West Division - Changes & Restructuring

[artthouwill]

BusHunter already suggested calling that trip a 318, to which I said even calling it 308 makes more sense than 305 (which it is now and will continue to be). To clarify my reference to 308, the 305 trip in question is intended to connect to 308. Therefore, I suggested a footnote on the 308 schedule saying that trip starts at the green line instead of the blue. Basically, I was saying that either of our suggestions would seem more logical than what Pace came up with (calling it 305).

I'm not sure what you are getting at with your mention of deadheads and other routes. We are referring to the 305 trip on Sunday morning that runs from Harlem/Lake to Forest Park. No other buses are at Forest Park at 6AM on Sunday.

I actually was referring to the weekday trips which the Sunday trip mimics.  Obviously the Sunday trip in question mimics what happens during the week, which is why it is the way it is.  Of course we agree this makes no sense to sign it 305 once that portion of the route is done away with ( since that will be done away with daily).  Yet I don't agree that calling it 308 in that section is better than 305 since neither route will ever serve the Green Line save that one trip.  I only mentioned the weekday trips to show the inclination Pace has with deadheading via Lake to Harlem and starting the 305 (and 757) at that point currently. 

[BusHunter]

If you want to get technical, maybe it should be a 318.

First, 308 makes no sense in that the 308 goes nowhere near the Green Line so having a time point there is meaningless.

Currently, this is signed 305 (though you could sign it 318 since both routes run via Harlem, Madison, and Desplaines.  I believe the preferred deadhead route from Melrose Park (garage) to/(from) Forest Park Terminal is via Lake, Harlem, Madison, and Desplaines (although some buses do deadhead from FP via I-290 and Manheim to Lake).  The 308, 318, and 757 have peak a.m service FROM Forest Park Terminal (with 301 having bidirectional peak service).  

At that time, the 305 comes, then the next bus is a 307, then the 757 comes and originates on Circle (though its deadhead route also follows the deadhead of the 305).  Northbound there is a bus that deadheads from the garage heading North on Harlem then becomes a 307 upon reaching South Blvd followed by a 318. 

After the first 305 passes, Harlem Yard starts pulling six car trains out of the yard.

Someone has to have goofed in the schedule dept. That route being a #305 makes no sense, but what I wonder is why would you need a feeder off the green line if the green line's not running yet?

[artthouwill]

Someone has to have goofed in the schedule dept. That route being a #305 makes no sense, but what I wonder is why would you need a feeder off the green line if the green line's not running yet?

Great question to which I have no good answer.  Maybe someone in Oak Park or Forest Park complained they couldn't get to work on Sunday morning at Loyola/Hines so this little interline does the trick for 1 or 2 people.

[Pace831]

I actually was referring to the weekday trips which the Sunday trip mimics.  Obviously the Sunday trip in question mimics what happens during the week, which is why it is the way it is.  Of course we agree this makes no sense to sign it 305 once that portion of the route is done away with ( since that will be done away with daily).  Yet I don't agree that calling it 308 in that section is better than 305 since neither route will ever serve the Green Line save that one trip.  I only mentioned the weekday trips to show the inclination Pace has with deadheading via Lake to Harlem and starting the 305 (and 757) at that point currently. 

I think I see your point now regarding the deadheading. The bus will  be deadheading via Harlem, Madison, Desplaines anyway, so they might as well run it in service.

The first Green Line trip arrives Harlem/Lake at 5:45 on Sunday, so there is just enough time to make the connection if the train is on time.

Most importantly: The schedule preview for 305 no longer has the trip we've been discussing. Maybe I'm going crazy but I swear I saw it there before, since it's the whole basis of this discussion.

http://pacebus.com/pdf/preview/305back.pdf

 

[artthouwill]

I think I see your point now regarding the deadheading. The bus will  be deadheading via Harlem, Madison, Desplaines anyway, so they might as well run it in service.

The first Green Line trip arrives Harlem/Lake at 5:45 on Sunday, so there is just enough time to make the connection if the train is on time.

Most importantly: The schedule preview for 305 no longer has the trip we've been discussing. Maybe I'm going crazy but I swear I saw it there before, since it's the whole basis of this discussion.

http://pacebus.com/pdf/preview/305back.pdf

 

Either you were looking at the old schedule or someone caught it and edited it.

[Busjack]

I think I see your point now regarding the deadheading. The bus will  be deadheading via Harlem, Madison, Desplaines anyway, so they might as well run it in service.

The first Green Line trip arrives Harlem/Lake at 5:45 on Sunday, so there is just enough time to make the connection if the train is on time.

Most importantly: The schedule preview for 305 no longer has the trip we've been discussing. Maybe I'm going crazy but I swear I saw it there before, since it's the whole basis of this discussion.

http://pacebus.com/pdf/preview/305back.pdf

 

I don't think it is deadheading, but yes the trip is gone.

Don't know if someone at Pace read chitrasit.org or the proofreaders finally got to it.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Busjack

[garmon757]

Well, it looks like all west routes destination signs will not flip i.e. "318 NORTH AVE" flips to "318 WOLF/NORTH". Now, it's only one sign (actual destination) i.e. "303 FRST PK CTA". It will not show the name of the route in which I find that very controversial.

