New Eldorados?

[Busjack]

Some bid site indicated that there were addenda to the current RFP, which showed that some company with no grammar wanted to demonstrate its bus, so Pace has a form agreement for anyone to do so, and that the pre-bid meeting showed a lot of interest, especially from Nova Bus, but also New Flyer, Arboc (New Flyer), and Alexander Dennis. (No Gillig, although attendance was not necessary,)

It says there will be an additional addendum to cover other questions. However, I wonder if Arboc and AD can meet a spec that basically says that the 30 and 40 foot buses are on the same spec, except for dimensions and doors.

[John7]

6379 now at R

Currently on 606

[John7]

18502 on 349

So looks like its not a highway bus

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, John7 said:

18502 on 349

So looks like its not a highway bus

Not necessarily, as they may be testing a bus on a short route.

Are you standing at the corner of Western and 143rd?

[rotjohns]

13 hours ago, Busjack said:

Not necessarily, as they may be testing a bus on a short route.

Are you standing at the corner of Western and 143rd?

That's what I was figuring also, they are probably looking at these buses for shorter routes before sending them on the 877/888/890 and maybe the Amazon routes.  I would think at least one bus per day would be out as tests before they all come out.  

[John7]

21 hours ago, Busjack said:

Not necessarily, as they may be testing a bus on a short route.

Shouldn't it have ran on either route 350 or 366 since those routes are short operated by south? Im planning to look for the 18500 bus when its in operation

[Busjack]

14 hours ago, John7 said:

Shouldn't it have ran on either route 350 or 366 since those routes are short operated by south? Im planning to look for the 18500 bus when its in operation

Why not call the dispatcher at South (not that he is going to tell you).

As I indicated, the only way is to be on the street, preferably with a camera.

[John7]

18508 on 361

[artthouwill]

On 6/14/2018 at 5:44 PM, John7 said:

Shouldn't it have ran on either route 350 or 366 since those routes are short operated by south? Im planning to look for the 18500 bus when its in operation

I believe the 350 interline with the much longer 364.

[Busjack]

9 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I believe the 350 interline with the much longer 364.

It did at one time, but not recently.

[John7]

Ill be confirming whether or not its a highway bus or not real soon

*edit* looks like 877/888 won't be running any highway eldorado buses anymore. The 18500 buses are exactly the same as the 15500 and 17500 buses

[Busjack]

See my prior comment. Webwatch does NOT indicate what kind of bus  it is. Since you post the same thing  multiple times, I'll ask again: do you have a photo?

[John7]

29 minutes ago, Busjack said:

See my prior comment. Webwatch does NOT indicate what kind of bus  it is. Since you post the same thing  multiple times, I'll ask again: do you have a photo?

 

[Busjack]

O.K.

[Erin Mishkin Jr.]

18509 in service on 358.

[Busjack]

17 minutes ago, Erin Mishkin Jr. said:

18509 in service on 358.

I can jump on you for the same thing you jumped on @BusHunter. It's been out, and I noted that pretty much all the 18500s are out.

[BusHunter]

So what there's just 20? 

[Busjack]

13 hours ago, BusHunter said:

So what there's just 20? 

Ambiguous question, to which the only answer is that @andrethebusman posted an FOIA response, and nothing not reflected on it has been reported seen.

[Busjack]

I just went by South Holland and 18503 and 18504 are still there, which may explain why not everything you folks expect has happened yet.

 

...and yes, I did satisfy myself that they are transits.

[Busjack]

The Q&A for the procurement is out. Nova, NF, ENC, and Alexander Dennis submitted. NF seems to have a lot of show stoppers dealing with such things as manufacturers' warranties, and AD offered the Enviro 200, but Pace said it no longer takes 96" buses. ENC was mostly clarifications whether Pace would take as in the last build, but often Pace said that it would not. Also, ENC wanted hydraulic steering instead of electric, which Pace approved.

The bottom line is that Pace is not changing its operating methods, including on such things as rear signs (Nova thought that only meant a route sign).

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

The Q&A for the procurement is out. Nova, NF, ENC, and Alexander Dennis submitted. NF seems to have a lot of show stoppers dealing with such things as manufacturers' warranties, and AD offered the Enviro 200, but Pace said it no longer takes 96" buses. ENC was mostly clarifications whether Pace would take as in the last build, but often Pace said that it would not. Also, ENC wanted hydraulic steering instead of electric, which Pace approved.

The bottom line is that Pace is not changing its operating methods, including on such things as rear signs (Nova thought that only meant a route sign).

I think ENC is the early favorite.  Unless one of the others really undercuts price,  Pace could go all in onENC.

[Busjack]

17 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I think ENC is the early favorite.  Unless one of the others really undercuts price,  Pace could go all in onENC.

I'm trying to go through the Q&A more slowly to determine the show stoppers. Nova had what I think are minor denials, such as that there must be 4 amber lights on the rear while they only provide 2, and Nova was denied cantilever seats instead of seats with one pedestal.

