#9800's & #1600's Lifetime Assignment list, bus retirements and other info

[Wolfman]

I'll post a couple more...

9902. Again, brand new. Carver High School parking lot.

More 9902. Unsure of the exact location - Maybe in the Pullman District, or quite possibly Beverly or Mount Greenwood. Take a look at all the factory "Landing Lights" and reflectors. These were the last CTA buses purchased with rollsigns. I liked having the backlit side signs. The M.A.N. artics had backlit side signs as well. In fact, I have a Forest Glen headsign off of 9949.

These buses had their faults. The first batch that Beverly Garage got soon sported cracks. Many of the fleet had headlight failures withing weeks of delivery. Maybe Flyer used cheap headlights back then.

I recall these buses had a terrible slow takeoff. When 9868 was brand new, I had it on a special charter going to O'Hare Airport, then Downtown to the old CPD Headquarters on State Street. I was in an official police motorcade, and cranked that bad boy up to 68 mph. Every other Flyer I drove after that was topped out at 50 mph or so. In the beginning, these buses were awesome in the snow. I worked the 92 Foster on Saturday nights, and where the Limits fishies were stuck and snowbanked at the Berwyn 'L', my bad assed Flyers got in and out down Berwyn to Sheridan Road. They also handled the snow and slush well on the Rosemont/River Road cloverleaf on the 40 Shorty.

Pretty good Canadian-built bus. It didn't do Flyer Industries much good, because at that point, it was the largest single order for buses they ever had, so maybe it freaked them out. At that time, Flyer Industries was provincially-owned (government run factory), and by Manitoba law, they were staffed with Indians (First-Nations) and offenders working there on court order. Not quite the quality workers that at GM Diesel Division, or Orion/OBI.

[mikeymc77]

I do love the runbox in each photo

[Guest]

9902. Again, brand new. Carver High School parking lot.

More 9902. Unsure of the exact location - Maybe in the Pullman District, or quite possibly Beverly or Mount Greenwood. Take a look at all the factory "Landing Lights" and reflectors. These were the last CTA buses purchased with rollsigns. I liked having the backlit side signs. The M.A.N. artics had backlit side signs as well. In fact, I have a Forest Glen headsign off of 9949.

These buses had their faults. The first batch that Beverly Garage got soon sported cracks. Many of the fleet had headlight failures withing weeks of delivery. Maybe Flyer used cheap headlights back then.

I recall these buses had a terrible slow takeoff. When 9868 was brand new, I had it on a special charter going to O'Hare Airport, then Downtown to the old CPD Headquarters on State Street. I was in an official police motorcade, and cranked that bad boy up to 68 mph. Every other Flyer I drove after that was topped out at 50 mph or so. In the beginning, these buses were awesome in the snow. I worked the 92 Foster on Saturday nights, and where the Limits fishies were stuck and snowbanked at the Berwyn 'L', my bad assed Flyers got in and out down Berwyn to Sheridan Road. They also handled the snow and slush well on the Rosemont/River Road cloverleaf on the 40 Shorty.

Pretty good Canadian-built bus. It didn't do Flyer Industries much good, because at that point, it was the largest single order for buses they ever had, so maybe it freaked them out. At that time, Flyer Industries was provincially-owned (government run factory), and by Manitoba law, they were staffed with Indians (First-Nations) and offenders working there on court order. Not quite the quality workers that at GM Diesel Division, or Orion/OBI.

I remember #9902 being assigned to North Ave. Beverly Gar. got #9800-9849, North ave got #9850-9929 and Forest Glen got #9930-9974 plus the entire #1600 series. When North ave closed in 1986 all of its Flyers went to FG. plus #9844 from Beverly.

[Wolfman]

I remember #9902 being assigned to North Ave. Beverly Gar. got #9800-9849, North ave got #9850-9929 and Forest Glen got #9930-9974 plus the entire #1600 series. When North ave closed in 1986 all of its Flyers went to FG. plus #9844 from Beverly.

Uh huh. I recall that those of us at The Glen were disappointed to get the North Avenue Flyers.

They were pretty much beat to shit, and anyone that remembers The Glen in the mid 1980s...

Well, The Glen had nice buses. We took care of them.

I think at that point, some of the FG Flyers began to migrate towards Limits.

