Overcrowded Buses

[sw4400]

This is from NOVA #6725 @ 11:50a working the #152 going West.

[flossman]

This is from NOVA #6725 @ 11:50a working the #152 going West.

I know the #10 and #15 in Milwaukee aren't CTA routes, but I see the same thing almost every day. That can't be safe, and I thought it was illegal to operate the bus with people that far forward?

[Busjack]

I know the #10 and #15 in Milwaukee aren't CTA routes, but I see the same thing almost every day. That can't be safe, and I thought it was illegal to operate the bus with people that far forward?

This was discussed a couple of days ago on the CTA Tattler, with someone else providing the citations to the federal regulations.

[sw4400]

FWIW, I did send a complaint to the CTA and will share their reply with you(if I get one). I also sent a copy of the overcrowded bus rules to them, explaining how they are in violation of a Federal Policy.

It is ridiculous when you have to yell at people to get off the bus just so you can move through a bunch of people that shouldn't be there... Suppose the bus went up in flames, God forbid!!! Also, if a bicyclist was near the bus on the right, where now the Operator couldn't see or if a parked car was pulling out.

[sw4400]

I got a reply.... I hope it possibly will start a change in protocol, but I won't hold my breath. Here's the response...

Thank you for your comments. We apologize for your negative travel experience. This issue has been forwarded to the responsible General Manager for appropriate action. Safety is the CTA’s top priority, so thank you for reporting this incident.

Again, we are sorry for the inconvenience.

CTA FEEDBACK TEAM

[jajuan]

There is one operator on the 93 who not only enforces the rule, she takes it a step further and insists that seniors sit when there are seats available before pulling away from the stop.

[Busjack]

I got a reply.... I hope it possibly will start a change in protocol, but I won't hold my breath. Here's the response...

Thank you for your comments. We apologize for your negative travel experience. This issue has been forwarded to the responsible General Manager for appropriate action. Safety is the CTA's top priority, so thank you for reporting this incident.

Again, we are sorry for the inconvenience.

CTA FEEDBACK TEAM

Despite what some people say on the CTA Tattler, you got the stock "we aren't going to do anything" autotext reply. So, unless you promptly get something else, that's it.

I suppose that if they enforced this rule given the cutbacks last year, half of those waiting at the bus stop would remain waiting at the bus stop.

[Railwaymodeler]

There is one operator on the 93 who not only enforces the rule, she takes it a step further and insists that seniors sit when there are seats available before pulling away from the stop.

I wonder now, as due to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, a bus driver cannot legally make anyone give up their seat for any reason (I have been informed by my lawyer, after asking him when several Pace drivers told me this), that even with "priority seating", even if a wheelchair passenger boards, if a passenger in those seats does not want to move, neither the driver, nor law enforcement, nor anyone else for that matter, has the right to force him.

Point being, if by law they cannot make someone give up their seat, can anyone legally make someone have a seat?

[Busjack]

I wonder now, as due to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, a bus driver cannot legally make anyone give up their seat for any reason (I have been informed by my lawyer, after asking him when several Pace drivers told me this), that even with "priority seating", even if a wheelchair passenger boards, if a passenger in those seats does not want to move, neither the driver, nor law enforcement, nor anyone else for that matter, has the right to force him.

Point being, if by law they cannot make someone give up their seat, can anyone legally make someone have a seat?

1964 Civil Rights Act only means that an offeror of public accommodations (or in this case, a recipient of federal money) is not allowed to discriminate on the basis of race or national origin. There is nothing in it about the right to be a boor, nor that supersedes the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990.

Update: citations to public accommodations; federally assisted programs.

[Kevin]

I wonder now, as due to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, a bus driver cannot legally make anyone give up their seat for any reason (I have been informed by my lawyer, after asking him when several Pace drivers told me this), that even with "priority seating", even if a wheelchair passenger boards, if a passenger in those seats does not want to move, neither the driver, nor law enforcement, nor anyone else for that matter, has the right to force him.

Point being, if by law they cannot make someone give up their seat, can anyone legally make someone have a seat?

This is the official CTA policy regarding priority seating (source):

There are times when a bus will be too crowded to board or where customers already in the priority seating (who may or may not have disabilities of their own) decline to move. A bus operator can only request — not require — other paying customers to vacate the priority seating.

This is different from some other transit agencies, such as Portland's TriMet, which has signs on their buses and LRVs saying "you are required to move for seniors & people with disabilities."

