6400-series Nova LFS - Updates & Retirements

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, jajuan said:

Yes. 1248-52 at first, and then 1252-6 is what I remember being at 103rd for an extended period.

Yup. A pick after the decrowding plan went into effect this occurred and 1257 was included as well

[Dawnlight]

The question is which garage is capable of shaving off Flyers?

Does 77th and 103rd really need 180 Flyers at their garages? What if they both shaved off 30 of them for 150 each just like 74th? That's already 60 potential buses for FG. Heck what if other garages with the exception of Kedzie try to reduce their Flyers to 150 and give the remainder to FG?

[Busjack]

8 minutes ago, Dawnlight said:

The question is which garage is capable of shaving off Flyers?

Does 77th and 103rd really need 180 Flyers at their garages? What if they both shaved off 30 of them for 150 each just like 74th? That's already 60 potential buses for FG. Heck what if other garages with the exception of Kedzie try to reduce their Flyers to 150 and give the remainder to FG?

One would have thought something like that would have already happened. If nothing else, C got 78 new buses, with the net effect of pushing along or scrapping a few 6400s. Maybe a big swap (like when 74th got 1300s and 1500s) is coming.

[ChiTown]

Why Forest Glen is the only garage with just the 6400 series Novas? 

[Dawnlight]

22 hours ago, ChiTown said:

Why Forest Glen is the only garage with just the 6400 series Novas? 

Probably because CTA wanted that garage to be a holding ground for the old Novas from 77th, 74th, and Chicago while they get their new Novas. It's a lousy idea overall. This resulted in FG running for about 2 years with nothing but old buses. And to make it worse, while Chicago and 74th got their new Novas, CTA took the more up-to-date 6400's from FG and sent them to those two garages during their 7900 delivery. I hope CTA redeems themselves in 2016 after all of this nonsense they did to the NW side of Chicago.

[BusHunter]

16 minutes ago, Dawnlight said:

Probably because CTA wanted that garage to be a holding ground for the old Novas from 77th, 74th, and Chicago while they get their new Novas. It's a lousy idea overall. This resulted in FG running for about 2 years with nothing but old buses. And to make it worse, while Chicago and 74th got their new Novas, CTA took the more up-to-date 6400's from FG and sent them to those two garages during their 7900 delivery. I hope CTA redeems themselves in 2016 after all of this nonsense they did to the NW side of Chicago.

If you talk to the operators at Forest Glen, some say it is because they have the best maintenance. I think it might also have to do with security as drivers probably need the shields more at the other garages. CTA really looked bad sending the #6800's off to 74th, but they probably wanted to test out the updated clever devices and why put them on the oldest novas, but still they could have done the test at Forest Glen instead of 74th. Even now they have extra buses they could be sending to Forest Glen but they don't which leaves Fg with some pretty poor equipment. It seems half the destination signs don't work. 2/3rd's of them are probably the base order novas. I know #6543 hasn't worked in months (all signs) At least the good news is these buses should be disappearing in 4-5 months. The whole Fg garage could be replaced in 2016 - early 2017, but to me there doesn't seem enough to do that unless the floodgates of 77th #1000's should open up.

[Dawnlight]

Was it even necessary for 77th to snatch FG's 1000's away in the first place? What would have happened if FG did not serve as a 6400 retirement home and the 1000s remained there?

[jajuan]

7 minutes ago, Dawnlight said:

Was it even necessary for 77th to snatch FG's 1000's away in the first place? What would have happened if FG did not serve as a 6400 retirement home and the 1000s remained there?

If you go with the security angle, the 1000s have shields and the 6400s don't. But that ignores FG having 85 and 91 passing through Austin which can be pretty rough in spots, and 56 and 76 passing through Logan Square and Humboldt Park which both can also be a bit rough in spots as well. And that doesn't even account for FG routes serving a number of high schools with teenagers that may act rowdy enough that an FG operator may also want to be in a bus with a shield like operators in all the other garages.

[BusHunter]

10 hours ago, Dawnlight said:

Was it even necessary for 77th to snatch FG's 1000's away in the first place? What would have happened if FG did not serve as a 6400 retirement home and the 1000s remained there?

They could have still remained a retirement home for #6400's with the 60 #1000's they had. In fact that would put a lesser strain on those #6400's because most likely those #1000's would be used frequently as the base fleet. Even now look at their fleet, it's way overpopulated with buses. right now they could probably can 60 buses and it wouldn't matter. I think those extras are just hanging around cause the fleet is so poor. With 60 #1000's at least they could probably shrink that fleet by 30 buses maybe more. That's 30 buses you don't have to maintain, and these buses probably need alot of that.