 

New Flyer got denials on Odyssey batteries (including warranty) when Pace wants NorthStar, not providing TPMS, and plywood flooring instead of composite. I think the latter shoots them down, because the response was adamant that Pace doesn't want plywood because it has delaminated on other buses it has, but Pace has had no problem with composites on 440 buses in the last 6 years. NF also struck out on its request for its patented hydraulic ADA ramp, Pace saying it wants electric.

 

AD strikes out on multiple levels, not only on the 96" issue, but such other things as top speed and fuel range, since Pace serves a vast territory.Pace also would not accept pneumatic doors as opposed to the specified electric ones. The 96" issue also required that AD supply a different kind of wheelchair restraint on the right side, which Pace rejected.Pace also added to the specs that the exterior has to resist the highly corrosive road salt, and an aluminum exterior does not. There are numerous other denials indicating that since AD intends to bid a standard Enviro 200, that's a no go.

I think that Nova has an outside shot on the 40 foot buses, since most of its features were approved, and a couple more amber lights can't be that big of a deal.

Also note that, as expected, no Q&A from Gillig. While not a prerequisite to bidding, it has refused to bid before, so I don't expect anything different this time.

While the bidding has to run its course, it sure looks like ENC, especially on the 30 foot side.

Finally, someone got a direct answer on this:

[Busjack]

Maybe finishing this off, the following is a list of the upgrades in this specification over ENC's last build, according to the Q&A:

• ·         Aluminum wheels instead of powder coated steel
• ·         Air tanks stainless instead of powder coated steel--powder coated failed in the past
• ·         Flush windows, not the framed passenger windows
• ·         Anti-slip paint on roof
• ·         Curb feeler
• ·         Cornering lights
• ·         All headlights LED, instead of present halogen high beams
• ·         Pulse destination signs use a different programming tool than the others--Pace didn't seem to give a straight answer, but it appears to me that the specs are for Pulse type signs.

Finally, an observation: Pace has certainly gone from the days [about 20 years ago] that it said it got [the Orion VIs] because they were $10K/bus less than the prior order [2401 series NABIs]. Also, if there are Standard Procurement Guidelines, it is only in format, not the details of the buses, which means (as indicated by that the Enviro 200 isn't compliant), an off the shelf bus is no longer acceptable.

[artthouwill]

On 7/24/2018 at 10:13 PM, Busjack said:

I'm trying to go through the Q&A more slowly to determine the show stoppers. Nova had what I think are minor denials, such as that there must be 4 amber lights on the rear while they only provide 2, and Nova was denied cantilever seats instead of seats with one pedestal.

 

New Flyer got denials on Odyssey batteries (including warranty) when Pace wants NorthStar, not providing TPMS, and plywood flooring instead of composite. I think the latter shoots them down, because the response was adamant that Pace doesn't want plywood because it has delaminated on other buses it has, but Pace has had no problem with composites on 440 buses in the last 6 years. NF also struck out on its request for its patented hydraulic ADA ramp, Pace saying it wants electric.

 

AD strikes out on multiple levels, not only on the 96" issue, but such other things as top speed and fuel range, since Pace serves a vast territory.Pace also would not accept pneumatic doors as opposed to the specified electric ones. The 96" issue also required that AD supply a different kind of wheelchair restraint on the right side, which Pace rejected.Pace also added to the specs that the exterior has to resist the highly corrosive road salt, and an aluminum exterior does not. There are numerous other denials indicating that since AD intends to bid a standard Enviro 200, that's a no go.

I think that Nova has an outside shot on the 40 foot buses, since most of its features were approved, and a couple more amber lights can't be that big of a deal.

Also note that, as expected, no Q&A from Gillig. While not a prerequisite to bidding, it has refused to bid before, so I don't expect anything different this time.

While the bidding has to run its course, it sure looks like ENC, especially on the 30 foot side.

Finally, someone got a direct answer on this:

If Nova were to get this contract, a longshot, it would be the first time in a while that Pace and CTA would have some buses with the same manufacturer.  One would think there could be some benefit in a joint bid, but the agencies' specs are so different that it's not probable.

[Busjack]

11 hours ago, artthouwill said:

If Nova were to get this contract, a longshot, it would be the first time in a while that Pace and CTA would have some buses with the same manufacturer.  One would think there could be some benefit in a joint bid, but the agencies' specs are so different that it's not probable.

Last sentence is correct. Besides that, the Nova questions indicated that it didn't understand how Pace does business;  i.e. Pace requests a price for each of five years, and Nova asked if it could bid (in the manner of CTA contracts) one price plus an index for inflation, and the Pace answer was "you can bid the same price for five years, but you have to bid all five years." Obviously, as Cool Hand Luke would say, a failure to communicate Maybe Nova should get more U.S. based sales representatives (one can tell from its diction in both the Pace and CTA requests, they weren't written by a native Midwesterner).

New Flyer, besides being more obstinate on the technical specs,didn't like the standard Pace contract term on "no funds, no obligation, except for work in progress," insisting on termination payments, which was denied. Maybe it got too burned on the NJT MCI contract.

About the only times I recall the RTA and CTA running the same equipment was GMC 5307s and 4523s, and, of course, when CTA bought Pace junk.