South | Southwest | Heritage Divisions - Changes & Restructuring

[Busjack]

 

CircleSeven said:

You are absolutely right about that. The changes with most of those routes are very tedious to even be explained. I actually went to the public hearings in Blue Island on Thursday Night and let me tell you nearly all but like one or maybe 2 routes won't even be touched. Nearly all of the routes would be restructured including our beloved #355. Like I stated, I'm not going to even get to the nitty-gritty to all of the routes that are going to be restructured since they are in this phase but they will have all the proposed changes on the website hopefully by Friday Night or next week. But when you'll see them, you will either be shocked or surprised. They will host another set of Hearings In May as they would see if all the routes would be suitable to restructured based on public input and hopefully by the Fall, all the changes would go in effect.

May as well move the thread here.

Having gone through the North Shore restructuring, I'm not surprised by anything, except that the consultant's report hasn't been posted yet, and, as Circle Seven says, I'll be waiting for it.

Based on the picture that was on the Pace home page a couple of days ago, it appears that at least one proposal got a lot of comment (participants are told to put sticky notes on the map to indicate their reaction). And despite what the one woman said at the Northbrook forum, Pace hasn't predetermined the final reconfiguration, and does listen to participants' comments, although routes with low IBS counts or high dead time will be on the block. The Press Release on the forums also said that changes depended on the availability of funding and vehicles.

One also shouldn't be surprised that some reconfiguration would be necessary, as many of the South routes are virtually unchanged from South Suburban Safeway days. I have previously commented on whether 353 makes sense, the way it currently runs. (Pace recently posted a Notice that school trips were being added from Riverdale to 95th; that can't be to serve suburban students.) Other routes got cut back apparently as a result of the 1981 funding crisis.

The two corridors where I would be surprised if they were extensively reworked would be Halsted and 159th, because Pace previously had studies for them. However, those changes may not have worked (as indicated by pace2322's post that his 352 run is overloaded, although the question again is whether it should be handling local traffic north of 127th).

[CircleSeven]

May as well move the thread here.

Having gone through the North Shore restructuring, I'm not surprised by anything, except that the consultant's report hasn't been posted yet, and, as Circle Seven says, I'll be waiting for it.

Based on the picture that was on the Pace home page a couple of days ago, it appears that at least one proposal got a lot of comment (participants are told to put sticky notes on the map to indicate their reaction). And despite what the one woman said at the Northbrook forum, Pace hasn't predetermined the final reconfiguration, and does listen to participants' comments, although routes with low IBS counts or high dead time will be on the block. The Press Release on the forums also said that changes depended on the availability of funding and vehicles.

One also shouldn't be surprised that some reconfiguration would be necessary, as many of the South routes are virtually unchanged from South Suburban Safeway days. I have previously commented on whether 353 makes sense, the way it currently runs. (Pace recently posted a Notice that school trips were being added from Riverdale to 95th; that can't be to serve suburban students.) Other routes got cut back apparently as a result of the 1981 funding crisis.

The two corridors where I would be surprised if they were extensively reworked would be Halsted and 159th, because Pace previously had studies for them. However, those changes may not have worked (as indicated by pace2322's post that his 352 run is overloaded, although the question again is whether it should be handling local traffic north of 127th).

As I stated last night, Pace has posted the proposed changes. Alot of these changes would benefit some and other areas, services would be gone. For the most part, most of the Pace routes that feeders 95th Red Line would run limited stops within the city limits. Hopefully that would eliminate the problem of duplicating service by Pace picking up all the city folks. Although I would suggest that CTA would eliminate the 49A because that bus is really no use because its only two or three buses during both rush hours. In other areas, some streets would be extended to as others would be shortened and one of the routes there will be one street that will no longer have any service in that corridor. So if you have that time as I do to read what these proposed changes, you will be shocked and surprised.

[Busjack]

Thanks for the link. I looked over the site, and the only thing that seems overwhelming is the number of routes. However, Pace is doing three divisions at once instead of the usual one.