[Dawnlight]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

They could have still remained a retirement home for #6400's with the 60 #1000's they had. In fact that would put a lesser strain on those #6400's because most likely those #1000's would be used frequently as the base fleet. Even now look at their fleet, it's way overpopulated with buses. right now they could probably can 60 buses and it wouldn't matter. I think those extras are just hanging around cause the fleet is so poor. With 60 #1000's at least they could probably shrink that fleet by 30 buses maybe more. That's 30 buses you don't have to maintain, and these buses probably need alot of that.

While I can give 74th the benefit of the doubt because that garage actually needs 1000s especially when that garage is home of the two largest routes in the CTA system (Routes 9 and 49) and not to mention the "X" routes, I really don't understand why 77th and 103rd need 180 Flyers each at their garage. I would say that they can shave off 30 from each garage. Since all the 1000s are fully rehabbed, wouldn't it save maintenance costs in the long run for CTA if FG had 1000s rather than old Novas?

[Busjack]

13 minutes ago, Dawnlight said:

wouldn't it save maintenance costs in the long run for CTA if FG had 1000s rather than old Novas?

That was the theory for getting new buses, but CTA must have figured it was going to be a warm winter, so put off the day of reckoning until later 2016.

[BusHunter]

15 minutes ago, Busjack said:

That was the theory for getting new buses, but CTA must have figured it was going to be a warm winter, so put off the day of reckoning until later 2016.

Also the NW side doesn't have a voice like the south side does. So who is there to complain? From an operational standpoint, I would at least let Fg have the 60 #1000 buses they had. The longer this goes on the more intentional it looks. There's only so many excuses that can be made for CTA. It should be an interesting 2016. The question still remains does Fg get #7900's or #1000's or both or do the #6400's (65 of them) hang on for 2018. All of those conclusions are possible.  

[Busjack]

19 hours ago, BusHunter said:

or do the #6400's (65 of them) hang on for 2018

In that only 125 of the 150 option were exercised, and there is still talk in the budget about electric buses, probably yes for some.

[jajuan]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

In that only 125 of the 150 option were exercised, and there is still talk in the budget about electric buses, probably yes for some.

Yes possibly. There is also the point that CTA still has an excess that should have been retired by now instead of simply moved to FG since there shouldn't be any reason that garage needs 280-some odd buses.

[sw4400]

6 hours ago, jajuan said:

Yes possibly. There is also the point that CTA still has an excess that should have been retired by now instead of simply moved to FG since there shouldn't be any reason that garage needs 280-some odd buses.

You have to figure that of those 280 buses, probably only 200-230 are fully functional or functional enough to operate on service routes. The other 40-50 are in need of major repairs like transmissions, major engine components, etc... or are awaiting green lighting from CTA Brass to tow to South Shops for eventual picking of usable parts and scrapping(CTA can use rims, window frames and some of the side panels on other Novas and perhaps even the newer Novas if necessary(the LFS and LFS Smart Buses are pretty much identical). I remember seeing Flxibles with steering wheels before that said "TMC" on the horn pad instead of "Flxible".

[jajuan]

18 hours ago, sw4400 said:

You have to figure that of those 280 buses, probably only 200-230 are fully functional or functional enough to operate on service routes. The other 40-50 are in need of major repairs like transmissions, major engine components, etc... or are awaiting green lighting from CTA Brass to tow to South Shops for eventual picking of usable parts and scrapping(CTA can use rims, window frames and some of the side panels on other Novas and perhaps even the newer Novas if necessary(the LFS and LFS Smart Buses are pretty much identical). I remember seeing Flxibles with steering wheels before that said "TMC" on the horn pad instead of "Flxible".

Maybe the windows from the front end, it they were going to do that. The LFS Smart bus has a redesigned back end so the windows from that part of the bus wouldn't really be the same as on an original design LFS.

[Dawnlight]

Do you think 700s would work well to replace a chuck of FG's Novas if CTA decides to purchase more of these? I would think they would work well for certain routes such as the 68, 81, 81W, 84, 85A, 88, 92 for those are very short FG routes.

[Busjack]

12 minutes ago, Dawnlight said:

Do you think 700s would work well to replace a chuck of FG's Novas if CTA decides to purchase more of these? I would think they would work well for certain routes such as the 68, 81, 81W, 84, 85A, 88, 92 for those are very short FG routes.

The CMAQ application said which routes: none of which were out of FG.

Problem is that with in garage charging, these are restricted to rush hour, and FG doesn't have as many trippers.

As I pointed out at the time, the only justification to tying this to the 6400 series Novas is the justification for emissions reductions.

[BusHunter]

48 minutes ago, Dawnlight said:

Do you think 700s would work well to replace a chuck of FG's Novas if CTA decides to purchase more of these? I would think they would work well for certain routes such as the 68, 81, 81W, 84, 85A, 88, 92 for those are very short FG routes.

That's like winning the lotto. The chances are like a million to one. CTA giving something new to FG is like once a 12 year span. It's a real stretch to say they'll get hybrids or electric buses. I personally think we'll see CNG's (Pace) on the NW side before we see anything alternative from CTA. I think it would be fair to give FG a piece of the 25 electric bus pie, but CTA has consistently shown us they are not fair in their bus assignments.

