NABIs Pulled from Service

[cta5658]

I saw the row of NABI's at 103rd Garage Today

[trey824]

I saw the row of NABI's at 103rd Garage Today

how are those crappy buses looking?

[cta5658]

how are those crappy buses looking?

still looking the same and i think the NABI were trifling when they were in service

[Guest ctafan630]

But if you look at the post I responded to, the person making it says he hopes the MAN artics are removed from service after seeing this news story. So whether I mention the MAN artic at South Shops or not the overall point is still the same: there are none in service, and haven't been for 4 to 5 years, so he doesn't have to worry on that front. The arctics to be concerned about are currently the NABIs. Maybe he meant NABIs but inadvertently wrote MAN, I don't know. NABIs weren't mentioned in the post.

You just don't get it. I made the original post. If you look at the Denver story, the video shows the MAN artics - suggesting the MAN artics have the problems. The video does not show the NABI buses even though the NABI buses are the ones with a problem. I was fully aware the MAN artics have not been in service for years. The original post was in jest but it seems like you took to seriously.

[jajuan]

You just don't get it. I made the original post. If you look at the Denver story, the video shows the MAN artics - suggesting the MAN artics have the problems. The video does not show the NABI buses even though the NABI buses are the ones with a problem. I was fully aware the MAN artics have not been in service for years. The original post was in jest but it seems like you took to seriously.

Ok fine. Either way, there may be a possible difficulty in checking to see if there was a problem with them at the time. I'm just glad these rattle trap buses (NABIs) are off the road until they can be properly checked out. I'm not really all that concerned about proving a point about a bus that's been long gone from service. I'm more concerned with what's here now that may be verified as junk. They'd have to be if the maintenace work on them takes twice as long for a 6000 if CTA management is taken at its word on that detail.

[ctaboy]

when are the NABI buses are going back into sevice ?

[sw4400]

when are the NABI buses are going back into sevice ?

The CTA doesn't even know if they will yet, ctaboy. The inspectors are still going through them probably very, very, thoroughly. After all 200+ are inspected, they'll make a recommendation to the CTA as to whether to return them to service or take pictures and go to court and sue NABI(which they are doing at this very moment, they have a case pending as does NABI, but unfortunately I cannot find the link to the article that says that).

So, their parking at 103rd, 77th, or wherever the junk fleet is at may be the last you see of them...

[Zol87]

I'm usually not happy to see buses go especially when you ride them frequently, however I'll make an exception for the NABI's due to their performance and safety issues. The rides on the 147 getting on the Drive at Oak St were so bumpy that I knew that something was wrong with the bus. I wonder if this repeated shock contributed to these buses structural and mechanical defects. It made this horrible retching/grinding sound whenever it shook. One time I was on the 147 and this one lady had a baby in a stroller near the accordion section of the bus. It was shaking so bad that I was worried about her infant child because shaking for infants can be deadly. I told her to make sure that her baby was OK because of the shaking. Good Bye NABI's the CTA's Thrill ride. LOL.

[speedracer1407]

I'm usually not happy to see buses go especially when you ride them frequently, however I'll make an exception for the NABI's due to their performance and safety issues. The rides on the 147 getting on the Drive at Oak St were so bumpy that I knew that something was wrong with the bus. I wonder if this repeated shock contributed to these buses structural and mechanical defects. It made this horrible retching/grinding sound whenever it shook. One time I was on the 147 and this one lady had a baby in a stroller near the accordion section of the bus. It was shaking so bad that I was worried about her infant child because shaking for infants can be deadly. I told her to make sure that her baby was OK because of the shaking. Good Bye NABI's the CTA's Thrill ride. LOL.

I'm surprised that the more fragile among us, the very young and old, for example, weren't actually injured on these things. I'm in my late 20s and healthy, and I've had a very mildly sore back from a few rides in which the rear suspension had collapsed, back before LSD had been repaved.

In reply #43 of this thread, I detailed the misery of riding NABIs on the 147 day in and day out.

