Busjack Posted June 2, 2012 Report Share Posted June 2, 2012 Have to register to download. Not going to do that. Still, can't help but note that the two proposals add up to 1029 buses. Anyone know which bus gets left out? As I have mentioned before, komputerz iz dumm. You can figure out a way to get it without giving real identifying information. And there was a proposal a couple of months ago to fix one NF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted June 2, 2012 Report Share Posted June 2, 2012 And there was a proposal a couple of months ago to fix one NF. I'm guessing that 1482 will be a part of this total rebuild of 1,030 standard Diesel Buses in the procurement the CTA put out. If it isn't, then 1482 is most likely retired early like 6568, 6610, 6726 and 6832 were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanbytes Posted June 2, 2012 Report Share Posted June 2, 2012 I put the PDF on my Dropbox. You can download it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
See Tea Eh Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 A couple of interesting observations -The third door is "optional" for the artics -Artics to come equipped with interior LCD displays, presumably for advertising (though I don't think it explicitly says) -There's a pretty glaring error on page 44 -Still using the handle for the door controls, not push buttons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 A couple of interesting observations -The third door is "optional" for the artics -Artics to come equipped with interior LCD displays, presumably for advertising (though I don't think it explicitly says) -There's a pretty glaring error on page 44 -Still using the handle for the door controls, not push buttons On the LCDs, I'm not sure what page to which you are referring. My impression was that they were the Clever Device next stop displays, in which case there would be an ambiguity in that the 40 foot buses don't need two. Maybe you could give the page number. Update: Kevin mentioned on the home page that both the 3 doors and the screens may be BRT enhancements. I was going to foam about page 44, but I see the "to sixty-five (75)," which is to what I suppose you are referring. Another example of people playing lawyer again. Actually, the interesting thing about that paragraph is that there is a bond to guaranty performance under the contract, including warranties, but it gets released over time. The questions are (1) I assume the same was in the NABI contract, and (2) whether the bond got released 2 years after last delivery, or, because CTA withheld payment at the end, there wasn't a last delivery, and that bonding company is on the hook for the eventual judgment. In that there is an appearance in the court case for American Casualty, that would indicate that the bond company is on the hook. If you want to get picky, the quantities don't agree with themselves or the press release, in that the press release says 100 artics and 325 40 footers, but the public part of the solicitation says "up to 450," and if you take the minimum artics and max 40 footers, you get up to 500. However, I'm sure that this is just to provide some flexibility in case someone reappraises the demand, but the numbers in the press release are not set in stone. Also, to get back to Gene King's question of a couple of weeks ago, apparently CTA has decided that 40 foot hybrids do not pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 I'm guessing that 1482 will be a part of this total rebuild of 1,030 standard Diesel Buses in the procurement the CTA put out. If it isn't, then 1482 is most likely retired early like 6568, 6610, 6726 and 6832 were. I would guess otherwise. The press release says "the 430 buses not originally equipped with particulate filters will receive them as part of the overhaul." If one were to make any inference, the one advertised before will get it as part of that advertisement. The ambiguity would be that 1482 would be 53 newer than the 430 indicated, if it is the older (base and option 1) that don't have the filters. But I see that nobody (at least not ryanbytes) provided a link to the 2 overhaul requests. So, if anyone really wants to know, it's back to my "komputerz izz dumm" method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newport Posted June 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Have to register to download. Not going to do that. Still, can't help but note that the two proposals add up to 1029 buses. Anyone know which bus gets left out? You can register to download with a fake name, address and email address. (John Doe, 123 Main Street, Anytown, IL, jdoe@noaddress.com) They don't appear to verify any of the information. They probably request the information so that if there are changes or addendums to the RFPs or other documents they can email potential vendors a notice to that effect. Often big projects have several addendums with more information or a revised due date, and having a list of interested bidders is a good way to get the revised info out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 I would guess otherwise. The press release says "the 430 buses not originally equipped with particulate filters will receive them as part of the overhaul." If one were to make any inference, the one advertised