A few observations:

• Pace isn't cutting back in Chicago as much as I would have thought. The 355 via Sibley runs are being retained (remember I said that 355 could become a feeder to the South Shore or 87-Red Line), and 352, 353, and the Ford City buses are being made limited stop, but not no stop. Not really answered is if they are retaining the 353 Riverdale trips.
  
• It looks as though Pace is looking for straighter routes, such as the proposed 386--straight down Harlem. Similarly, Hegwisch is only served by 358 Torrence. I wonder if there are a lot of users from Sibley to South Suburban College, and whether the transfer opportunity for them from the proposed 350 to the proposed 348 are adequate.
  
• Pace is again attempting to kill what it tried before: 831 (for most intents), and 835. Usually they are more successful doing this during a restructuring than per route.
  
• One out of territory route--Yorktown-Warrenville, but I guess they needed something to replace 888. Again, I wonder if there will be seamless transfers at Yorktown, especially if 877 gets delayed on the TriState.
  

I suppose that the real imponderable is whether sufficient resources will be put into the demand response services (and especially to overcome the view that they are just another form of paratransit). The Oak Park shuttle is the only one I know that appears to be a regular route, although run with paratransit equipment. I have previously said, however, that it makes more sense to run a $100,000 conversion vehicle than a $278,000 bus (the cost of a 2600), if the demand is not there.

At this stage, you have the local and regional alternatives. The first North Shore posting had 3 alternatives, including one based on converting 626 to a BRT on the old North Shore Railroad right of way. That died real quickly, and by the second round of forums, there was only one proposal per route. The Powerpoint says that there will also be a second round of forums in South, and based on the North Shore experience, the alternatives will change by the time they go to public hearings.

Also, if I were placing my bets, most of the restructuring will be based on the Local Alternative. Pace apparently has federal funding for the Harvey-Rosemont bus. There might be funding for one or two more Regional Alternatives, but I really doubt that you will see something like 348 to Moraine Valley College (at least this year). This is similar to the Fox-SW DuPage proposal having all sorts of express feeders and the like, but all you got from that was a restructuring in Aurora and the Randall Road extension. CMAQ eventually paid for 714.

So this was not as shocking as what I supposed from what the two of you said. If anything surprises me, it is that there is so much business on Sibley that it needs both local and express buses.

[westing]

So if you have that time as I do to read what these proposed changes, you will be shocked and surprised.

No kidding, I am shocked about a few of the routes. For the routes I'm concerned about they seem to be making good changes. I was happy to see the changes made to the 382. Yet, with such little service left, I doubt theres even a need for any 382. Maybe this is just the first punch that will eventually lead to its complete temination. A gentle letdown I guess. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the entire service go, its not well patronized at all.

I was very shocked to learn about the 384/386 being cut from operating to Orland Park Mall. But then again having two routes operate to Orland Square is overkill. I applaud their decision to add weekend service to the 385. Oak Lawn and the surrounding suburbs are more dense suburbs and get far more ridership than tradition suburbs. I can imagine Sunday service would go over well for shoppers and trips to downtown.

I was unsure about their idea to straighten the 386. This would eliminate any transfers to the very busy 381 (since there is a cloverleaf intersection at 95th (381) and Harlem (386) ). However, the 381 would be rerouted to serve part of Harlem giving everyone a transfer opportunity again. I don't like how this completely eliminates bus service along 95th where two medium shopping plazas are served but serving the courthouse and traveling in more dense residential areas is better overall.

The 379 changes are genius. Linking Moraine Valley College with Orland Square Mall is much better than any link to Orland previously found in the 386/384. The route would be much better linked with the people it serves. This would also give Orland Park residents a link to the local community college.

I'll be sad to see the interesting route 831 leave Midway but I can't say its unjustified. Its a very comfortable easy way to travel to Orland Square. Unfortunately its not well patronized and once again is redundant service with the new 379 and it mostly runs express anyways.

(Also take a look at the 385 map. It still says Omni in the close-up view, even though Omni has been gone for years!! Makes you wonder how many errors like these must still be on Pace maps?)

[Busjack]

Yet, with such little service left, I doubt theres even a need for any 382.