[sw4400]

Bringing this up to make mention of a little history... so let's take a trip back to 1983 for a minute...

Many may think that after 1624 arrived on CTA property, that was the end of the Flyer D901 buses due to the cracks found, huh? Well, truth be told... they were planning to procure more buses in 1984-1985(maybe the CTA was pleased with how Flyer quickly fixed the frame cracking issue). The CTA ultimately decided not to go ahead with the order and cancelled it, so the built shells for the CTA's 2nd order went to Winnipeg for their Transit Authority. The buses you see in the links are leftover shells built for CTA in 1984-1985. This order that would've went to Flyer we know went to M.A.N for 361 Americanas that were delivered in 1985.

Pic #1 Pic#2 Pic#3 Pic#4

[jajuan]

Bringing this up to make mention of a little history... so let's take a trip back to 1983 for a minute...

Many may think that after 1624 arrived on CTA property, that was the end of the Flyer D901 buses due to the cracks found, huh? Well, truth be told... they were planning to procure more buses in 1984-1985(maybe the CTA was pleased with how Flyer quickly fixed the frame cracking issue). The CTA ultimately decided not to go ahead with the order and cancelled it, so the built shells for the CTA's 2nd order went to Winnipeg for their Transit Authority. The buses you see in the links are leftover shells built for CTA in 1984-1985. This order that would've went to Flyer we know went to M.A.N for 361 Americanas that were delivered in 1985.

Pic #1 Pic#2 Pic#3 Pic#4

The cracked frame issue with the D901s was a blessing in disguise for those of us who were fan's of MAN's Americana model. Kind of a shame that so few American cities besides Chicago ever had them as part of their TA's bus fleets.

[ibebobo]

I was definately NOT a fan of the Americanas. The exhaust came out right into you if you were a car travelling behind one. Same with the 4400s, but didn't seem quite as bad for whatever reason

[sw4400]

The cracked frame issue with the D901s was a blessing in disguise for those of us who were fan's of MAN's Americana model. Kind of a shame that so few American cities besides Chicago ever had them as part of their TA's bus fleets.

I have to wonder a few things in comparison to the Flyer D901A's vs. the M.A.N Americanas...

• Cost. How much did the Americanas cost vs. the D901A's? I know the Flyers were based out of Winnipeg unless Flyer had a U.S plant like they do now. M.A.N had a plant in North or South Carolina in the early '80's, which is what built 7100-7224(7000-7019 were built in Munich, Germany and finished by AM General here in the U.S in 1979). Because some parts had to be shipped from a farther distance(Germany vs. Canada), I wonder if the price of one Americana was more expensive than the price of one D901A.
• Powertrains. Detroit Diesel has been around for decades, going back to the 1940's or 1950's, and was known as a decent engine, being used in trucks and buses since their inception. The Flyer D901A's had a 6v71n engine and the M.A.N Americanas had a D2566 engine. Both seemed like they were good and required average maintenance, not a lot. I would imagine it was probably cheaper to get parts for the Flyer vs. the Americana since the D2566 was a German-made engine.

If anyone has something more to add, I welcome your input... It might be hard to find cost of the two buses, but perhaps someone who followed buses and/or CTA in the 1980's might be able to at least determine reliablility of the powertrains in both and if they were equal or if one had more down time than another.

[sw4400]

Here's a little YouTube video I found of one of our former CTA shells from the cancelled 1984-1985 order operating as a non-revenue bus with some busfans on board(description says it's an Ex-Winnipeg Transit). Bus #107(the 3rd picture link in my thread above).

[jajuan]

sw4400, on 05 Mar 2014 - 14:28, said:

I have to wonder a few things in comparison to the Flyer D901A's vs. the M.A.N Americanas...

• Cost. How much did the Americanas cost vs. the D901A's? I know the Flyers were based out of Winnipeg unless Flyer had a U.S plant like they do now. M.A.N had a plant in North or South Carolina in the early '80's, which is what built 7100-7224(7000-7019 were built in Munich, Germany and finished by AM General here in the U.S in 1979). Because some parts had to be shipped from a farther distance(Germany vs. Canada), I wonder if the price of one Americana was more expensive than the price of one D901A.
• Powertrains. Detroit Diesel has been around for decades, going back to the 1940's or 1950's, and was known as a decent engine, being used in trucks and buses since their inception. The Flyer D901A's had a 6v71n engine and the M.A.N Americanas had a D2566 engine. Both seemed like they were good and required average maintenance, not a lot. I would imagine it was probably cheaper to get parts for the Flyer vs. the Americana since the D2566 was a German-made engine.