before will get it as part of that advertisement. That might link the post I put up awhile back here about the New Flyer D40LF series with the Cummins ISL Engines(1630-2029) and why these buses are smoking so badly. That totals around 400 buses(pretty close to the 430 mark). The New Flyer D40LF series with the Cummins ISM Engines(1000-1629) totals around 630 buses, and like I've stated, I've never seen these buses put out as much exhaust as the Cummins ISL counterparts. That's suprising that units 1630-2029 are newer than 1000-1629, yet they don't have the particulate filters? I wonder if they were unavailable as an option for the smaller, more fuel efficient Cummins ISL Engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 That might link the post I put up awhile back here about the New Flyer D40LF series with the Cummins ISL Engines(1630-2029) and why these buses are smoking so badly. That totals around 400 buses(pretty close to the 430 mark). The New Flyer D40LF series with the Cummins ISM Engines(1000-1629) totals around 630 buses, and like I've stated, I've never seen these buses put out as much exhaust as the Cummins ISL counterparts. That's suprising that units 1630-2029 are newer than 1000-1629, yet they don't have the particulate filters? I wonder if they were unavailable as an option for the smaller, more fuel efficient Cummins ISL Engine. This does get more curious. There were some CTA statements about retrofitting some NFs so that they would be the same as the others. However, for legal reasons, one would think that the last two options would have had to have been EPA 2007 compliant. Also, you have 400, while they said 430. I'm sure that now that newport has spilled the beans, you can go directly to the source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVTArider Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) You can register to download with a fake name, address and email address. (John Doe, 123 Main Street, Anytown, IL, jdoe@noaddress.com) Not to beat a dead horse, but this also works well: EDIT: Also with rebuilding part of the 1000 series, I wonder if CTA is planning to roll out a new livery? Now would be the time to do it, with 100 buses on order, possibly more coming in, plus a few hundred getting completely overhauled. Of course it is the most sensible time to start re-livery, so they'll probably wait until a year after all the buses have been freshly repainted, then re-livery and repaint again. Edited June 4, 2012 by MVTArider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 ... EDIT: Also with rebuilding part of the 1000 series, I wonder if CTA is planning to roll out a new livery? Now would be the time to do it, with 100 buses on order, possibly more coming in, plus a few hundred getting completely overhauled. Of course it is the most sensible time to start re-livery, so they'll probably wait until a year after all the buses have been freshly repainted, then re-livery and repaint again. The last time they did it was approximately 1988, when it became fairly apparent that MAN was gone and the firms that were left (primarily whoever provided the RTS and Flxible) were providing base white buses. In any event, the specs for the 425 or whatever new ones call for a white base coat, and vinyl decals conforming to current practice (page 140). So, the answer seems to be no. In that Kevin indicated some buses meeting BRT specs, maybe something different for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 It looks like another order of buses is in the works... The Chicago Transit Authority is giving its fleet of buses a half a billion dollar overhaul. It will involve both purchasing new buses and rehabbing some buses currently in service. "Today we are announcing within the next two years, the CTAwill have an entirely new bus fleet thanks to the most ambitious bus replacement and corporate rebuilding project in CTA history," said CTA President Forrest Claypool during a news conference Friday. "As part of this initiative, a (purchase order) is being issued this morning for the purchase of 425 new buses." The CTA recently purchased 100 new buses. It will purchase another 425. They're a mix of hybrid and clean diesel buses. They're modern and provide a smoother ride for passengers with more seating. The CTA will also rebuild more than 1,000 other buses, essentially creating an entire new fleet of 1,500 buses. The project will be paid for with sales tax dollars. Full Story here Looks like the 1,050 New Flyer D40LF & DE40LF fleet are going to start mid-lifes soon. This might also include the New Flyer DE60LF's. And looks like the 100 DE60LFR and D60LFR's are not the only new buses coming soon, but another 425 New Flyer DELFR and DLFR models. It doesn't mention if they'll all be 60' or if it'll be a mix of 40' and 60' buses. I wonder if the Optimas will be part of this rehab, or will they be retired early. Whoever gets the contract, it's 100 artics and 325 standard 40 foot buses according to the WGN/Tribune news story first linked by Busjack in reporting this and thinking it suspicious that CTA suddenly saying it has money to get new buses to not only finish out retirements of the Novas but get rid of the Optimas. Not only did it also raise my eyebrows about them being able to get new buses on their own without piggybacking another transit authority's order, but I was surprised to read that they were admitting their experiment in operating 30 foot buses didn't pan out. My question on that is did they use other funding sources than FTA funds for the Optimas that would allow them to phase them out before 12 years? Sorry, I don't remember how it was said they got the Optimas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