At some point, there were separate 380 and 382 routes. The part of 382 proposed to be retained is the old 380. Apparently needed as an industrial feeder, but one of the alternatives has it running only to Ford City.

Obviously, westing is more familiar with SW, while I am more familiar with S.

[MetroShadow]

(Also take a look at the 385 map. It still says Omni in the close-up view, even though Omni has been gone for years!! Makes you wonder how many errors like these must still be on Pace maps?)

On some 270 maps, they still show the 41 having service along Milwaukee to Devon...if that's what you're asking =p

[Busjack]

The 379 changes are genius. Linking Moraine Valley College with Orland Square Mall is much better than any link to Orland previously found in the 386/384. The route would be much better linked with the people it serves. This would also give Orland Park residents a link to the local community college.

Looking at a Rand McNally street atlas, it looks like long parts of the conceptual 379 and 386 routes in the Palos area go through forest preserves: from 111th on the west side of MVC to LaGrange Road and about 125th, and Harlem from 131st to 151st (including the spooky Bachelor Grove). That may explain why the current routes of 384 and 386 are so snaky, but is the Palos area so weak in generating traffic that the decision was just to connect the points on either side, and speed through the forest preserves?

[westing]

That may explain why the current routes of 384 and 386 are so snaky, but is the Palos area so weak in generating traffic that the decision was just to connect the points on either side, and speed through the forest preserves?

Palos Park is definitely a weak in generating traffic. The community is constructed to not be very dense and retain a woodland charm. Without sidewalks there isn't much opportunity for ridership. Parts of the 384 travel down really tight roads with some rather high dips. I can't imagine drivers must like traversing them daily. The only real traffic generator on the 384 being lost besides Orland Square is the Palos Community Hospital. Some commuters might take the Metra which stops a few blocks away. The Orland Park segment is decent but was mainly contingent on the Orland Square connection.

Even though the proposed 386 will run through some forest preserves, right on the southern side starts a large commercial development with numerous big box stores and shopping plazas. This opens up many opportunities for customers. The old 386 route ran through almost all woodland areas too. Its too rural to support a bus line. The only decent segment along LaGrange will be duplicated with the 379.

[Guest metralink]

Has anyone heard what's going on with the restructuring? They were supposed to have new public meetings I thought this month.

I wonder if the restructuring will be impacted by the doom and gloom from the RTA on budget cuts?

[pace2322]

Ok here is the 1st phase thats going to happing sometime in oct.

The 355 will not run at all anymore that will be cut. The 349 will only go to 95th and western. 352 will run with only like 6 city stops. No more express buses down i-57 to harvey.the 357 will go to Joliet and will stop at Lincoln Mail. the 358 will go down rt 30 to Lincoln Mail. The 370 will be cut. I will find out more asap.

[Busjack]

I'm glad Lincoln has mail. Maybe it will be delivered to the Lincoln Mall.

Is this the restructuring, or Pace's doomsday plan? October seems premature for the restructuring, as that would take 2 more rounds of public hearings. Or is this more garage gossip? Perhaps, as in the case of the CTA cutbacks, we should wait for the official announcement (and even then wonder if Government Affairs gets that right).

[Busjack]

Pace just posted its announcement on the second group of public forums, and reiterated that another round of public hearings would be required before it implemented anything in the restructuring. That's the official word.

[Guest metralink]

], we should wait for the official announcement (and even then wonder if Government Affairs gets that right).

would you quit bashing Pace, I'd bet on them before the other transit agencies, at least they tell it like it is and are pretty much straight shooters. They really do want to improve service, it must be hard though without adaquate resources from the region.

I saw the website too, they are going forward with restructuring, these would not be their cuts as Pace's budget is so small already. CTA will bleed a bit in their cuts, Pace will need to get deeper as there is so little fat in the system as opposed to the CTA.

[trainman8119]

would you quit bashing Pace, I'd bet on them before the other transit agencies, at least they tell it like it is and are pretty much straight shooters.