If anyone has something more to add, I welcome your input... It might be hard to find cost of the two buses, but perhaps someone who followed buses and/or CTA in the 1980's might be able to at least determine reliablility of the powertrains in both and if they were equal or if one had more down time than another.

I was a kid back then, but both models seemed to be good buses outside of the cracked frame issue that cropped up with 1624 among the D901As. The Americanas seemed to be very well put together after they got past there own teething stage. (I vaguely recall a news report on Channel 7 News from early in their service about one on the south side having a back wheel come off.) The number of breakdown issues I witnessed with the Americanas were very few. And maybe the biggest problem I saw them having toward the end of their 19 years of service was that the flip dot signs had given out as evidenced by all the remaining 30-40 Americanas using paper signs. 4218 was probably the last remaining Americana having a working destination sign. Maybe some of our operator members who've had the opportunity to drive them could speak to if there were more mechanical issues toward the end beyond what I as a passenger could spot. I know a number of other members who are laymen like myself ragged on these buses in their last months of service, but as I said then these buses were still some real work horses but were being blatantly neglected by the CTA as evidenced by more than a few being sent out on the road during dry warm weather months with layers of dirt on the exterior which is inexcusable considering there aren't the dirty slush puddle issues of winter that have buses very dirty to that degree. I'd venture to say that the CTA staying compliant with the ADA by marching ever closer to a 100% accessible bus fleet was the main factor in these buses' retirement. From what I could tell they still ran relatively well at the end.

[sw4400]

I would love to research this 2nd order of Flyers that were planned to be delivered in 1984-1985 to the CTA and come back to you with what little info might be in the CTA's vaults, but sadly I think nobody at CTA nowadays would know where to find such fragmented information if it still exists, since that was 30 years ago. I know there would be no planned series numbers on paper for the cancelled orders, but perhaps there might be a cancelled contract somewhere that would mention how many were expected to be ordered... were they planning on ordering 362 Flyers in 1984-1985, which ultimately went to M.A.N, or was it a different amount expected? To dig deeper since the CTA did want more Americanas by the time the 4400's were to be procured only to have to look for an American Manufacturer due to the Buy American Act, would Flyer have been the GM Fishbowls of the 1980's. Presuming all would've been Flyer/New Flyer starting in 1983... this is just theorizing here...

• 1983 200 Flyer D901A's(9800-9974 & 1600-1624)
• 1984-1985 (TBD Amount) Flyer D901A(4000-4361?) 2nd order planned but cancelled
• 1989-1990 (TBD Amount) New Flyer D40(4400-4875?) Presuming 2nd order was procured and the CTA did plan on ordering from them like they planned to do so with M.A.N for more Americanas.

Would the CTA have had 1,038 Flyer buses on the streets of Chicago? I know the CTA had to meet with the ADA act, but I think New Flyer was making buses with wheelchair lifts around the time the TMC's were procured and if they had a U.S plant, they might've gotten the nod. Not quite the 1,870 total GM Fishbowls purchased between 1972 and 1977, but getting close if these were all Flyer/New Flyer buses. I think Flyer would've been the GM Fishbowls of the '80's easily if this had transitioned, and it might've if the CTA did take that second order of Flyer D901A's. We still might've gotten the Flxibles in 1991 and 1995, but Chicago would've been a predominately Flyer/New Flyer city from the '80's through the '90's and dwindling in the new millennium. Can anyone imagine a city full of Flyers/New Flyers(aside from the 1,358 total on the active roster now)?

[jajuan]

I would love to research this 2nd order of Flyers that were planned to be delivered in 1984-1985 to the CTA and come back to you with what little info might be in the CTA's vaults, but sadly I think nobody at CTA nowadays would know where to find such fragmented information if it still exists, since that was 30 years ago. I know there would be no planned series numbers on paper for the cancelled orders, but perhaps there might be a cancelled contract somewhere that would mention how many were expected to be ordered... were they planning on ordering 362 Flyers in 1984-1985, which ultimately went to M.A.N, or was it a different amount expected? To dig deeper since the CTA did want more Americanas by the time the 4400's were to be procured only to have to look for an American Manufacturer due to the Buy American Act, would Flyer have been the GM Fishbowls of the 1980's. Presuming all would've been Flyer/New Flyer starting in 1983... this is just theorizing here...