See Tea Eh Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 I don't know for certain, but the rules may be different for 30-foot buses than for 40-foot buses. I know MCTS's 30-footers (Gillig Spirits and D30LFs of two different series) didn't last 12 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 Whoever gets the contract, it's 100 artics and 325 standard 40 foot buses according to the WGN/Tribune news story first linked by Busjack in reporting this and thinking it suspicious that CTA suddenly saying it has money to get new buses to not only finish out retirements of the Novas but get rid of the Optimas. Not only did it also raise my eyebrows about them being able to get new buses on their own without piggybacking another transit authority's order, but I was surprised to read that they were admitting their experiment in operating 30 foot buses didn't pan out. My question on that is did they use other funding sources than FTA funds for the Optimas that would allow them to phase them out before 12 years? Sorry, I don't remember how it was said they got the Optimas. Dick Winston indicated that the first Optimas were received on Sept. 6, 2006. Altoona says that the Optima Opus was submitted under the 12 year category. The questions are when they actually will be phased out, as it probably will take 18 months to get anything on a new requisition. While federal money to buy them may be an issue, it probably isn't if local money is going to be used to replace them, and maybe there is a secondary market in this case. (I am thinking again of the comparison of NYC paying local funds to get rid of the Grummans, and NJ eventually buying them). For that matter, if EasyGo goes out of business as indicated, the Northwest Indiana Regional Planning Commission is going to have 7 Optimas of 9 or 10 years of age that it won't be using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 I don't know for certain, but the rules may be different for 30-foot buses than for 40-foot buses. I know MCTS's 30-footers (Gillig Spirits and D30LFs of two different series) didn't last 12 years. See above that the Optima Opus was classified as a 12 year bus. On the other hand the Eldorado Transmark was classified as a 10 year bus, and Pace got rid of them as soon as possible when the 10 years were up. Altoona has a test of a Giilig Spirit in 1990, but the file doesn't say much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 This list I put up leads me to a question. If the first Novas were received in Dec 2000 and as stated by the CTA the new artics arrive in the fall, then technically wouldn't there be a problem retiring buses that are not yet 12 years old.... Aside from any debate about the exact minute when any given Nova hits 12 years old, the later revelation that CTA has to institute express shuttle bus service to cover for the closed Red Line indicates the real reason why CTA was so eager to exercise this option--they need the buses for that service. Just the same as why Huberman covered up the real reason why CTA just then had to acquire the options for 4000-4149 from Seattle. It is not clear how this delivery schedule interacts with the need for the additional buses, but if anyone is laying odds at the moment--there won't be any significant Nova retirements through the first three quarters of 2013. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 Aside from any debate about the exact minute when any given Nova hits 12 years old, the later revelation that CTA has to institute express shuttle bus service to cover for the closed Red Line indicates the real reason why CTA was so eager to exercise this option--they need the buses for that service. Just the same as why Huberman covered up the real reason why CTA just then had to acquire the options for 4000-4149 from Seattle. It is not clear how this delivery schedule interacts with the need for the additional buses, but if anyone is laying odds at the moment--there won't be any significant Nova retirements through the first three quarters of 2013. Thanks for clarifying a bit on how they may be getting around that sticking point of phasing out the Optimas since even with the 18 month window to get things rolling on getting new buses on a new requisition they still would be getting rid of these buses long before the 2018 minimum retirement date if they were to replace them with federal money. And I was leaning more to if they would have to cross that sticking point of these buses coming completely out of revenue service anywhere before 2018 if indeed they got paid for in part with federal money. And your point of them needing buses to run those five Dan Ryan bus shuttles brings up the point I was making on the Dan Ryan project thread of CTA having no credible history in building public trust given although they are making this public a year ahead of time, they knew they were