Bustracker's buses

[nextstopchicago]

If that is not considered bus bunching to you, then what is ????? What should be noted, is that with this wonderful "toy", and with bunching supposed to be such a "high priority problem", nothing is being done to address it. To me, still a big waste of money !!!!!

Yesterday morning, I was waiting at Hermitage for the Lawrence bus westbound. I had already noted a big gap on the street, and the bunched buses that were approaching my stop, before walking out to the corner. I arrived at the corner with good timing (thanks, Tracker), about 2 minutes before the bus came. Several people were waiting, and at least one showed he was irritated, like he'd been there a while (that could have been me before the Tracker.)

Anyway, the bus pulled through Ashland, and we all edged towards the curb ... and it went flying by us.

We looked on with a bit of frustration, then everyone looked over and realized a second bus was already pulling up to Ashland.

The first bus stopped at the Metra tracks as our bus picked us up. We passed him by Damen, and then I started reading so I don't know what happened after that.

I had almost never seen a bus intentionally pass a crowded stop prior to tracker. I have to assume that the drivers had been given a message by supervisors who noticed that the route was bunched. It worked very well.

You're never going to eliminate bunching, for many of the reasons that are talked about here and elsewhere. You can definitely minimize the problems of bunching with good remote supervision. That's what tracker allows, and that's what I saw yesterday.

It may not happen yet on every route, so it's possible the screen-shot you guys were looking at reflects "doing nothing". But it's also true that if they were ordering two buses to skip-stop with each other, they'd still appear bunched on the screen, so you'd have no idea whether anything was being done, or whether they were aggressively dealing with the problem.

[To understand why this is the best we can get, one has to recognize, as is easy to see on tracker, that the problem isn't the bunch ... it's the gap. The problem in that picture isn't that there are two buses on top of each other -- it's that there are no buses west of them. You can't solve that problem by slowing one bus down. That just makes the gap bigger. The only partial solution once they're bunched is to have them coordinate in order to keep the supposed leader from falling even farther behind. If there is a little slack at the end of the route, they may be able to start from scratch on the return trip.]

[Busjack]

But it's also true that if they were ordering two buses to skip-stop with each other, they'd still appear bunched on the screen, so you'd have no idea whether anything was being done, or whether they were aggressively dealing with the problem.

Skip stopping isn't new, except, perhaps to the extent the RedEye said that the former rule was that the driver had to make all stops, no matter what. The bus that didn't stop at Ashland probably shouldn't have stopped at Ravenswood either (I would say that if the supervision is really active, the first pick up should have been somewhere around Western).

Assuming that the 47 chart was accurate (and there doesn't seem to be any indication that buses aren't transmitting on the 74 routes any more, although it is possible), it doesn't seem satisfactory to have 3 buses right together in the middle of the route with nothing, especially to the west. That time of day the bus is supposed to run once every 12 minutes, not 3 buses at once every 36!

[To understand why this is the best we can get, one has to recognize, as is easy to see on tracker, that the problem isn't the bunch ... it's the gap. The problem in that picture isn't that there are two buses on top of each other -- it's that there are no buses west of them. You can't solve that problem by slowing one bus down. That just makes the gap bigger. The only partial solution once they're bunched is to have them coordinate in order to keep the supposed leader from falling even farther behind. If there is a little slack at the end of the route, they may be able to start from scratch on the return trip.]

Also, I continue not to understand why people continue to posit hold up the trailer, and then shoot down that strawman. The methodology should involve getting the leader back on schedule, which you recognize. I'm just saying that if there is active service control, it would be more than just tell the driver to miss one stop and let the buses play leapfrog.

(BTW, there was a 47 bus sitting at Lake Park that left about 5 minutes after this shot, so something eventually was going to be westbound from the east, but still a heck of a gap in that interval).

[nextstopchicago]

Skip stopping isn't new, except, perhaps to the extent the RedEye said that the former rule was that the driver had to make all stops, no matter what. The bus that didn't stop at Ashland probably shouldn't have stopped at Ravenswood either (I would say that if the supervision is really active, the first pick up should have been somewhere around Western).

Skip-stopping that I've seen involves passing leap-frogging buses. This was different in that the leader passed a stop letting the follower pick it up. Actually more time-effective, and something I've not seen, though you may be right that it is sometimes done.