But if there's only one thing I'll miss about them, it's the drivetrain. There was something satisfying about their uncommonly smooth 4 cylinder DD series 50s and smooth shifting 5 speed transmissions when heavy-footed drivers would floor it from the LSD entrance ramp at foster all the way to the 1000 Michigan exit on rare traffic free mornings (or when I was running really really late to work). The turbo would spool up audibly and the transmission swapped gears quickly (and smoothly) enough to keep it spooled all the way until the speed limiter gently arrested acceleration, I'd guess around 55 MPH. The #1000s have excellent, close ratio 6 speed transmissions, but 6th gear will bring the bus near 70 MPH, as I understand, so the bus never tops out on LSD. And the #4000s are rather dull will their monotonous drone at all speeds.

Make no mistake, though. I will never have any nostalgia for NABIs.

[dann]

I'm surprised that the more fragile among us, the very young and old, for example, weren't actually injured on these things. I'm in my late 20s and healthy, and I've had a very mildly sore back from a few rides in which the rear suspension had collapsed, back before LSD had been repaved.

In reply #43 of this thread, I detailed the misery of riding NABIs on the 147 day in and day out.

But if there's only one thing I'll miss about them, it's the drivetrain. There was something satisfying about their uncommonly smooth 4 cylinder DD series 50s and smooth shifting 5 speed transmissions when heavy-footed drivers would floor it from the LSD entrance ramp at foster all the way to the 1000 Michigan exit on rare traffic free mornings (or when I was running really really late to work). The turbo would spool up audibly and the transmission swapped gears quickly (and smoothly) enough to keep it spooled all the way until the speed limiter gently arrested acceleration, I'd guess around 55 MPH. The #1000s have excellent, close ratio 6 speed transmissions, but 6th gear will bring the bus near 70 MPH, as I understand, so the bus never tops out on LSD. And the #4000s are rather dull will their monotonous drone at all speeds.

Make no mistake, though. I will never have any nostalgia for NABIs.

Regarding the 4000's, being hybrids, you'll expect to hear a monotonous drone, if you hear anything at all. I was in a friend's Prius this weekend and the car's engine was so quiet at street speeds, I was actually able to hold a normal conversation without raising my voice.

[MT0851]

But if there's only one thing I'll miss about them, it's the drivetrain. There was something satisfying about their uncommonly smooth 4 cylinder DD series 50s and smooth shifting 5 speed transmissions when heavy-footed drivers would floor it from the LSD entrance ramp at foster all the way to the 1000 Michigan exit on rare traffic free mornings (or when I was running really really late to work). The turbo would spool up audibly and the transmission swapped gears quickly (and smoothly) enough to keep it spooled all the way until the speed limiter gently arrested acceleration, I'd guess around 55 MPH. The #1000s have excellent, close ratio 6 speed transmissions, but 6th gear will bring the bus near 70 MPH, as I understand, so the bus never tops out on LSD. And the #4000s are rather dull will their monotonous drone at all speeds.

I was always under the impression that they had the ISL, but you can't hear the turbo spool up on the ISL like you can on the S50EGR, so I'll take your word for it. What kind of transmission was coupled to the S50EGR on those things, the ZF 6HP602C ?

[ryanbytes]

I'm surprised that the more fragile among us, the very young and old, for example, weren't actually injured on these things. I'm in my late 20s and healthy, and I've had a very mildly sore back from a few rides in which the rear suspension had collapsed, back before LSD had been repaved.

I have been. In 2007 I had a surgery to remove a big part of a disc in my lower back and the NABIs were not welcome in my life on days that were painful from start to finish. I ended up in the emergency room last year because of the bumps and jumps. After hearing the stories of pissed off drivers and customers I decided it would be better to work my way off the bus before I called an ambulance. I don't even know how the CFD would get me off the bus without the same level of pain even with a stair chair.

In fact I discovered my back problem on an RTS running on Sheridan. We hit a huge bump and when I got up not too long after I couldn't straighten up. Over the course of a couple days it developed into a horrible pain that was diagnosed as a ruptured disc. A couple weeks later the surgeons were doing their thing.

It took a while but I found the righthand seat behind the rear doors on a NABI to be the most comfortable for me. Comfortable is a relative term on them. I try to take the train even if long walks are involved but sometimes there's no choice in the matter, especially with express buses and bad timing. I've taken to leaving for appointments hours early to make sure I can take the route I want.

On Friday I'm having a procedure done that will kill a nerve in my lower back. It's supposed to significantly reduce or stop the pain. If it does I'm going to spend a day crying tears of joy.

I'm 29 feeling like 89 on some days.