[Busjack]

11 hours ago, garmon757 said:

Well, it looks like all west routes destination signs will not flip i.e. "318 NORTH AVE" flips to "318 WOLF/NORTH". Now, it's only one sign (actual destination) i.e. "303 FRST PK CTA". It will not show the name of the route in which I find that very controversial.

That's the pattern used in NW, NS, and mostly at SW.

However, from 303 it is too early to tell a pattern, since the route name is  303 Forest Park - Rosemont, (destinations only) not something like 303 Madison 25th.Maybe you'll  have to wait until tomorrow to see if buses with distinctive street names (such as E. Roosevelt, Laramie, Austin, Ridgeland) show a street name.

I found it a bit incongruous that 301 has signs

301 Roosevelt

301 Roosevelt/

301 Ardmore.

Only thing analogous in NW is

221 Wolf Rd

221 Wolf/Piper

[qwantae]

Restoring Sunday Service on the 330 is the best ever for this West Restructuring Change, others like 305 and 316 is the ugliest change ever heard.  They should've left 305 the way it was,  now the Concordia / Dominican University students would have to walk to Harlem for 90/ 318.  

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, qwantae said:

They should've left 305 the way it was,  now the Concordia / Dominican University students would have to walk to Harlem for 90/ 318.  

From what was indicated above, that portion was going to be cut in any event due to low ridership. The only real issue is whether designating 305 and 316 separately is of any real consequence.

[west towns]

Anyone know what the north Avenue  corridor study is?

[Busjack]

You could have Googled it. http://northavenuecorridorstudy.com/

[garmon757]

Last two posts moved to this topic.

[Busjack]

Moving Forward also mentions the North Ave. Corridor Study, including a open house May 3 in Melrose Park. Misspelled the link, though (the correct one is above).

[PNW7380]

Public hearing on route 319. See attached link.

 

http://www.pacebus.com/sub/schedules/route_notice_detail.asp?Notice_ID=5643

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, PNW7380 said:

Public hearing on route 319. See attached link.

 

http://www.pacebus.com/sub/schedules/route_notice_detail.asp?Notice_ID=5643

Pace sure hasn't said in a concrete manner what changes are to be made.

[jesi2282]

I can see the Franklin/Rose trips being discontinued, nobody really gets on or off on that segment, and they are really inconvenient for those who need to get on or off on Grand between 25th and Mannheim. The Bensenville trips get light loads, my guess is they stay, I can also see them cutting the east end back to Grand/Nordica and have all trips end there.

[BusHunter]

18 minutes ago, jesi2282 said:

I can see the Franklin/Rose trips being discontinued, nobody really gets on or off on that segment, and they are really inconvenient for those who need to get on or off on Grand between 25th and Mannheim. The Bensenville trips get light loads, my guess is they stay, I can also see them cutting the east end back to Grand/Nordica and have all trips end there.

From my experience, it seems the ridership is weak along Wolf and Grand once you get past Mannheim. I think cause they are starting to get away from the apartments and the riders who ride transit, plus it seems #318 is serving Walmart just as well and seems more direct.

I agree the #319 should terminate at Grand/Nordica as it seems unnecessary to go to the brickyard area. That was once a regional destination with the mall and all but it's changed and it doesn't seem to draw so heavy especially from the West. Didn't #319 once go to JC Penney's?  Non direct service to that area probably doesn't help #319 either.

I was surprised myself to see the Bensenville runs does pretty good. There's lots of factories and warehouses that the #319 serves along Franklin, so I actually think that's one of it's better service areas.

I would try to capture the best of both worlds and possibly make a rush hour loop that serves in the PM WB grand and EB Franklin and opposite in the AM. Maybe make the turn on the west end at Wolf or Mannheim. I don't really see Bensenville Metra doing so good with ridership so I would put that on the table of do we keep this or not?  I don't know what they do in the non rush. Maybe just keep it the same minus the trips to Narragansett.

[Busjack]

My general impression is that the route is too complicated, and the Belmont trips should be given a different route number (such as Madison being 303/310/317 or Lake being 310/313, even though each has a coordinated schedule east of 19th). I also don't know why they didn't deal with this with the rest of the West Division restructuring.

7 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I agree the #319 should terminate at Grand/Nordica as it seems unnecessary to go to the brickyard area. That was once a regional destination with the mall and all but it's changed and it doesn't seem to draw so heavy especially from the West.

Especially after they demolished the mall. Nobody is going to take the bus to hike up the hill to Lowe's.

7 hours ago, jesi2282 said:

I can see the Franklin/Rose trips being discontinued, nobody really gets on or off on that segment

Aside from the via Grand or Belmont issue, the the trips only from Mannheim to Rose (6:18 am, 1:40 pm) seem pullouts from the garage for an undefined reason. Jesi, do you have any idea? Some industrial trip? Interline with 303? Otherwise, there is again the confusing situation that some Grand trips go via Belmont to the Franklin Park station and others don't.

