Bus Accidents

[mikeymc77]

We have 7 garages, I'm not as knowledgeable to some of the facts cuz I dont work for the CTA, but I wonder if there are any statistics showing bus accidents per garage that would make the obvious more obvious. That the percentage of accidents is highest at these garages. (Chicago and Kedzie)

And its not just recently, if you go back through the old posts regarding accidents I found many more incidents on the West Side than anywhere else in the city

[Guest]

We have 7 garages, I'm not as knowledgeable to some of the facts cuz I dont work for the CTA, but I wonder if there are any statistics showing bus accidents per garage that would make the obvious more obvious. That the percentage of accidents is highest at these garages. (Chicago and Kedzie)

And its not just recently, if you go back through the old posts regarding accidents I found many more incidents on the West Side than anywhere else in the city

I remember back when I worked at CTA they did have statistics data of percentage of accidents by garage that they would post. The highest accident rates were at Kedzie, 77th, Chicago ave., Forest Glen ranked in the bottom three garages which was great pride for us, our accident rate was way down.

[artthouwill]

I was going to stay out of this thread, but with all of the bickering, I was compelled to jump into this fray.

I did drive a bus, though not for CTA. I did notice a lot of drivers became 'aggressive" around buses, usually because they did not want to be caught behind the bus. Just using the turn signal seems to speed up traffic behind you. Though I don't condone reckless driving, sometimes you have to use the size of your bus to your advantage to merge into traffic.

I don't know what to make of jajuan's post. While there are a lot of hard working law abiding citizens on the West Side, there are plenty of not so law abiding citizens also. I lived for a period on the West Side and I have lived mostly on the South Side (and there is no shortage of lawlessness there either), even if the majority of people ARE law abiding citizens. And you were responding to a racial comment, but unfortunately, those are areas with high crime rates, etc. Be honest about it and it can't be denied. It is not everybody but it is more than enough.

As far as K and C having higher accident rates, it isn't because they are located on the West Side, it could be because those garages operate more routes with very heavy traffic density. K has a lot of downtown routes and C operates through a lot of dense areas as well. F tends to have the most experienced drivers while C may have some less experienced drivers. There are too many factors involved besides crime rates that would make K and C more prone to accidents, for accidents can happen anywhere at anytime.

The public depends on transit to get to and from and the public wants some sort of consistency. Some routes have too much slack in the schedule which causes drivers to drive much slower and sometimes even stop. That causes passengers to think the driver is loafing. Some routes have no slack in them, thus the driver will always be late, and missed connections cause customers to be late, even when leaving earlier. The result? More cars on the road which creates more traffic and slows down buses even more.

This thread pretty much is speaking of CTA, but I have seen my share of silliness in the burbs too, so called high crime areas as well as low crime areas, and none of the Pace garages are located in "high crime" areas where thugs and lawbreakers abide.

There is a difference between fault and preventable. Fault is generally who caused the accident. Preventable (which is what transporation and their insurance companies use) is did the driver take any or all possible measures to prevent the accident from happening, even if the other driver was at fault. For esample:

A. The bus is sitting at a stoplight. His traffic signal turns green and he proceeds across the intersection only to get broadsided by a car that ran his red light. Clearly the other drivers fault, but did the bus driver check as he was going into the intersection. This is a case where, depending on the intersection, he could be charged with a "preventable" accident. Truth is, most accidents that bus drivers have will be charged to them.

[Busjack]

There is a difference between fault and preventable. Fault is generally who caused the accident. Preventable (which is what transporation and their insurance companies use) is did the driver take any or all possible measures to prevent the accident from happening, even if the other driver was at fault. For esample:

A. The bus is sitting at a stoplight. His traffic signal turns green and he proceeds across the intersection only to get broadsided by a car that ran his red light. Clearly the other drivers fault, but did the bus driver check as he was going into the intersection. This is a case where, depending on the intersection, he could be charged with a "preventable" accident. Truth is, most accidents that bus drivers have will be charged to them.

The last one is a good point. In effect, if someone made the "million mile club," does that mean that they had no preventable accidents as defined above?