What Busjack said was not a bash. This is a bash. If you believe they tell it like it is, think again. They are as good at BSing as anybody. Remember they are run by nothing but politicians who love nothing more to play politics. Their main goal is to schmooz anybody they can schmooz and could care less about their riding public, contraer to what they say. They can pull the wool over your eyes as good as anybody. What Pace2322 stated may have been garage banter, but I would believe more of the things he says over what would be leaked to the news media. Pace officals can cry the sky is falling as good as if not better than the CTA. The powers that be may say that there will be additional public hearings on the restructuring matter, but I would be willing to bet the ranch that they have an idea as to what they will do and the public hearings are nothing but a formality and there would not be anything anyone could say that would change anything. Once again...I speak from experience of watching these guys first hand and up close at headquarters. One of the biggest creeps and little slime balls there are is TJ Ross. I wouldn't trust anything this guy says or does.

P.S. Intergovernmental Affairs is very much in the loop when it comes to what is going on...one of the best smoozing departments the company has...unfortunately, there has always been an ego rift between them and the communications department (as well as customer service, which at one time was under the communications department banner, but now is not even located at the headquarters office)...therefore, Intergov knows, communications doesn't...so the info gets disjointed.

[Busjack]

I'm not joining trainman's bash, even though he worked there and probably knows more than I do about Pace headquarters. I had previously made an observation about apparent cognitive dissonance in their press releases, and how their Government Affairs office doesn't recognize the North Shore division. I have also previously noted that while Pace seems to do a good job with limited resources, it continually indicates, including in the Moving Beyond Congestion plan and the Moving into the Future series supporting it, that if it received as much money as it wants, it would spend it wastefully, such as, in this case, reinstating Route 636, which did not and could not work, or as trainman points out, requesting an earmark for traffic signal priority on Rand Road and then saying it will put a route there. So, to that limited extent, I agree.

Because I participated in the forums on the North Shore restructuring, I certainly don't agree with his observations there. While Pace may have some preconceived notions, such as that the restructuring must result in a 7% savings (not mentioned at the meetings, but mentioned in its budget) and that the IBS says some routes have low productivity, and thus should be trimmed, it did hold the three rounds of hearings, and it did make changes based on participants' input. For instance, the second round plan was to have Route 423 as it then existed (to Kraft) extended into Northbrook and have Route 422 loop back at Willow-Patriot and go south to Harlem. My question was that since this cut Northbrook off from Old Orchard, would there be a scheduled transfer point on Willow, or would one have to wait 55 minutes on the Willow-Lehigh Ave. bridge to make the connection? The result--the current configuration, where Route 422 serves Northbrook. Not the best answer, since they cut the portion of former Route 212 that went directly between Old Orchard and Evanston, increasing the trip by 15 minutes, but better than nothing. But let me assure you, they did listen to the old lady who said "this is all predetermined, you don't care about the old people."

Hence, with the restructurings, at least, I am more willing to believe the official announcements than garage banter. The South Cook-Will is being conducted in exactly the same manner as the North Shore, including having the second round of forums in different locations than the first (Calumet City was not included in the first round, even though Route 355 was affected; it is included in the second). Whether Pace implements anything in the plan other than the cuts (such as to Route 353 to Thornton or Route 355 via Hegwisch) depends on whether it has the resources to do it (as demonstrated in the Fox-West DuPage restructuring).

Anyone who has read my posts knows that any criticism I have of Pace is mild compared to what I have said, with adequate supporting evidence, about the posturing incompetents at CTA, including Carole Brown, Frank Kruesi, Richard Winston, whoever comes up with the Sunday only Doomsday plans, whoever allocates buses to garages and violates the service standards (oh, I said I would back off of that if the buses in the 1600-2029 range first go to 103rd and 74th), whoever thinks failing to press labor negotiations and relying on arbitration is a good idea, whoever thinks the only source of talent is City Hall or the Department of Aviation, etc. They only rely on their Public Affairs Department to try to convince the public to go along with their view, no matter how illogical it is. I'm glad that the Auditor General "cleaned their clocks" and made many of the same points I did when I wrote to my state legislators. Unfortunately, Ron hasn't cleaned house yet. (It does it appear that two of their flacks, Robyn Ziegler and Ibis Antongiorgi have other jobs now, but the Sun-Times reports that Todd Stroger put the latter on his bloated county payroll. Sheila Gregory, who doesn't ride the bus, is apparently still around.) Also, you don't see Carole updating her blog very often any more, or saying anything substantive in it, because she knows she won't garner any support for her Springfield agenda there.