[Pace831]

7 hours ago, BusHunter said:

From my experience, it seems the ridership is weak along Wolf and Grand once you get past Mannheim. I think cause they are starting to get away from the apartments and the riders who ride transit, plus it seems #318 is serving Walmart just as well and seems more direct.

I agree the #319 should terminate at Grand/Nordica as it seems unnecessary to go to the brickyard area. That was once a regional destination with the mall and all but it's changed and it doesn't seem to draw so heavy especially from the West. Didn't #319 once go to JC Penney's?  Non direct service to that area probably doesn't help #319 either.

I was surprised myself to see the Bensenville runs does pretty good. There's lots of factories and warehouses that the #319 serves along Franklin, so I actually think that's one of it's better service areas.

I would try to capture the best of both worlds and possibly make a rush hour loop that serves in the PM WB grand and EB Franklin and opposite in the AM. Maybe make the turn on the west end at Wolf or Mannheim. I don't really see Bensenville Metra doing so good with ridership so I would put that on the table of do we keep this or not?  I don't know what they do in the non rush. Maybe just keep it the same minus the trips to Narragansett.

As it is now, the Bensenville trips should have a different route number since they don't match the main route closely enough, plus it's supposed to be the Grand Ave bus, not Franklin Ave. If they go with your idea of the Grand-Wolf-Franklin loop they could justify keeping the same route number though. I would have all the trips that don't go to Bensenville make the loop, not just in the rush hour. On the other end, no question they should cut it back to Grand/Nordica.

Now my questions are:

1. Are there 318/319 interlines at Walmart? It looks like there are from the schedule. If so, having 319 terminate somewhere else would require schedule adjustments on 318.

2. Do some trips only go down Belmont to serve the Metra stations? How many people actually get on/off in that segment? If not many, I'd just have those trips go down Grand.

[Busjack]

18 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

Do some trips only go down Belmont to serve the Metra stations? How many people actually get on/off in that segment? If not many, I'd just have those trips go down Grand.

The additional issue there is if there is anything else in that business district?

[Pace831]

2 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The additional issue there is if there is anything else in that business district?

I don't think the manufacturing district there attracts many bus riders, and the route through there isn't acting as a Metra feeder either. If I'm wrong and there is decent ridership in that area, they should at least go down River Road instead of Cumberland. Nobody is going to the cemetery/forest preserve and it would keep the Grand Ave portion more intact.

The more I look at it, I predict that the proposal will be basically split the Bensenville and Grand Ave trips into 2 routes but keep the routing the way it is, but eliminate the Mannheim-Belmont-25th trips.

[Busjack]

16 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

I don't think the manufacturing district there attracts many bus riders, and the route through there isn't acting as a Metra feeder either. If I'm wrong and there is decent ridership in that area, they should at least go down River Road instead of Cumberland. Nobody is going to the cemetery/forest preserve and it would keep the Grand Ave portion more intact.

The more I look at it, I predict that the proposal will be basically split the Bensenville and Grand Ave trips into 2 routes but keep the routing the way it is, but eliminate the Mannheim-Belmont-25th trips.

We agree on the last point (to the extent of splitting the 2 routes).

The issue I was trying to raise is that there are some midday and Saturday trips that start at Wolf/North that go to Franklin/Rose via Mannheim and Belmont, and then back via Grand (or the reverse); essentially those with the B and C legends.

 

[BusHunter]

25 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

I don't think the manufacturing district there attracts many bus riders, and the route through there isn't acting as a Metra feeder either. If I'm wrong and there is decent ridership in that area, they should at least go down River Road instead of Cumberland. Nobody is going to the cemetery/forest preserve and it would keep the Grand Ave portion more intact.

The more I look at it, I predict that the proposal will be basically split the Bensenville and Grand Ave trips into 2 routes but keep the routing the way it is, but eliminate the Mannheim-Belmont-25th trips.

Yeah, going down River Rd does make more sense for the Metra feeder portion. Maybe all Belmont/franklin/25th trips could loop on the west end but would come back to grand sb on Mannheim to go east instead of west. I don't really see the Belmont/Mannheim trips doing all that well. Maybe just around 25th/Franklin. I suppose they could loop those with Mannheim being it's west end or possibly Wolf. Doing that they could actually have east and west service on Grand in all areas east of Mannheim.  In the rush Belmont/Franklin to Mannheim could also have service both ways. Regardless though it would be complicated. 

If we go on what Pace did in the West restructuring though Franklin would probably get it's own bus but I don't know if it's that strong of a corridor to do that. Maybe a rush hour only bus. I don't know if a West Belmont bus to Belmont/Cumberland terminal could work, but that would probably be hair raising to CTA as #77 uses that terminal quite a bit.

[Busjack]

7 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I don't know if a West Belmont bus to Belmont/Cumberland terminal could work

Only thing east of where the 319 turns is forest preserve, and Belmont-Cumberland is too far from where I think anyone from the Franklin Park industrial district wants to be left off.