[speedracer1407]

Regarding the 4000's, being hybrids, you'll expect to hear a monotonous drone, if you hear anything at all. I was in a friend's Prius this weekend and the car's engine was so quiet at street speeds, I was actually able to hold a normal conversation without raising my voice.

Yes. The 4000s have a continuously variable transmission that keeps the engine revving at exactly the speed it needs to depending on load, so like your friend's Prius, its revs rise and fall so slowly, it's virtually impreceptible.

Unlike the Prius, however, the 4000s are no quieter than anything else in the rear section of the bus. The engine doesn't shut down when not needed like it does in the Prius, and between the VERY loud final drive gear whine and cooling fans that spool up loudly during high-speed brake regeneration, there's quite a racket going on back there.

The prius' quietness is not necessarily due to it's being a hybrid, but rather, a different set of design criteria than a hybrid city bus. 1) Because the Prius starts and stops its engine periodically, the engine (and generator motor/starter) must be quiet and isolated enough that it's not bothersome. As a result, the overall drivetrain operation is VERY quiet indeed, even when the gas engine is running. 2) Whisper quiet operation was likely a deliberate design criteria overall because Toyota needed to demonstrate to buyers a tangible "benefit" to "greener" driving.

[speedracer1407]

I was always under the impression that they had the ISL, but you can't hear the turbo spool up on the ISL like you can on the S50EGR, so I'll take your word for it. What kind of transmission was coupled to the S50EGR on those things, the ZF 6HP602C ?

I'm just going by what i've read on this forum and elsewhere. There's no real authoritative database anywhere that has a list of which engine is in which bus, so all my info is 2nd and 3rd hand. But the engine in the NABIs certainly sounds more like a DD50 than an ISL. The ISL's turbo is indeed hard to hear, but like the ISM in # 1640 and below, you can hear it if you're sitting in just the right place. And it spools up REALLY fast thanks to a variable geometry turbo. Or maybe it's variable vane. Can't remember, but cummins.com will have the answer.

If reading the model number on the ZF 6HP602C is intuitive, then that must be a 6 speed, the same as in the 1000s, right? The NABIs definately have 5 speeds, though first gear has a really odd lurch about half way through. For a while, I thought maybe it was a really horribly calibrated 1st to 2nd shift, but it's pretty clear after spending some time in them that it's just hiccup in the torque converter as it locks up or something.

[santran]

I asked a bus operations manager today if he knew when the NABI's will be back. He said they are going to be out for a long time and may not ever come back. Looks like there days could really be numbered if this hold true.

[RailBus63]

I asked a bus operations manager today if he knew when the NABI's will be back. He said they are going to be out for a long time and may not ever come back. Looks like there days could really be numbered if this hold true.

It that is true, then CTA is likely doing so to support a lawsuit against NABI. I find it hard to believe that every single 60LFW is in such horrible shape that not a single one can be safely operated in passenger service.

[greenstreet]

I asked a bus operations manager today if he knew when the NABI's will be back. He said they are going to be out for a long time and may not ever come back. Looks like there days could really be numbered if this hold true.

Definitely true. Expect an announcement in a matter of days.

.

[ZH1287]

If reading the model number on the ZF 6HP602C is intuitive, then that must be a 6 speed, the same as in the 1000s, right? The NABIs definately have 5 speeds, though first gear has a really odd lurch about half way through. For a while, I thought maybe it was a really horribly calibrated 1st to 2nd shift, but it's pretty clear after spending some time in them that it's just hiccup in the torque converter as it locks up or something.

The NABI's have a ZF Ecomat 2 5HP602C transmissions. (5 speed)

1000-1429 have ZF Ecomat 2+ 6HP592C transmissions. (6 speed)

1430-1929 have ZF Ecomat 4 6HP594C transmissions. (6 speed)

1930-2029 have Allison B400 World transmissions.

[Guest]

It that is true, then CTA is likely doing so to support a lawsuit against NABI. I find it hard to believe that every single 60LFW is in such horrible shape that not a single one can be safely operated in passenger service.

I wonder if this kind of bad press is loud enough where word could get out to other transit agencies. This would be a very bad P.R. for NABI, as if they dont have enough already! that could affect future bus orders and maybe the company's existence. This is not the time for bad press. Imagine permanantly pulling out a 220+ fleet of articulated buses from a major city bus agency after only five years of service. That dosent sound very good!