As for garage banter, I'm no longer putting stock into that either, such as There here saying that the 2600s were in Aurora as of June 3, 2006, when they did not start deliveries until October, about when Pace announced them. Both the banter and the Pace press releases were wrong about when Niles and Highland Park would start operating them, and we'll see again this afternoon if they are in operation in Niles yet.

Please let me know if any of this is unjustified.

[trainman8119]

Please let me know if any of this is unjustified.

I will back your comments stating they are not unjustified. I will back off a little on the public hearing comments and go with you since you were part of the public hearings and I was not. However...I would not put it past them to try to get away with implementing something only to back off for fear of political pressure, more than the actual public outcry.

There is something to be said about garage banter. Rumours always fly around the trainroom/garage based on who is in the know. You tend to learn who to trust and who is full of beans. I think we see that here in the forums. Those of us who have to deal with this everyday are always looking for a clue to what may happen so that we can be prepared for it when the poop flies.

I'll always value your views and opinions...they are usually right on the money !!!!!!!!

[qwantae]

No kidding, I am shocked about a few of the routes. For the routes I'm concerned about they seem to be making good changes. I was happy to see the changes made to the 382. Yet, with such little service left, I doubt theres even a need for any 382. Maybe this is just the first punch that will eventually lead to its complete temination. A gentle letdown I guess. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the entire service go, its not well patronized at all.

I was very shocked to learn about the 384/386 being cut from operating to Orland Park Mall. But then again having two routes operate to Orland Square is overkill. I applaud their decision to add weekend service to the 385. Oak Lawn and the surrounding suburbs are more dense suburbs and get far more ridership than tradition suburbs. I can imagine Sunday service would go over well for shoppers and trips to downtown.

I was unsure about their idea to straighten the 386. This would eliminate any transfers to the very busy 381 (since there is a cloverleaf intersection at 95th (381) and Harlem (386) ). However, the 381 would be rerouted to serve part of Harlem giving everyone a transfer opportunity again. I don't like how this completely eliminates bus service along 95th where two medium shopping plazas are served but serving the courthouse and traveling in more dense residential areas is better overall.

The 379 changes are genius. Linking Moraine Valley College with Orland Square Mall is much better than any link to Orland previously found in the 386/384. The route would be much better linked with the people it serves. This would also give Orland Park residents a link to the local community college.

I'll be sad to see the interesting route 831 leave Midway but I can't say its unjustified. Its a very comfortable easy way to travel to Orland Square. Unfortunately its not well patronized and once again is redundant service with the new 379 and it mostly runs express anyways.

(Also take a look at the 385 map. It still says Omni in the close-up view, even though Omni has been gone for years!! Makes you wonder how many errors like these must still be on Pace maps?)

I am very shocked about 831 Joliet, Everytime Im at Midway Station transferring, there are about 10-20 people waiting on 831, not 386. Maybe its that RTA wants people to pay more money to ride the Metra otherwise take Cermak 21 to 322 all the way to Yorktown for 834 to Joliet, it will take about 5 hours, its not fair.

[Busjack]

I am very shocked about 831 Joliet, Everytime Im at Midway Station transferring, there are about 10-20 people waiting on 831, not 386. Maybe its that RTA wants people to pay more money to ride the Metra otherwise take Cermak 21 to 322 all the way to Yorktown for 834 to Joliet, it will take about 5 hours, its not fair.

As westing and I understood the presentation, one would take 379 to Orland Square, and then transfer to 831. If people were using it to ride between Orland Square and Midway, they would be able to use 379.

I wonder if the Saturday Stateville Prison express would be retained.

831 has always been a weak route. At the time in the late 1990s when they tried to cancel it, Pace accepted the suggestion to reroute most trips from via Lemont to via 143rd to Orland Square.

As is clear from the failed mediation over Pace's complaint that CTA was overrunning routes 307 and 322, the RTA can't make the service boards do anything; its only power appears to be to say there isn't any more money, so make a contingency plan.