This can come down to a right of privacy issue. Someone could claim, whether true or not, that they have a disability that requires use of the priority seating area. Is an agency like TriMet going to demand to see medical records if someone refuses to vacate the priority seating area?

[artthouwill]

This is the official CTA policy regarding priority seating (source):

This is different from some other transit agencies, such as Portland's TriMet, which has signs on their buses and LRVs saying "you are required to move for seniors & people with disabilities."

This can come down to a right of privacy issue. Someone could claim, whether true or not, that they have a disability that requires use of the priority seating area. Is an agency like TriMet going to demand to see medical records if someone refuses to vacate the priority seating area?

like this? Watch both parts. I think it perfectly illustrates the problem and the policy.

[Railwaymodeler]

To be honest, I have two physical problems: Degenerative Disc Disorder in my back, and bad arthritis in my left knee. This "entitles" me to the priority seating. However, one would not know it by looking at me. I'm 27 years old, most others my age simply don't have these problems (yet). Generally I sit, when possible, first seat on the right side of the bus. As I also have seizures, this keeps me visible.

Most of the North Division drivers know me well enough to know of my health issues.

There's also times it makes more sense to stand, even if the bus is mostly empty. On the 568, for example, going down Dugdale, that road is so bad and bumpy, that if the weather is cool, damp, what-have-you, then I get concerned that my back may pop if I am seated. If this happens, I would need paramedics to get me up. So, I stand and brace myself against whatever is handy. This makes it far less likely that my back will go out hitting a pothole or bump.

[Busjack]

like this? Watch both parts. I think it perfectly illustrates the problem and the policy.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=SkzLiLcJFcI

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

At least this illustrates why it is not a Civil Rights Act of 1964 case.

The thing that surprises me is that the dumb a---es, especially the one with the cell phone, know they are being recorded, but do it anyway. From what I was able to hear, apparently one of sw's "favorite people," who probably was riding free, was exercising his privilege as such. At least in Toronto someone would offer someone a seat. But given that the "knock him out" guy decided to surrender yesterday, maybe someone will get the point not to be a jerk, because others can identify you on YouTube.

In Railway Modeler's case, I can see the problem (anticipated by Kevin) that a bus rider, in effect, doesn't have a disabled mirror tag that a driver would. However, I would be surprised if the people were as boorish or the bus that crowded in Waukegan.

As far as Kevin's point, that, combined with sw's point of yesterday, indicates that CTA can't enforce any kind of order on its buses. At least no one has shot one up since the guy with the multicolor sweater. Maybe those cameras have marginal effect.

But I can also see the point that the paratransit expense here will never be reduced so long as the disabled can't get on CTA buses. Carole Brown thought she was real smart dumping the paratransit responsibility off on Pace, but now Pace is guaranteed to get that money off the top, apparently also at CTA's expense.

[sw4400]

Goes back to the incident on the #80 bus, Busjack. If a Senior boards and asks "may I please sit there?". Fine, here you go. But when you got one that starts pulling you out of your seat, and a nearby person in a seat offers hers, and he bluntly tells her "Mind your business, you'll live longer!", that's a person who shouldn't be shown the courtesy, dignity and respect of somebody giving up their seat for them.

[jajuan]

I wonder now, as due to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, a bus driver cannot legally make anyone give up their seat for any reason (I have been informed by my lawyer, after asking him when several Pace drivers told me this), that even with "priority seating", even if a wheelchair passenger boards, if a passenger in those seats does not want to move, neither the driver, nor law enforcement, nor anyone else for that matter, has the right to force him.

Point being, if by law they cannot make someone give up their seat, can anyone legally make someone have a seat?

I'm guessing her insistence that any standing seniors sit has to do with what I heard one #12 operator say once a few months about operators going through a mandatory retrain if a passenger falls on their bus along with that being flagged on their records for a couple years after this guy almost slipped and fell on a wet spot of the floor of the bus during a moderate strength rain shower. She was queezing her bus through tight turns in narrowed down road construction spaces, one to install one of those concrete bus stop slabs at the Kimball/Brown Line 81 Lawrence bus stop and the other at the Swedish Covenant Hospital construction site on California and Foster, each time she asked they take a seat.

[sw4400]

Got yet ANOTHER overcrowded bus this evening(Bus #6786, Run #F344). How many more complaints does one have to file before something is done??? Give more frequent bus service on Addison during School Hours or something!!! I shouldn't have to yell at High School kids to move so I can leave the bus at my stop because the bus is so crowded, there are kids on the wheelchair ramp crammed up against the door.