Now what would be interesting if if they ordered some 30 foot buses again for FG, but this time make them hybrid or electric and let them run the feeders. Maybe a shorter bus could run longer than a bigger bus and routes like the #88 and #81W don't need a 40 foot bus. I think the 30 foot theory is sound, the problem before was the manufacturer really gave them some terrible buses. Now Pace seems to be doing well with it's Eldorko's as a comparison.

[sw4400]

8 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

That's like winning the lotto. The chances are like a million to one. CTA giving something new to FG is like once a 12 year span. It's a real stretch to say they'll get hybrids or electric buses. I personally think we'll see CNG's (Pace) on the NW side before we see anything alternative from CTA. I think it would be fair to give FG a piece of the 25 electric bus pie, but CTA has consistently shown us they are not fair in their bus assignments.

Now what would be interesting if if they ordered some 30 foot buses again for FG, but this time make them hybrid or electric and let them run the feeders. Maybe a shorter bus could run longer than a bigger bus and routes like the #88 and #81W don't need a 40 foot bus. I think the 30 foot theory is sound, the problem before was the manufacturer really gave them some terrible buses. Now Pace seems to be doing well with it's Eldorko's as a comparison.

If they were going to use 30-foot buses, they should've kept the now 9 year old Optimas. A lot say that the frames and shocks were bad, but I rode them on #11 before, and they didn't ride too bad. I believe the CTA just didn't have a use for them anymore, or they could've just procured more if there was an issue like they did with the NABIs(ordering New Flyer articulateds). If they go back to 30' or 35' buses, why not New Flyer and the MIDI? It's a company widely known with the CTA(over 1,300+ buses in the fleet). They must be doing something right at New Flyer to get this much business from us.

[Busjack]

On both prior messages, if CTA had a use for a 30 foot bus, it would not have given up on assigning them on a regular basis on FG routes long before it decided to retire them and sell most downstate. The MIDI seems to have been developed after CTA came to that conclusion.

More extensive interlineing also seems to make using 30 foot buses impractical.

[Busjack]

55 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Now what would be interesting if if they ordered some 30 foot buses again for FG, but this time make them hybrid or electric and let them run the feeders.

I think Pace (through the half hearted Highland Park project) pretty much put cold water on the practicality of a 33 foot hybrid. Maybe Proterra can give someone a deal on a 35 foot bus.

[BusHunter]

12 hours ago, sw4400 said:

If they were going to use 30-foot buses, they should've kept the now 9 year old Optimas. A lot say that the frames and shocks were bad, but I rode them on #11 before, and they didn't ride too bad. I believe the CTA just didn't have a use for them anymore, or they could've just procured more if there was an issue like they did with the NABIs(ordering New Flyer articulateds). If they go back to 30' or 35' buses, why not New Flyer and the MIDI? It's a company widely known with the CTA(over 1,300+ buses in the fleet). They must be doing something right at New Flyer to get this much business from us.

The optima's were probably one of the worst purchases CTA has made, not because they were 30 foot, but because they were crappy designed buses. FG does interline 30 foot routes per se, #81W and #85A and in Evanston and Skokie they got away with Evanston #54A interlines and there was the #68 and #88 interlines. So there were a few interlines. On the south side they used to interline the #62H's with #63W, #55N's and #55A's, but now they interline those with #59. I don't know if #59 could go 30 foot, but again we have #31 coming and we have #43 and #39, so there is a market there for those. Now a Midi hybrid or even a Midi diesel wouldn't be bad. The reason I mention electric before is maybe it would be a good idea to start small and work there way up. I really don't like electric buses if they are for tripper only service. Maybe the 30 footers could possibly run longer. (a lighter bus uses less power/gas theory)  We all know that technology is going to bring the extended range electric buses here eventually, so what's the hurry in buying an inferior electric bus is all I say. Now if an extended range bus was the bus that was ordered, then that works and could possibly be the prototype system for the future.     

[Busjack]

23 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Now if an extended range bus was the bus that was ordered, then that works and could possibly be the prototype system for the future.     

Problem still is that a battery with the same range as 125 gallons of diesel fuel (~400 miles) hasn't been developed yet, and a bus costing twice as much doesn't have a payback if diesel fuel stays at about $2.00/gallon tax free. Hence, you can bet CTA is not going to do this unless the feds give it the $1 million/bus, or the price goes waaaaaaaaaaaaay down. CTA won't even pay the premium of about $175K on an otherwise $500K 40 foot bus, not to mention that the last 67 of the artics, not on a specific hybrid grant, were not hybrids.

[BusHunter]

I don't know they seem to be bending over backwards for 25 electric buses. (Just like Ben's auto sales on Western if you remember the commercial. )