For being here about a week, you have spread a lot of misconceptions.

[Guest metralink]

anyone been to one of the restructuring public forums? wonder what they are saying with the proposed service cuts?

[Busjack]

anyone been to one of the restructuring public forums? wonder what they are saying with the proposed service cuts?

From yesterday's Moving into the Future, nothing.

[CircleSeven]

Ok here is the 1st phase thats going to happing sometime in oct.

The 355 will not run at all anymore that will be cut. The 349 will only go to 95th and western. 352 will run with only like 6 city stops. No more express buses down i-57 to harvey.the 357 will go to Joliet and will stop at Lincoln Mail. the 358 will go down rt 30 to Lincoln Mail. The 370 will be cut. I will find out more asap.

Okay, after going to Blue Island this morning at the public hearing, All of what pace2322 stated was true. The Implementation will end up being in two phases but you know they will end up tweaking some more routes they proposed in around August and whether if the State's can resolved their new budget issues. Now what Pace is doing is trying their damndest to not duplicating service as what the Auditor's General were saying to Pace, CTA and Metra. What I say about the South Western Issue since they are proposing the 349 to end at 'the Plaza', CTA need to have the 49 Western ending at 95th between 4am-1am and cut the 49A. Or let Pace keep the exisiting 349 and cut the 49A. Because if CTA don't pitch in, Once the X49 Stops running, there will be no local service on Western from 95th & 79th. That would be stupid putting more service on the 49A and the 349 is running almost as frequent. Now Pace has really done a good job to proposed the limited stops on Halsted Street and Cicero Avenue. The 352 will only stop on 95th, 103rd, 107th, 111th, 115th, 119th, 123rd & 127th. I'm surprised they dropped 99th from the stops but to me that's a good thing. On the Cicero side From Midway, the only stops will be 63rd, 71st at the Wal-Mart and then Ford City leaving the 54B to pick up all of the passengers on the other stops. All of the new proposed restructuring plans will be posted on the Pace website next week.

[renardo870]

B) Well, I looked @the 2nd round of proposals & its a doozy. First Pace South: 348 is good, including servicing Morraine Valley and South Suburban College, Indiana/State St, Blue Island. It will probably get help from Southwest. 349 is interesting but will it make all stops btwn 95th and 119th if CTA cuts the 49A? CTA (cuts or no cuts)would have to bring the 49 to the Plaza but that would be a lot of buses over there. The 350 and the new 355 should just combine into one route so Lansing can get to the MELEC and have weekend access to Calumet City, Dolton, Hammond and Harvey. 352 would be a mini-express all the time (darn I guess the 8A/108 would have to work a little harder) and provide lots of service on the old 370 portion, 353 is great...finally a route to River Oaks from 95th without going to Harvey first. The 354 is a interesting loop serving Harvey, Markham, Country Club Hills, Oak Forest, Midlothian, Posen, Dixmoor, Harvey. 357 eliminated?! I thought they were trying to combine 357 with 506 to make a regional route from the Heights to Joliet..ie the 208. Instead they are going to put the 358 and 367 to the task? I like the March proposals better. I know it comes down to funding but that is sad. The 359 needs to add service, the 364 is ok, the 366 not going to Richton Park or Lincoln Mall/Lawrence Manor from the backend...Park Forest needs get a bus to that area. The other proposal Ford Heights/S Chgo Hts circulator was a good idea. 367/368 ok. The 877/888 combo is cool and the 889 is sweet Harvey to Rosemont going thru Blue Island or Robbins. It should cut about 30 plus minutes per trip. The old way being 352 to 95th, Red line to Jackson, Blue line to Rosemont; damn near 2 hours!

Pace SW. Everything is good with 379/381/382/383/384/385, including the Cicero limited stops. 386 is super long. I do like the 73rd portion to replace 382. Pace South is going to have to help out the Harvey/183rd/Midway portion. I had like the 1st proposal going to Washington Sq. They can use service from Homewood to the mall via 183rd. The 835 is going to to be put to sleep. I guess the few passengers who ride it will get on the Southwest Service, or take the 384/386 to Midway.