going to attempt going ahead with this plan months ago. In addition while they gave lip service that they weighed alternatives to a complete shutdown, they do not give any indication they held public meetings with riders affected by this project before making this decision and springing it on the public with a take it or leave it attitude regardless of the start date being next year. Point being, the project may well be needed as much as they say but the way they handled the delivery leaves a lot to be desired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam92 Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 The trib reports that 100 buses are going to be set aside for shuttles/express during the Dan Ryan shutdown. I get the feeling that 77th is going to be the main garage running shuttle service and any new deliveries and shuffles will be aimed at bringing 77th around 100 artics seeing as it's the closest garage with space for another 200 buses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 The trib reports that 100 buses are going to be set aside for shuttles/express during the Dan Ryan shutdown. I get the feeling that 77th is going to be the main garage running shuttle service and any new deliveries and shuffles will be aimed at bringing 77th around 100 artics seeing as it's the closest garage with space for another 200 buses Makes sense. Either that or clear out some of the junk behind 103rd. But I am implying that the 100 buses for the shuttle and the 100 new buses are one and the same (i.e. even if there are bus shifts, 200 buses are not going to materialize in 2013). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam92 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Makes sense. Either that or clear out some of the junk behind 103rd. But I am implying that the 100 buses for the shuttle and the 100 new buses are one and the same (i.e. even if there are bus shifts, 200 buses are not going to materialize in 2013). With both the deliveries for the Seattle deal and the 425 bus contract both later this year there might be around 80 by the time the project starts. Weather it goes straight to 77th or shuffled between Kedzie, NP,103rd and 77th is the question. Also it looks like 103rd has room for 50 more buses at the most even if the NABIs are cleared. The area those are stored in dont seem like a place for in service equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
See Tea Eh Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 With both the deliveries for the Seattle deal and the 425 bus contract both later this year there might be around 80 by the time the project starts. Weather it goes straight to 77th or shuffled between Kedzie, NP,103rd and 77th is the question. Also it looks like 103rd has room for 50 more buses at the most even if the NABIs are cleared. The area those are stored in dont seem like a place for in service equipment. The Seattle order will start later this year, but they haven't even taken bids for the 425-bus order (they just put out the RFP a few days ago), so I'd say it's unlikely that you'd start to see deliveries of both by the end of the year. If New Flyer gets the order for the 425, then I figure it's most likely that they would just tack on production of the next 100 artics to the back of the order for the current 100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam92 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 The Seattle order will start later this year, but they haven't even taken bids for the 425-bus order (they just put out the RFP a few days ago), so I'd say it's unlikely that you'd start to see deliveries of both by the end of the year. If New Flyer gets the order for the 425, then I figure it's most likely that they would just tack on production of the next 100 artics to the back of the order for the current 100. News sources say that both orders will start later this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 News sources say that both orders will start later this year Probably not likely, though. The proposal due date is Aug. 22. If, like the 900 bus order, there are trivial addenda, that would set it back two months. The bids have to be evaluated, and then the board has to approve (I mean rubber stamp) the selection. The earliest that can be after the original due date is Oct. 10, maybe Nov. 14. The request for proposals also says that the bidder has to show them its production book, although it may be marked confidential. Thus, unless NF doesn't have anything else in its book, and is again willing to jump the gun (especially now that there is a potential competitor), I don't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwantae Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 News sources say that both orders will start later this year So the 425 order will be by NF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 So the 425 order will be by NF? In that this was put out to competitive bids, due August 22, 2012, no, that hasn't been determined yet, unless this is as fixed as the Miss USA pageant was alleged to be by Miss Pennsylvania. And even if that is the case, the Tribune will be on CTA's back. Read my prior post above. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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