. The L doesn't pull power when it is stopped. In fact, the regenerative braking results in a gain.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I think Pace would have to consider building a charging center at CLC in addition to its Pulse point at Washington and Sheridan 

 ....

On the theory that garage charging is preferable, the garage at 14th and Jackson isn't that far from downtown.

[MetroShadow]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:42 PM, artthouwill said:

I think Pace would have to consider building a charging center at CLC in addition to its Pulse point at Washington and Sheridan 

  Since multiple routes serve CLC, it makes sense to have charging stations there, and that solves the 272/574/565 dilemma  

Does Pace have the money to provide CLC for space for said charging? While it's ideal, it is entirely up to the College to offer it (and that might be a hefty ask of space). 

[Busjack]

Sun-Times says that Rep. Casten procured $1.5 million for 5 battery electric paratransit buses for Pace.

[Busjack]

The 2022 Annual Report confirms that the Gillig bus is 20700.

[artthouwill]

43 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The 2022 Annual Report confirms that the Gillig bus is 20700.

I'm still trying to figure out the new numbering system.  We know that the first two numbers are the model year.   It's the last three digits that's giving me the flux

000s I'm guessing are paratransits

300s are 30ft diesels.   So far they are all Eldorado

400s - 40 ft diesels.   So far they are only New Flyers.  We will have to see if Pace ever places another diesel bus order and if someone other than New Flyer wins.

500s are CNGs.  So far these are also all Eldorado.  We will see if Pace ever places another CNG order and another manufacturer wins that bid.

700s look like these could either be Gillig or electrics.  The electric buses from Eldorado could determine what this really is.  If 23700s, then we know this is an electric series number.

600s, 800s, and 900s are unknown to me, though one of these could be assigned to any future diesel  motorcoach orders.  If/When they go to electric motorcoach will they get one of these or will they get a 700 designation?

[Busjack]

7 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

The electric buses from Eldorado

They are coming from Proterra.

8 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

If/When they go to electric motorcoach will they get one of these or will they get a 700 designation?

Plainfield is scheduled to be the last garage to convert to electric. What might complicate matters is that MCI told Pace that it is quitting making D4000s, and the only commuter buses on its website are D45 CRTs and D45 CRT LEs,

[artthouwill]

16 minutes ago, Busjack said:

They are coming from Proterra.

Plainfield is scheduled to be the last garage to convert to electric. What might complicate matters is that MCI told Pace that it is quitting making D4000s, and the only commuter buses on its website are D45 CRTs and D45 CRT LEs,

Even Prevost commuter is a 45ft coach so either Pace will have to adjust or revert to Suburbans. At least Eldorado, Nova, New Flyer, and Gilligcan make those in electrics..

I have been saying for years that Pace needed to start buying the 45ft motorciaches.  One could've argued that space constraints in Joliet may have made it difficult,  but that's now not an issue for Plainfield.  Since it will be awhile before Plainfield gets converted,  Pace can certainly place an order for 45ft diesel coaches.  It will also increase capacity by 8 passengers per coach.depending on the model chosen. 

[busfan2847]

13 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I'm still trying to figure out the new numbering system.  We know that the first two numbers are the model year.   It's the last three digits that's giving me the flux

000s I'm guessing are paratransits

300s are 30ft diesels.   So far they are all Eldorado

400s - 40 ft diesels.   So far they are only New Flyers.  We will have to see if Pace ever places another diesel bus order and if someone other than New Flyer wins.

500s are CNGs.  So far these are also all Eldorado.  We will see if Pace ever places another CNG order and another manufacturer wins that bid.

700s look like these could either be Gillig or electrics.  The electric buses from Eldorado could determine what this really is.  If 23700s, then we know this is an electric series number.

600s, 800s, and 900s are unknown to me, though one of these could be assigned to any future diesel  motorcoach orders.  If/When they go to electric motorcoach will they get one of these or will they get a 700 designation?

since 2013

000 and 100 are 25' Paratransit 14001-14150, 16001-60, 17001-120, 18001-29; 22001-86 (at least)

200 are 22' Paratransit 14200-97

400 was being used for Community Vehicles 14400-19; 16401-34; 18400-2; 19400-20

 

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, busfan2847 said:

since 2013

000 and 100 are 25' Paratransit 14001-14150, 16001-60, 17001-120, 18001-29; 22001-86 (at least)

200 are 22' Paratransit 14200-97

400 was being used for Community Vehicles 14400-19; 16401-34; 18400-2; 19400-20

 

Interesting that the 400s were Community vehicles and Pace chose to assign the New Flyers that series as opposed to,  say 600s.

[Busjack]

In a Press Release announcing that Rep. Brad Schneider was at an event in Waukegan, Pace announced Project Zero. Most of it was known, but there's something else.

[Tcmetro]

Short video with some footage of the electric Gillig driving around Waukegan:

https://youtu.be/FJQ5krKhQCA

[Busjack]

FWIW (probably not much) , the Winter 2022-2023 Chicago ADA News says that the electric bus will be on 95th.

[Busjack]

News announced at today's board meeting (starting around here) includes earmarks for electric paratransit buses for McHenry, and an electric OTR for Plainfield, if Congress passes the appropriations.

The Board also approved a resolution approving car chargers at 9 facilities, mostly P&Rs, saying that it was o.k. to park in the charging space all day, but figuring out how to charge for the electricity.