[jajuan]

Art very valid points and I'm not denying there are a large number of knuckleheads in the areas Kedzie and Chicago serve. My point was that like you pointed out, there are car drivers anywhere within the city who automatically will drive more aggressively around a bus from as little as the bus turn signal coming on. Despite the knuckleheads out there, whether it's a handful or a large number, I ride the the routes in question with fairly little incident. As for being honest about what I may have been responding to, we all know that the West Side is composed of mostly minority communities so what would be the point of downgrading things into an argument about race? I'm just saying you can't paint a whole section of the city with such nonsense as putting rollcages on buses just because they happen to operate in that area. I don't need to bring up race to make that point just because the comment may or may not have been racial. Race often times is too easy an argument to fall upon and in those cases only serve to make a point given less effective.

On Busjack's point of the new equipment's tending to be hit more, I can see that. Of course keep in mind that so much of the equipment is new equipment. That fact is more true now this year than when the TMCs and the Flx 5300s were on the way out. On that note, also keep in mind that you had garages with more old equipment to replace, so you would still run into times where it seemed like the new equipment was getting smacked more.

[sw4400]

I really don't want to enter into this topic, because of the volatility going on recently, but I'll add my two Lincoln's worth:

IMO, accidents can be just as much a Bus Operators fault as motorists. Case in point(though it didn't involve a motor vehicle) I was crossing Lincoln on my green walk light, and the NB #11 bus went through the red light and almost ran me down(this was mentioned in another topic and some time ago).

So, it's a double edged sword about bus accidents, 50% are driver error, 50% are bus operator error.

[mikeymc77]

I dont believe that its a 50/50 split. There are CTA drivers on here so they can tell us the amount of training that goes along with being a bus operator. Like someone stated earlier, people dont respect the bus and its because of this erratic behavior of drivers around the bus that we get the accidents. As the FG operator pointed out, he was proud of the fact that the FG operators had the best driving record. Does that mean that FG operators are better or have better training? I would think that the training is the same for all garages. So thats why I believe my statement that its the careless people driving the cars in the C and K areas that is the problem

[dann]

As the FG operator pointed out, he was proud of the fact that the FG operators had the best driving record. Does that mean that FG operators are better or have better training? I would think that the training is the same for all garages. So thats why I believe my statement that its the careless people driving the cars in the C and K areas that is the problem

All operators should have the same amount and quality of training, regardless of which garage he/she is based from. Accidents can happen ANYWHERE; it's mere coincidence that most of them happen along C or K routes. By the way, does the CTA disclose to the public a list of accidents involving its buses?

[rmadisonwi]

Even if every operator were trained exactly the same, one thing that a couple of posters tried to explain (which apparently went way over many of your heads) is that experience adds a lot to the quality of the operator.

Forest Glen has a bunch of operators that have been driving since the invention of the wheel, while other garages may have more operators that were hired only recently ("recently" being a relative term, given that nobody has really been hired in a few months).

The other unsurprising mistake that some of you are making is the assumption that everything CTA related gets posted to this board.

The number of CTA bus accidents that make the news is so small that you really cannot draw any statistical conclusions.

[trainman8119]

The last one is a good point. In effect, if someone made the "million mile club," does that mean that they had no preventable accidents as defined above?

In Pace terms, a "Million Miler" is an operator who has operated over a million miles without a PREVENTABLE accident. For example, any driver who rear ends another vehicle will automatically be charged with a preventable accident, since he/she should have enough clearance of the vehicle ahead. In fact, most often any accident in which the front of the bus is involved will probably be graded as preventable, since you, in theory, should be in prevention mode. Also note, the preventable accident does not apply to only collisions on the street, but also includes incidents on the bus. An example, if a passenger falls while on the bus, it is possible that you could be charged with a preventable as you may have not operating the vehicle in a manner which the passenger would not have fallen. So when you see the Million Milers, it is a pretty impressive feat considering all of the factors that are involved.

The Pace garage in Markham isn't in the finest of areas, and the locations the routes from that garage frequent are far from safe/happy go lucky areas (can you say Harvey or Riverdale ??).

As for buses from one CTA garage having more accidents than others, I would think the experience factor would come into play, but really now, with only 1 route headed downtown from FG as opposed to NP or K the traffic volume on the streets those routes cover are more than likely to have more incidents, simply because the chances are greater because the number of vehicles from those garages is much higher and thus more likely to be involved in an incident. I would be willing to bet that if you took the miles to accident ratio, there wouldn't be too much difference in one garage vs another.