Also, I continue not to understand why people continue to posit hold up the trailer, and then shoot down that strawman. The methodology should involve getting the leader back on schedule, which you recognize. I'm just saying that if there is active service control, it would be more than just tell the driver to miss one stop and let the buses play leapfrog.

Fair enough. One reason reformers keep holding up the straw man of holding the trailer back is that there are regularly people who talk about that as a solution. But you clearly don't.

[Buslover88]

If that is not considered bus bunching to you, then what is ?????

When three or more buses are DIRECTY on top of each other, bumper to bumper. If they are a few blocks within each other, then that's not really bus bunching, to me anyway. I don't know what you consider bus bunching, so don't go telling me what I should think what is bus bunching and what's not. I was being nice in my last post and I plan on remaining nice in this thread, but I don't have to be. Next time, you should note that I said "what APPEARED to be" and not actually happening.

[Busjack]

When three or more buses are DIRECTY on top of each other, bumper to bumper. If they are a few blocks within each other, then that's not really bus bunching, to me anyway. I don't know what you consider bus bunching, so don't go telling me what I should think what is bus bunching and what's not. I was being nice in my last post and I plan on remaining nice in this thread, but I don't have to be. Next time, you should note that I said "what APPEARED to be" and not actually happening.

No argument with your opinion.

However, three buses within 3 blocks, with nothing on the rest of the route, sure looks like bunching to me. Maybe using techniques mentioned by nextstopchicago, they could get a couple of blocks apart, but I would consider bus bunching to exist if the interval is way off from what is published, i.e. the next 2 buses within 3 minutes, and then nothing for the next half hour, instead of every 12.

The service standard is whether a bus is a minute early or 5 late at a time point, but my personal opinion is the interval is important (i.e. if all buses are running 12 minutes late, there is no problem in my book). In any event, the CD apparently shows how off schedule the bus is.

[Buslover88]

However, three buses within 3 blocks, with nothing on the rest of the route, sure looks like bunching to me. Maybe using techniques mentioned by nextstopchicago, they could get a couple of blocks apart, but I would consider bus bunching to exist if the interval is way off from what is published, i.e. the next 2 buses within 3 minutes, and then nothing for the next half hour, instead of every 12.

In a way it is (for me), but what I really think is bus bunching is three buses right behind each other.

[nextstopchicago]

No argument with your opinion.

However, three buses within 3 blocks, with nothing on the rest of the route, sure looks like bunching to me. Maybe using techniques mentioned by nextstopchicago, they could get a couple of blocks apart, but I would consider bus bunching to exist if the interval is way off from what is published, i.e. the next 2 buses within 3 minutes, and then nothing for the next half hour, instead of every 12.

The service standard is whether a bus is a minute early or 5 late at a time point, but my personal opinion is the interval is important (i.e. if all buses are running 12 minutes late, there is no problem in my book). In any event, the CD apparently shows how off schedule the bus is.

This disagreement gets at why I think we use the wrong term. The bunch isn't the problem. The gap is the problem. There is a huge unscheduled bus gap in front of those three, so clearly there is a huge problem, regardless of whether buses can be considered bunched even if there is a block or two or a minute or two separating them.

I think the problem should be called bus gapping.

[trainman8119]

Talk about bunching, around 1:30 Saturday, there were two 124's (New Flyers) back to back at Michigan and Randolph...followed by another (Flxible) about 5 minutes later.

Also, 3's, 4's and 60's routinely arrive in pairs at Michigan and Randolph midday. Many times the 60's come in threes.

[jajuan]

Talk about bunching, around 1:30 Saturday, there were two 124's (New Flyers) back to back at Michigan and Randolph...followed by another (Flxible) about 5 minutes later.

Also, 3's, 4's and 60's routinely arrive in pairs at Michigan and Randolph midday. Many times the 60's come in threes.

I can say that's been true of the 60 for as long as I can remember going all the way back to the days when it was a Lawndale route when I was a kid. There have been times I've seen the 60 come in fours sometimes fives during rush hour in its Lawndale and Kedzie days. I've been amazed at how no matter what garage this route was assigned during all the time of my life that I've been old enough to observe transit patterns, it has consistantly averaged three at a time no matter what day of the week.

[BusHunter]

I can say that's been true of the 60 for as long as I can remember going all the way back to the days when it was a Lawndale route when I was a kid. There have been times I've seen the 60 come in fours sometimes fives during rush hour in its Lawndale and Kedzie days. I've been amazed at how no matter what garage this route was assigned during all the time of my life that I've been old enough to observe transit patterns, it has consistantly averaged three at a time no matter what day of the week.