• 1983 200 Flyer D901A's(9800-9974 & 1600-1624)
• 1984-1985 (TBD Amount) Flyer D901A(4000-4361?) 2nd order planned but cancelled
• 1989-1990 (TBD Amount) New Flyer D40(4400-4875?) Presuming 2nd order was procured and the CTA did plan on ordering from them like they planned to do so with M.A.N for more Americanas.

Would the CTA have had 1,038 Flyer buses on the streets of Chicago? I know the CTA had to meet with the ADA act, but I think New Flyer was making buses with wheelchair lifts around the time the TMC's were procured and if they had a U.S plant, they might've gotten the nod. Not quite the 1,870 total GM Fishbowls purchased between 1972 and 1977, but getting close if these were all Flyer/New Flyer buses. I think Flyer would've been the GM Fishbowls of the '80's easily if this had transitioned, and it might've if the CTA did take that second order of Flyer D901A's. We still might've gotten the Flxibles in 1991 and 1995, but Chicago would've been a predominately Flyer/New Flyer city from the '80's through the '90's and dwindling in the new millennium. Can anyone imagine a city full of Flyers/New Flyers(aside from the 1,358 total on the active roster now)?

To add to that about complying with ADA requirements, King County Metro which operates Seattle and it's surrounding area's transit is evidence that M.A.N was able to manufacture buses with wheelchair lifts as both their M.A.N. artics and Americanas did have wheelchair lifts. So you're right that the Buy America Act likely had a stronger play in CTA and other U.S TAs not acquiring more buses of any model from M.A.N. after the 1980s. So the CTA purchases after the Americanas were the TMC RTS 4400 series, which can be said to be unique due to their initially not having AC leading to them having rear windows along with CTA requirements that the lifts be at the front doors, and the Flxible Metro 5300 series.

[Busjack]

To add to that about complying with ADA requirements, King County Metro which operates Seattle and it's surrounding area's transit is evidence that M.A.N was able to manufacture buses with wheelchair lifts as both their M.A.N. artics and Americanas did have wheelchair lifts. So you're right that the Buy America Act likely had a stronger play in CTA and other U.S TAs not acquiring more buses of any model from M.A.N. after the 1980s. So the CTA purchases after the Americanas were the TMC RTS 4400 series, which can be said to be unique due to their initially not having AC leading to them having rear windows along with CTA requirements that the lifts be at the front doors, and the Flxible Metro 5300 series.

It was documented that other bus assemblers protested to the FTA when CTA sent out an apparent sole source specs for a next generation MAN. While that was held up over that and various disability advocate lawsuits before the ADA, MAN left the country. So, about 1989, there was nothing to buy from them.

[jajuan]

It was documented that other bus assemblers protested to the FTA when CTA sent out an apparent sole source specs for a next generation MAN. While that was held up over that and various disability advocate lawsuits before the ADA, MAN left the country. So, about 1989, there was nothing to buy from them.

Well that's about as far away from Buy America as you can get. But given CTA's low bid contract award history, MAN leaving the country probably makes would have knock them out of contention of getting further CTA contracts anyway because of the added costs. if there were any realistic thought that they would work on getting them exported from Germany to the States. So It's probably more accurate to say MAN had the product to sell but not here within the United States. But either way, they still ceased selling buses here in the United States regardless of the path that lead to that end result.

[andrethebusman]

Since there seems to be interest, let me throw in something from my records. Attached is a retirements list for 9800/1600's. It has, in order, the following for each bus:

- Bus number

- Authorization for retirement number

- date removed from South Shops

- to whom sold

This was taken from CTA "scrap letters" which are a form generated at South Shops to inform downtown of removal of scrap. I have this information for all CTA revenue vehicles from 1947 to current 7500 removals. Note that some buses removed in February and March 1998 do not show exact dates. This is because these were removed by Charles Lans of South Beloit, CTA's preferred scrapper at the time, days before Lans suddenly went out of business. As a result, CTA never got paid for these buses, and no scrap letters were ever added to the file, and eventually the buses in question were written off as "lost".