 

[Busjack]

On 4/16/2023 at 4:39 PM, Busjack said:

FWIW (probably not much) , the Winter 2022-2023 Chicago ADA News says that the electric bus will be on 95th.

More reinforcement of that:

[OneofthewillsNW]

at this point, fuel cell is such a better choice for how we operate. 300 miles on a 40 ft frame, 12 min refueling, so only 20% longer then our current servicing timeframe from our normal buses. less negatively impacted by bad weather. 

[Busjack]

4 hours ago, OneofthewillsNW said:

at this point, fuel cell is such a better choice for how we operate. 300 miles on a 40 ft frame, 12 min refueling, so only 20% longer then our current servicing timeframe from our normal buses. less negatively impacted by bad weather. 

CTA's trial (admittedly 25 years ago) indicates otherwise. Too much trouble obtaining and storing liquid hydrogen. Look it up in this forum.

[OneofthewillsNW]

21 hours ago, Busjack said:

CTA's trial (admittedly 25 years ago) indicates otherwise. Too much trouble obtaining and storing liquid hydrogen. Look it up in this forum.

again, that was 25 years ago and tech has gotten so much better.

[Busjack]

9 minutes ago, OneofthewillsNW said:

again, that was 25 years ago and tech has gotten so much better.

Since you are apparently the expert on this, please provide a detailed explanation, comparable to the transition plans the FTA requires of all transit authorities, of how the hydrogen is to be produced, transported, and stored, how the fueled up buses are to be stored, modification of garages, training of fire personnel, and convincing cities like Waukegan, Prospect Heights, and Evanston that they want a potential bomb in their midst.

Without details on these things, "tech has gotten so much better" is meaningless.

[OneofthewillsNW]

9 hours ago, Busjack said:

Since you are apparently the expert on this, please provide a detailed explanation, comparable to the transition plans the FTA requires of all transit authorities, of how the hydrogen is to be produced, transported, and stored, how the fueled up buses are to be stored, modification of garages, training of fire personnel, and convincing cities like Waukegan, Prospect Heights, and Evanston that they want a potential bomb in their midst.

Without details on these things, "tech has gotten so much better" is meaningless.

JCB has made a very safe refueler that can remote refuel pressurized tanks in 10 to 12 min. secondly, if you want to talk about bombs, electric battery buses are far more difficult to suppress if it catch's on fire, as fuel cell buses have only 20% of the thermal mass,  plus automatic pressure release tanks are very reliable.  also producing hygergin is easy. it can even be produced at the garage as it only needs a water line and enough power. aka about the same kind of input as charging station that they already are consittering for battery charging.  honestly the only reason politicians are pushing battery buses is because they see the battery cars and think its a good idea, even though they cost about 5 times as much in the same lifespan as fuel cell buses. 

if you have to go local electric, then do trolly buses, otherwise for range fuel cells, or if you have to cheep out, CNG.  thats the best way to go for alternative fuels.  the realty is this, Ebikes are getting banned in new york do to the very high fire risk, of the cta's 30 bat buses, 1 already burned out.  the special equipment firefighters need to deal with battery cars is already very expensive.  all the same concerns you have for fuel cells are worse for battery powered cars and buses. 

[Busjack]

The H2 buses are out there, but this article indicates they are not a slam dunk. But also plenty of reports of CNGs and NF BEBs going up.

[Busjack]

7 hours ago, BusOps said:

https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/billstatus.asp?DocNum=1342&GAID=17&GA=103&DocTypeID=HB&LegID=143493&SessionID=112

Interesting amendments added to IL HB1342. Bill was passed in both houses. 
“Provides that, after July 1, 2026 (rather than January 1, 2026), a Service Board may not enter into a new contract to purchase a bus that is not a zero-emission bus for the purpose of the Service Board's transit bus fleet.”

 

37 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Honestly I wish they could have set the date further back.

I believe the intent is to give transit agencies time to be able to get infrastructures in place or in the process by the time the date rolls around.   Agreement have to be made with utilities, and facilities have to be constructed or fitted to accommodate the necessary equipment.   I think transit agencies including CTA AND PACE lobbied for more time to be in compliance.

That said, I think CTA needs to order at least one more round of diesel buses before that date.  It could be 40 ft or 60 ft or both, but CTA needs to ensure it can run service  while they prepare for the future.

While CTA has some Proterras and they are expecting 6 electric Novas this year, now is a good time to get a handful of electric artics to test as well.

1. This was misclassified. It had something to do with electric buses, NOT Random CTA.
2. If anything, it was to give Pace more time to put CNG buses in Wheeling Garage.
3. Since CTA and Pace were going to do this anyway, it was just legislative posturing.
4. Maybe to @artthouwill's point, it probably is meaningless, because the summary states:

   Quote

   Provides that, after July 1, 2026 (rather than January 1, 2026), a Service Board may not enter into a new contract to purchase a bus that is not a zero-emission bus for the purpose of the Service Board's transit bus fleet. Provides that a Service Board shall not be deemed to be in violation of the provisions when failure to comply is due to: (1) the unavailability of zero-emission buses from a manufacturer or funding to purchase zero-emission buses; (2) the lack of necessary charging, fueling, or storage facilities or funding to procure charging, fueling, or storage facilities; or (3) the inability of a third party to enter into a contractual or commercial relationship with a Service Board that is necessary to carry out the purposes of the provisions.