Pace Heritage: Not too familiar with Joliet but it seems Joliet is getting kind of shortchanged. Its like saying people in Joliet don't go anywhere outside of Joliet except Orland Square/Bolingbrook/Yorktown. I hope they fight for the 357/506 Chicago Hts/Joliet route and the I-80 express route. 507 should connect to Plainfield/Fox Valley Mall/Route 59 Metra. Oh yeah, they get and extra hour to play with. That's expanded service for you. I like the 837, but it needs to come down Weber all the way to Larkin. The 855 into Plainfield is good, too. Joliet has about 100,000 residents and I just feel that service should spoke out to Naperville/FoxValley to connect with Auroua route 530/535 and BNSF, Chicago Heights to connect with 352/357/358/366/367/368, Tinley Park to connect with the jobs near 183rd and the 386 going to Homewood.

The flex service is a good start in Channahon/Shorewood/W Joilet/Homewood-Chgo Hts.

I hope funding comes thru as Moving Beyond Congestion/Pace/CTA/Metra/RTA puts our elected officials up to task. Gas is getting ridiculous, even though its dropping. Im sure if service doesn't expand and Springfield don't allow us to change the tax situation in the 6 county area to help ourselves, I am sure we will remember them in the next election.

[Busjack]

Thanks for the report. That got me to look for an official link, which is here.

Also, it is necessary to distinguish renumberings due to interlining (i.e. 357 becomes 358 without any significant change to 357) from outright cancellations (such as 382 and 835). The local press isn't good at distinguishing. In the North Shore case, the Pioneer Press consistently printed that route 212 was being eliminated, while in fact it became part of route 422. You are correct that the Joliet to Lincoln Mall link isn't in the second round, whether considered part of 357 or 506.

I noted that two things I earlier said would happen and was not in the first round was in the second: cutting down on 353 to 136th trips and cutting out 355 to the Loop (as pace2322 said would happen). And with Pace properly cutting back local service north of the city limit (I say they should cut more), is CTA really going to go ahead with its poorly conceived South restructuring without taking Pace's justified cuts into account? That's why we need regional planning, as mandated by SB 572.

Any audience reactions?

[renardo870]

B) If CTA/Pace had done a Regional Restructuring together, it probably would have looked great. Cooperation btwn the two would help everyone in the region. Like I said before, the 349 ending @95th, the 352/353 skip-stop between 95th and 127th on Halsted and King/Michigan, respectively, the skip-stop of 381 btwn 95th CTA and Western, and the Cicero skip-stop btwn Midway and Ford City forces CTA to keep their local services, esp the 8A/108, 49A and 54B, while pace will improve on reliability. It is possible that Pace will raise their fares to match CTA "current fares" and keep the premium fares on the 855, 877 and 889. It probably will make other pace routes skip stop service like 215 (Dodge/California to Howard), 270 (Devon and Jeff Park), 307 (btwn Grand and Lake), 322 (54/Cermak to North Riverside) and others. That transfer policy should be revisited "no transfers on CTA". Let's see what happens.

[Busjack]

It probably will make other pace routes skip stop service like 215 (Dodge/California to Howard), 270 (Devon and Jeff Park)

As far as 215, North Shore was done 2 years ago, and the north side of Howard is suburban. With regard to 270, rush hour is supposed to be express between Jeff Pk and Devon, and 56A/270 are otherwise timed that 56A provides trips between Pace runs (thereby providing 10 minute service south of Devon, while 270 itself runs every 20 minutes). Hence, there theoretically hasn't been competition on N. Milwaukee.

However, I agree that CTA and Pace did a better job in 1997 in coordinating service on the fringes, while there seems to be no effort now. I agree with your points about 49A.

322 (54/Cermak to North Riverside)

This raises the issue that the extension of 22 past 54th is completely in suburban territory. Letting that stand would reinforce the precedent (established by 422) that Pace should back off whenever CTA encroaches, no matter what the effect on its ridership. I would argue the opposite, that the 22 and 90 extensions should be rescinded under SB 572.