As a follow-up, a few notes:

9870 to Chicago Fire Dept - seen at Fire Academy (Jackson/Loomis) without engine, assumed eventually scrapped

1606 to Chicago Historical Bus Museum (D Buzek)current status??

final dispositions for the 11 that became work buses:

9800 to WB3 (1st) sold 10/25/02 to OmniSource

9815 to WB10 sold 07/26/04 to Metals Management

9832 to WB4 r# WB10 (2nd) sold 11/13/08 to Sims

9842 to WB5 (1st) r# WB3 (2nd) sold 09/23/04 to Metals Management

9893 to WB9 sold 11/12/08 to Sims

9914 to WB8 sold 11/12/08 to Sims

9958 to WB1 sold 11/11/08 to Sims

9968 to TC8 r# WB5 (3rd) sold 11/11/08 to Sims

9974 to TC7 sold 12/30/04 to Metals Management

1602 to WB2 sold 11/12/08 to Sims

1620 to WB5 (2nd) sold 08/24/04 to Metals Management

The WB numbers were considered unofficial and actually referred to the ironworkers gang the bus "belonged" to, but were the only ID visible on the bus. TC7 and TC8 were driver training buses that were supposed to replace two 5307's (that still exist!).

9800.txt

[andrethebusman]

Well that's about as far away from Buy America as you can get. But given CTA's low bid contract award history, MAN leaving the country probably makes would have knock them out of contention of getting further CTA contracts anyway because of the added costs. if there were any realistic thought that they would work on getting them exported from Germany to the States. So It's probably more accurate to say MAN had the product to sell but not here within the United States. But either way, they still ceased selling buses here in the United States regardless of the path that lead to that end result.

MAN built three "pilots" for CTA (#5000-5002) that were never delivered (and resulted in the Flxibles starting at 5300). Apparently losing the CTA job was the final straw and the German main office pulled the plug on US operations.

[andrethebusman]

Another item:

The 9800 that ran at CTA in service was NOT the original 9800. That one was rejected and returned to Flyer, who then produced a new one. 9822 was the "guinea pig" to figure out what could be done to fix the cracks and also never returned, being replaced by a new 9822. Finally, 1613 did indeed make it here, but was never accepted. Flyer then used it to try to determine the cause of the cracks. Saw it once downtown, running around with no number/lettering but otherwise complete, with a bunch of wires strung around the rear door, with a CTA driver driving it and someone (apparently a Flyer tech) sitting by the back door. When Flyer was finished with these three, they were all fully rebuilt, and sold to Brandon Transit in Manitoba as numbers 38,36,37 respectively where they ran until circa 2002 or so.

[sw4400]

Another item:

The 9800 that ran at CTA in service was NOT the original 9800. That one was rejected and returned to Flyer, who then produced a new one. 9822 was the "guinea pig" to figure out what could be done to fix the cracks and also never returned, being replaced by a new 9822. Finally, 1613 did indeed make it here, but was never accepted. Flyer then used it to try to determine the cause of the cracks. Saw it once downtown, running around with no number/lettering but otherwise complete, with a bunch of wires strung around the rear door, with a CTA driver driving it and someone (apparently a Flyer tech) sitting by the back door. When Flyer was finished with these three, they were all fully rebuilt, and sold to Brandon Transit in Manitoba as numbers 38,36,37 respectively where they ran until circa 2002 or so.

• You're correct on #9822... it was the only Flyer D901A that was not a 1983 model, it was a 1986 model.
• You're a bit off on #1613. The number that was never accepted by the CTA was #1614.

Now that I have a few nibblers, I'll pose the earlier question about the second order that was almost to be delivered in 1984-1985 by Flyer(the contract must've been drawn up on paper, the only thing missing was the funding as shells were built and ready for CTA at the Flyer plant which ultimately went to Winnipeg Transit). Does anyone have any insight on how many the CTA was planning on procuring from Flyer for this order? Was it 362, which was the number of buses procured from M.A.N in 1985, which was probably given the contract after the CTA dropped the order.

I can try emailing the CTA as previously stated, but being that it was 30 years ago now, and computers were pretty antiquated then, the only hope to find out from there is if someone in that procurement dept. is still working in 2014(I highly doubt that).