[Busjack]

... In fact, most often any accident in which the front of the bus is involved will probably be graded as preventable, since you, in theory, should be in prevention mode. ...

Even in the case at the top of the topic where the automobile driver was heading for the bus?

I suppose, though, that in that case and the case where the bus hit the school on Chicago Ave., one could argue that the evasive measures were themselves preventable.

[Guest]

At the firehouse today, we responded to a "Bus Accident" Roosevelt/Central Park. When we arrived we found New Flyer bus #801 on #12 Roosevelt WB rear ended by an SUV. No serious damage to the bus but the SUV was totalled. We had 8 people transported to hospitals.

[rotjohns]

At the firehouse today, we responded to a "Bus Accident" Roosevelt/Central Park. When we arrived we found New Flyer bus #801 on #12 Roosevelt WB rear ended by an SUV. No serious damage to the bus but the SUV was totalled. We had 8 people transported to hospitals.

That bus will be back out on the road in a few weeks if not sooner if the damage is minimal.

[mikeymc77]

Gee ???? Isn't Roosevelt and Central Park considered "West Side" ???

[BusExpert32]

Gee ???? Isn't Roosevelt and Central Park considered "West Side" ???

We get it. The west side has dangerous neighborhoods with high crime rates, but the CTA has to run service there, and everything that comes with it- repairing buses, washing graffiti off buses, etc.

[ratatatmatt]

Seen this on the late news. The bus didnt look to be too badly damaged. But my question is: Will the bus be fixed at the garage it is assigned or somewhere else?

[Busjack]

Seen this on the late news. The bus didnt look to be too badly damaged. But my question is: Will the bus be fixed at the garage it is assigned or somewhere else?

Body work usually is done at South Shops. However, CTA could contract it out offsite. Of course, I don't have any inside info about the particular bus.

[Guest]

Seen this on the late news. The bus didnt look to be too badly damaged. But my question is: Will the bus be fixed at the garage it is assigned or somewhere else?

Theres a diesel repair shop at 33rd/Pulaski where CTA and Pace buses are constantly being repaired there.

[Busjack]

Theres a diesel repair shop at 33rd/Pulaski where CTA and Pace buses are constantly being repaired there.

For the others, that's Bus and Truck Chicago. That's one of the private contractors to which I referred. Someone had posted pictures from there a couple of years ago, and their site has pictures of CTA and Pace buses. Another possible one is Inland Detroit Diesel in Carol Stream.

[Guest]

For the others, that's Bus and Truck Chicago. That's one of the private contractors to which I referred. Someone had posted pictures from there a couple of years ago, and their site has pictures of CTA and Pace buses. Another possible one is Inland Detroit Diesel in Carol Stream.

Inland is where we take our buses to.

[ratatatmatt]

I used to see many CTA and PACE buses at the place in Carol Stream, One thing I couldnt figure out though was when the CTA was retiring the 4400s and 5300s, there were a few out there for repairs. Wouldnt they have been better off money wise sending the broke buses to the scrapyard rather than some buses that were still capable of running? I distinctly remember bus #5316 being there when there were only maybe 20 Flxibles left in revenue service back in 2008

[mikeymc77]

There were even a couple of NABIs out there even after they were pulled out of service. I wish I would of remembered the numbers to see if they were driven off from there to 77th

[jajuan]

We get it. The west side has dangerous neighborhoods with high crime rates, but the CTA has to run service there, and everything that comes with it- repairing buses, washing graffiti off buses, etc.

Thank you and some people can't seem to let it go. Careless driving happens anywhere in the city. Just look at the large number of cab drivers who drive like idiots downtown trying to beat a bus to who they think could be a prospective fare. Can I say cabbies as a whole are more dangerous than the rest of the drivers on the road? No. I can only say there are a lot of cabbies who are potentially dangerous based on their observed actions. The point being, drivers have to be diligent, attentive drivers ANYWHERE they go in the city or elsewhere.

[mikeymc77]

The defender of the WEST SIDE has spoken

[jajuan]

If you want to go about continuing with immature antics, by all means be my guest. I've got much better things to do with my energy and time.