Too bad this has to happen to the NABIs because I like the design of those artics. I think NABI had a winner with this one. But heres an example of bad engineering, I wont fault the designers. But the engineers who helped in the design should be held accountable. The design was nice, it didnt look too low floor! The only exterior look I didnt like were the headlights. I only remember riding those buses maybe once or twice. The last time I rode it was last summer on the 152 Addison heading to Wrigley Field from the Blue Line. I actually thought it was a nice ride but then again I sat in the front of the bus so I could chat with an operator friend of mine.

[Busjack]

• Bad publicity seems irrelevant, in that NABI has big orders from LA and NJ. For that matter, the bad NYC publicity didn't kill Flxible (at least for another 15 years).
  
• For those who think that the inspections are just to buy a lawsuit, a plaintiff still has to mitigate damages, and you can bet that if it gets to lawsuit time, NABI will have its inspectors, too (who may even be there now).
  

[BusHunter]

• Bad publicity seems irrelevant, in that NABI has big orders from LA and NJ. For that matter, the bad NYC publicity didn't kill Flxible (at least for another 15 years).
  
• For those who think that the inspections are just to buy a lawsuit, a plaintiff still has to mitigate damages, and you can bet that if it gets to lawsuit time, NABI will have its inspectors, too (who may even be there now).
  

Maybe then we can clarify what actually happened on the one with the break. According to CBS news the break occured not when pulling in the bus, but after it was probed on a hoist. Plus the bus in question didn't have it's shocks replaced 43,000 miles after they should have been according to a mechanics log in the story. So there are alot of things to look at in this case.

[Busjack]

Maybe then we can clarify what actually happened on the one with the break. According to CBS news the break occured not when pulling in the bus, but after it was probed on a hoist. Plus the bus in question had it's shocks replaced 40,000 miles after they should have been according to a mechanics log in the story. So there are alot of things to look at in this case.

The mention about bad maintenance and it falling apart on a hoist sure makes it a tougher lawsuit for CTA to prove.

Also, if I remember correctly, Channel 2 was the only one to have the picture, which was previously attributed to "union sources," but here they named the particular "former mechanic."

[speedracer1407]

The NABI's have a ZF Ecomat 2 5HP602C transmissions. (5 speed)

1000-1429 have ZF Ecomat 2+ 6HP592C transmissions. (6 speed)

1430-1929 have ZF Ecomat 4 6HP594C transmissions. (6 speed)

1930-2029 have Allison B400 World transmissions.

I'm surprised that the NABIs have ZF transmissions. They behave and sound completely different from the 6 speeds in the 1000s. I suppose that shouldn't be surprising: different transmission, different year. But big commercial equipment isn't redesigned very often, so I'd be surprised (again) if the 5HP602C doesn't have the same internals (minus one ratio) as the 6 speeds in the 1000s. But I wouldn't know.

Also, why did 1930-2029 switch to the Allison transmission? Did it have something to do with getting a better deal on them because of the 150+ Allison-equipped #4000s? The B400 comes in 5 and 6 speed variants, from what I can tell; which did the CTA order?

[ZH1287]

I'm surprised that the NABIs have ZF transmissions. They behave and sound completely different from the 6 speeds in the 1000s. I suppose that shouldn't be surprising: different transmission, different year. But big commercial equipment isn't redesigned very often, so I'd be surprised (again) if the 5HP602C doesn't have the same internals (minus one ratio) as the 6 speeds in the 1000s. But I wouldn't know.

Also, why did 1930-2029 switch to the Allison transmission? Did it have something to do with getting a better deal on them because of the 150+ Allison-equipped #4000s? The B400 comes in 5 and 6 speed variants, from what I can tell; which did the CTA order?

The transmission in the NABIs have different gear ratios than the transmission in the 1000's. It also uses less advanced technology. It has slightly different internals to handle the higher torque of the DDC S50 330 HP engine.

I think CTA added the 100 Allison B400 buses to the end of the NF order as a trial run. CTA hasn't purchased a bus with an Allison transmission (other than the hybrids) for quite some time.

[rmadisonwi]

I must say, I like those Allisons. I rode my first "1930" if you will (1992) tonight, and that bus sure did move. Plus, the engine/transmission combo sounds much neater than the old ZFs. That, and the gear selector keypad for those Allison transmissions are neat to watch has the bus shifts between gears.