[Busjack]

Well that's about as far away from Buy America as you can get. But given CTA's low bid contract award history, MAN leaving the country probably makes would have knock them out of contention of getting further CTA contracts anyway because of the added costs....

The added costs was why MAN left. They had an assembly plant in North Carolina, so I don't think Buy America entered into it until they closed it.

Essentially no different than Nova saying they were leaving the U.S transit market in 2002, but would serve other markets (I guess Disney World and the like) from their Quebec plant. The only difference is that Nova came back and opened the Plattsburgh plant a couple of years ago.

[Guest]

• You're correct on #9822... it was the only Flyer D901A that was not a 1983 model, it was a 1986 model.
• You're a bit off on #1613. The number that was never accepted by the CTA was #1614.

Now that I have a few nibblers, I'll pose the earlier question about the second order that was almost to be delivered in 1984-1985 by Flyer(the contract must've been drawn up on paper, the only thing missing was the funding as shells were built and ready for CTA at the Flyer plant which ultimately went to Winnipeg Transit). Does anyone have any insight on how many the CTA was planning on procuring from Flyer for this order? Was it 362, which was the number of buses procured from M.A.N in 1985, which was probably given the contract after the CTA dropped the order.

I can try emailing the CTA as previously stated, but being that it was 30 years ago now, and computers were pretty antiquated then, the only hope to find out from there is if someone in that procurement dept. is still working in 2014(I highly doubt that).

Yes, Flyer #1614 was never delivered. Flyer #9822 had the larger San Fran Muni #4500 series style front destination sign and #9844 was the only bus equipped with a Cummins Diesel instead of the majority DD 6V92. That bus sounded awesome!

[BusHunter]

Yes, Flyer #1614 was never delivered. Flyer #9822 had the larger San Fran Muni #4500 series style front destination sign and #9844 was the only bus equipped with a Cummins Diesel instead of the majority DD 6V92. That bus sounded awesome!

I wonder if #9844 had that engine for the life of the bus. I remember #9822 had a digital destination sign way back when it was running out of 77th, which would be pre 1989. I wonder if that sign was also installed for the life of the bus. I know the Fg ones like #9898 and #9973 and #9974 had them pre 1989, but I believe #9973's was changed back to the traditional sign when it went to 77th.

[jajuan]

Yes, Flyer #1614 was never delivered. Flyer #9822 had the larger San Fran Muni #4500 series style front destination sign and #9844 was the only bus equipped with a Cummins Diesel instead of the majority DD 6V92. That bus sounded awesome!

I wonder if #9844 had that engine for the life of the bus. I remember #9822 had a digital destination sign way back when it was running out of 77th, which would be pre 1989. I wonder if that sign was also installed for the life of the bus. I know the Fg ones like #9898 and #9973 and #9974 had them pre 1989, but I believe #9973's was changed back to the traditional sign when it went to 77th.

Didn't 9973 and 9974 also have different engines in addition to having a digital sign as 9822 did? I remember riding on 9973 on the 85 Central after school, a few weeks before the 85 became accessible when FG got 5300 series Flxibles, and having that bus catch my attention because it not only had the digital signs, it also had dark tinted windows as the Americanas originally had and its engine gear shifted in much the same pattern as an Americana's. As I recall it still had a few black paint specks on the windows' metal framing from when it had the tinted windows.

[artthouwill]

Uh huh. I recall that those of us at The Glen were disappointed to get the North Avenue Flyers.

They were pretty much beat to shit, and anyone that remembers The Glen in the mid 1980s...

Well, The Glen had nice buses. We took care of them.

I think at that point, some of the FG Flyers began to migrate towards Limits.

First off, I hated those Flyer buses. That said, I remember that Beverly's Flyers were swapped with 77th's Americanas when the garage opened at 103rd/Stony Island, replacing Beverly garage. Eventually, I don't remember when, Archer wound up with those Flyers.

[Anthony Mallette]

1990-1994

[ChicagoNova]

On 3/6/2014 at 2:43 PM, artthouwill said:

 

First off, I hated those Flyer buses. That said, I remember that Beverly's Flyers were swapped with 77th's Americanas when the garage opened at 103rd/Stony Island, replacing Beverly garage. Eventually, I don't remember when, Archer wound up with those Flyers.

Either 1995 or 1996.