I once saw 6 buses bunched together on the #9. Lately it seems as if service is more off schedule. I am also noticing major crowds on buses in outlying areas where you wouldn't expect it, like a standing load at Addison/Central westbound. Quite a few people must be riding the bus versus driving. It's even on the "L". A standing load at Jeff PK. westbound on the Blue line is normal nowadays in rush hour. Ridership must really be up.

[nextstopchicago]

I was intending to pick up my business partner this morning at the el but he called ahead and said he was checking the Tracker on his PDA, and since the buses were at regular intervals, he didn't need me.

As far as I know, he's not a transit geek or anything, and I haven't been proselytizing. I'm pretty sure he doesn't even take transit to his other job. He just realized he could do it, and eliminated a vehicle trip by checking tracker and seeing that the situation was normal on the route he might use.

[jajuan]

Just got to love this. The 12 Roosevelt's new west terminal as of yesterday is now at Central/Harrison with the 7 and 85. Bustracker doesn't show that. It shows the west terminal as being Roosevelt/Mason, a half block before Austin. There are no longer any stops on Roosevelt west of Central. The buses turn off Roosevelt at Central to head straight to Central/Harrison bus terminal. Interestingly enough, the destination signs display '12 to CENTRAL/HARRISON' (shown on two lines for the NFs), but the announcement system announces 'Route 12 Roosevelt to Austin'. That probably explains why the westbound icons on the Tracker say '12 to Roosevelt & Mason' when you place the mouse on them and the westbound stops show '12 to Austin' when listing the next few WB arrivals as the mouse is placed over them. Now this is something to confuse riders.

[Chicago13]

Just got to love this. The 12 Roosevelt's new west terminal as of yesterday is now at Central/Harrison with the 7 and 85. Bustracker doesn't show that. It shows the west terminal as being Roosevelt/Mason, a half block before Austin. There are no longer any stops on Roosevelt west of Central. The buses turn off Roosevelt at Central to head straight to Central/Harrison bus terminal. Interestingly enough, the destination signs display '12 to CENTRAL/HARRISON' (shown on two lines for the NFs), but the announcement system announces 'Route 12 Roosevelt to Austin'. That probably explains why the westbound icons on the Tracker say '12 to Roosevelt & Mason' when you place the mouse on them and the westbound stops show '12 to Austin' when listing the next few WB arrivals as the mouse is placed over them. Now this is something to confuse riders.

To add to the confusion, there were originally two separate Customer Alerts posted on CTA's website with the same date--One said the new terminal is Central/Harrison, the other said the Monitor turnaround will no longer be used with the buses turning around via Austin/Fillmore/Mason back to Roosevelt. The latter has since been removed from the site.

Anyone know the reason for the change? It seems to have come out of nowhere.

[jajuan]

To add to the confusion, there were originally two separate Customer Alerts posted on CTA's website with the same date--One said the new terminal is Central/Harrison, the other said the Monitor turnaround will no longer be used with the buses turning around via Austin/Fillmore/Mason back to Roosevelt. The latter has since been removed from the site.

Anyone know the reason for the change? It seems to have come out of nowhere.

I actually didn't know about the current Customer Alert or the route change until today, after finally noticing that all the westbound Roosevelt buses were displaying that they were going to Central/Harrison and going back and finding the alert that's up now stating the west terminal had indeed been changed to Central/Harrison.

[Busjack]

....

I think the problem should be called bus gapping.

Following the CTA Tattler link from the home page, it appears that Huberman now agrees with you.

Of course, Tattler Kevin is confused again by saying "In December of last year about 90 buses were of the street due to maintenance issues. That number is dropping as the CTA has leased new hybrid buses." We all know those haven't hit the street yet; the improvement is a result of getting D40LFs, if anything.

Also, there is a commentator with the chicken and egg approach.

Now that the big guy appears to agree with you and me regarding the symptom, maybe we can get him a more effective cure.

[Busjack]

Anyone know the reason for the change? It seems to have come out of nowhere.

I actually didn't know about the current Customer Alert or the route change until today, after finally noticing that all the westbound Roosevelt buses were displaying that they were going to Central/Harrison and going back and finding the alert that's up now stating the west terminal had indeed been changed to Central/Harrison.