BTW: I did file a complaint with the FG Supervisor. I'm really thinking about seeing if the Trib or Sun Times might do a article... this needs to be addressed!!!

[Busjack]

Got yet ANOTHER overcrowded bus this evening(Bus #6786, Run #F344). How many more complaints does one have to file before something is done??? Give more frequent bus service on Addison during School Hours or something!!! I shouldn't have to yell at High School kids to move so I can leave the bus at my stop because the bus is so crowded, there are kids on the wheelchair ramp crammed up against the door.

BTW: I did file a complaint with the FG Supervisor. I'm really thinking about seeing if the Trib or Sun Times might do a article... this needs to be addressed!!!

It is simple--service got cut 20% 2 years ago, what does one expect? I'm sure every bus is packed when school gets out.

As I point out on the CTA Tattler--if the riders were willing to pay a $3 base fare, CTA could afford to bring back service. Apparently, however, the riders are not.

[i8itall4u]

Got yet ANOTHER overcrowded bus this evening(Bus #6786, Run #F344). How many more complaints does one have to file before something is done??? Give more frequent bus service on Addison during School Hours or something!!! I shouldn't have to yell at High School kids to move so I can leave the bus at my stop because the bus is so crowded, there are kids on the wheelchair ramp crammed up against the door.

BTW: I did file a complaint with the FG Supervisor. I'm really thinking about seeing if the Trib or Sun Times might do a article... this needs to be addressed!!!

I feel your overcrowding concern but Busjack is right. If operators started blowing past you because the Tribune/Sun Times/cta makes them enforce the "yellow line" rule, what would you do? Complain that you saw plenty of room on board as they went by?

[sw4400]

It is simple--service got cut 20% 2 years ago, what does one expect? I'm sure every bus is packed when school gets out.

As I point out on the CTA Tattler--if the riders were willing to pay a $3 base fare, CTA could afford to bring back service. Apparently, however, the riders are not.

Busjack, would you like to yell at people to let you through that are blocking the doors?(which, BTW, is a U.S Dept. of Transportation safety issue that says all exits and mirrors, both driver and passenger sides are to remain clear at all times). I had to yell at them to allow me to move off as they were charting amongst themselves and couldn't seem to care that I was at my stop.

[Busjack]

Busjack, would you like to yell at people to let you through that are blocking the doors?(which, BTW, is a U.S Dept. of Transportation safety issue that says all exits and mirrors, both driver and passenger sides are to remain clear at all times). I had to yell at them to allow me to move off as they were charting amongst themselves and couldn't seem to care that I was at my stop.

Whether I had to squeeze by people (I remember one guy of another racial group asking me to go "booty to booty"), there are two practical concerns given the resource constraints here:

• If DOT wants to enforce its regulations, it is up to it to do so. Apparently they don't have the resources.
• Given the 20% across the board service cut, while you think you might have gotten somewhere contacting the garage superintendent, he no doubt does not have the authority to schedule additional runs, and certainly does not have the buses to do so (and Claypool is trying to cut back the extra board).

I'm surprised, that since only NP has articulated buses in that area, you didn't contact that superintendent to divert one.

Despite your dislike for Blago, both you and he fail to recognize one fundamental rule of economics--there are only so many resources to go around. The state, in general, and CTA in particular, have reached that limit. That is, unless the riders are willing to pay a higher fare to bypass the cattle car conditions, either directly to the CTA, or by leasing a ZipCar from their premises or paying for a cab. That's just simple economics.

I take it that Customer Service hasn't followed up on their autotext response to you, either.

[BusHunter]

Starting this week there are now signs placed over the accessible seating areas on buses to encourage riders to give up there seat to a person with disabilities or a senior. This would seem to be aimed at the stroller crowd or just able bodied riders in general who do not want to give up there seat. As far as overcrowding is concerned since the last big service cuts of '09, it is a much more frequent occurance. I've seen riders even now get off the bus to let people out and get back on. That slows the bus down, but barring a service increase what are you going to do?

[artthouwill]

Starting this week there are now signs placed over the accessible seating areas on buses to encourage riders to give up there seat to a person with disabilities or a senior. This would seem to be aimed at the stroller crowd or just able bodied riders in general who do not want to give up there seat. As far as overcrowding is concerned since the last big service cuts of '09, it is a much more frequent occurance. I've seen riders even now get off the bus to let people out and get back on. That slows the bus down, but barring a service increase what are you going to do?

I've seen those signs too, and the thing I noticed is that the logos for RTA, CTA, Pace, and Metra are all on there. I imagine that eventually we will see them standard on all public transit vehicles here. For now I have only seen them on CTA buses, and I have been on CTA buses and trains, Pace buses, and Metra this week.

Overcrowding will even be a bigger issue as the weather worsens. It certainly would be a good thing if/when CTA procures the next order for artics (aside from the 53 coming next) if the idea is to replace the Novas with them.

I am wondering about making a garage like 77th and/or NP all artics. Any routes that they have that only require 40ft buses can be transferred to another garage. For instance, if 77th ran artics on the 3,4,6, 14, 79, 87, and 169 (and also Ashland or Western when those become BRT), routes like 1, 2, 71, 8A, and 49A could go to 103rd, and 24, 43 could go to 74th while 35, and 39 could go to Kedzie or 74th. This gives the heavy routes the most capacity and better utilizes the equipment.

[Sam92]

I've seen those signs too, and the thing I noticed is that the logos for RTA, CTA, Pace, and Metra are all on there. I imagine that eventually we will see them standard on all public transit vehicles here. For now I have only seen them on CTA buses, and I have been on CTA buses and trains, Pace buses, and Metra this week.

Overcrowding will even be a bigger issue as the weather worsens. It certainly would be a good thing if/when CTA procures the next order for artics (aside from the 53 coming next) if the idea is to replace the Novas with them.

I am wondering about making a garage like 77th and/or NP all artics. Any routes that they have that only require 40ft buses can be transferred to another garage. For instance, if 77th ran artics on the 3,4,6, 14, 79, 87, and 169 (and also Ashland or Western when those become BRT), routes like 1, 2, 71, 8A, and 49A could go to 103rd, and 24, 43 could go to 74th while 35, and 39 could go to Kedzie or 74th. This gives the heavy routes the most capacity and better utilizes the equipment.

When did we get 53 artics? Last time I checked it was 37 Hybrid Artics. I think you're getting that confused with the 53 that are supposed to go to 103rd for Jeffery BRT service. And if you wanted 77th to take on 103rd's artic routes then you'd probably have to add the 26 to there since it's been using quite a few since we started gaining back some. Also the 15 and some Dan Ryan routes used them from time to time when we were at 65

[Busjack]

..

I am wondering about making a garage like 77th and/or NP all artics. Any routes that they have that only require 40ft buses can be transferred to another garage. For instance, if 77th ran artics on the 3,4,6, 14, 79, 87, and 169 (and also Ashland or Western when those become BRT), routes like 1, 2, 71, 8A, and 49A could go to 103rd...

Besides Sam's point (the 53 for Jeffery BRT are existing buses), I don't see the point of making any garage all artics, unless the point is that there is no where else to store them. This certainly doesn't help the deadheading issue, and if you put more routes at 103, you have to take some other routes out of there.

I do acknowledge that there would be a storage problem if 9 or 49 went artic.

[jajuan]

Speaking of the storage issue, if you made a garage all artic then you can't keep the same number of buses at that garage since artics are obviously longer. Also you'd probably run into having to increase the number of buses at the garage you think you'd be able to switch the lighter routes to. And I can tell you right now Kedzie wouldn't have the space, not to mention it operates most of the weekday runs on 145 and 148 after the morning rush as well as operating the 151 Belmont runs and all of the 134 and 156 runs. On all those, Kedzie runs a lot of artics. So you really wouldn't be pulling artics from there. Also where are you going to fit the 11, 22 (because it doesn't always use artics), 36, NP's 49 runs, 49B, 50, NP's 82 runs, 93, 96, 97, NP's runs on the 120, 121, 122, 123, the 144, 151 (same reason as 22), 155, 201, 205 and 206? CTA5750 already pointed out there's no room at FG. Chicago is about the same size as Kedzie with almost the same number of buses so there's not room there either. There are primarily six routes that NP operates as mostly or all artic so how do you make up the extra work shifted out? It's not going to get by with just the Lake Shore expresses. As for 103rd, it needs artics primarily for the 6 and 14. So where do you make up the extra work there even if you were to bring in the 3, 4, 79 and maybe the 87? And where the heck do you move all the rest of what doesn't use a lot of artics at 103rd? As in NP's case, there are a lot more routes than realized there that don't operate a lot of artics if any. I'm with Busjack about this one. That idea is not very feasible once you get down to the details of what gets switched and where.