This is the second stealth move, the first being the 77/76 switch to the Nature Museum. Does anyone have an explanation (such as 12 being bunched in the last half mile, hard as that is to believe)? Is there unmet demand on Central between Harrison and Roosevelt, or is CTA just giving the Roosevelt section to Pace 305?

[jajuan]

This is the second stealth move, the first being the 77/76 switch to the Nature Museum. Does anyone have an explanation (such as 12 being bunched in the last half mile, hard as that is to believe)? Is there unmet demand on Central between Harrison and Roosevelt, or is CTA just giving the Roosevelt section to Pace 305?

I've heard people ask why the 85 Central doesn't go past Harrison to connect with the 12, but the number of people asking for it has been miniscule. If this were the reason, the CTA gave it in reverse by bringing the Roosevelt bus to the 85 instead. It can't be bunching because any bunching I've seen has always been on the opposite end near the Museum Campus. Could it be to decrease the overlap with Pace 305? There has been past griping about overlaps between Pace and CTA near the city limits, some of which I didn't understand or agree with.

Now how about why Bustracker shows the west terminal as Roosevelt/Mason instead of Central/Harrison?

[Busjack]

Now how about why Bustracker shows the west terminal as Roosevelt/Mason instead of Central/Harrison?

That seems simpler--nobody reprogrammed it (or probably the CD, either). I'm surprised they got the signs reprogrammed. Remember the 76 driver who said the console said he was late.

After all, Pace hasn't redone a map since 2004.

[jajuan]

You're right about this being a stealth move. There were no notices placed on the stops stating that the 12 Roosevelt's west terminal was changing on Sunday. To add to the confusion that could come about, I noticed today that the 6000s placed in service on the route still display '12 TO MONITOR' when traveling westbound. They managed to reprogram the NFs' signs but not the Flxibles'. With this being the first permanent rerouting of this route since the 1997-98 BoozAllen cuts, you'd think they'd give riders more notice about this change.

[jajuan]

Well that issue with the 12 Roosevelt's new west terminal not being correct on Bustracker is partially solved late this evening. The map now shows the buses going to Central/Harrison with the westbound icons and stops indicating 12 to Central/Harrison. However, the map is also still showing stops leading to Roosevelt/Mason with arrival times showing on those stops though those times are for the Central/Harrison terminal. I'm guessing the stops west of Roosevelt/Central will be removed by tomorrow. Now they just have to fix the destination signs on the 6000s so that they stop displaying 12 to Monitor and show 12 to Central/Harrison instead.

[Kevin]

Was playing around with Google's 2001 search index (released as part of their 10 year anniversary) and came across this Tribune article from October 5, 2000: CTA looks to sky to fix bus bunches

[jajuan]

1823 was in service on the 147 this afternoon. Does anyone know if it showed up on Bustracker? The reason I ask is because this is the first time I saw an 1800 numbered bus on one of NP's Bustracker routes outside of riding 1821 on 146 last month. And I have yet to see one of them show up on Bustracker. It seems NP assigns mostly its 1400s, 1500s and 1600s on these two routes. I have seen a few 1760s and 1770s show up on Bustracker for the 146, but haven't seen anything higher than that from NP yet on Bustracker. Those end up on 22, 36, 135, 136 and the other non-Bustracker NP routes.

[Busjack]

The bottom of the E-Alerts news release has the next Bus Tracker routes:

In addition, on Monday, October 20, eight additional CTA bus routes will be activated on CTA's Bus Tracker web site.

* #6 Jackson Park Express

* #11 Lincoln/Sedgwick

* #69 Cumberland/East River

* #79 79th

* #87 87th

* #145 Wilson/Michigan Express

* #151 Sheridan

* #157 Streeterville

No real discernible pattern for those of you who think it is "by garage." However, these (except 69) seem to be the heaviest not yet covered, and given that the 3 track routes were supposed to be first, 11 goes on near the end of 3 track. Apparently no more 4400s on 6, 79, and 87.

[BusExpert32]

Also, according to the list for routes to go live on October 20, North Park will have to restrict from any 5800s being assigned on the #11 and #151.

[jajuan]

Also, according to the list for routes to go live on October 20, North Park will have to restrict from any 5800s being assigned on the #11 and #151.

Also since Kedzie operates the Belmont/Halsted trips of 151, it's picking up three more live routes. Too bad I still have to wait a bit longer for the 82 to go live.