Bus garage refurbishment

[Busjack]

which is why we won't be seeing artics there. Now that they built those homes east of the garage, they couldn't close Armstrong if they wanted to for a garage expansion. (Weird they have a public street bisecting the garage anyway) If they ever rebuilt the garage it would have to be done elsewhere. The only spot I could think of would be the state owned land around Read mental, but that has been slowly disappearing and it's probably not valid anymore.

Since others claim that this is not garage relocation, the only question would be is that since SEVEN garages are to be overhauled, whether the overhaul does involve either rearranging the shop equipment in a more efficient manner or expanding into the north yard, since, as you note, Armstrong Ave. is a public street leading into the housing development.

I'm surprised that some leaker hasn't already posted the plans for the 7 garages, especially since the consensus here is that CTA can't do what Claypool claims, including having storage space for the increasing fleet of 60 foot buses. Maybe it can't. At least 5750 has been in that facility; I wonder if it is now any different than as depicted in Krambles's book when a bunch of 5000 series propanes were on the lifts.

[sw4400]

Since others claim that this is not garage relocation, the only question would be is that since SEVEN garages are to be overhauled, whether the overhaul does involve either rearranging the shop equipment in a more efficient manner or expanding into the north yard...

Please take the time to read this quote from this Press Release

Rehabilitation of the bus maintenance and repair facilities will begin in early-2013 and continue through 2015. Work will include the repair or replacement of critical maintenance systems, including bus fueling/servicing facilities, bus hoists, inspection pits and wash racks; expansion of the South Shops heavy maintenance facility to accommodate the increased number of articulated buses in the fleet...

If you see anything in this quote or the actual press release that states otherwise, enlighten us... because the only thing I see is Chicago, North Park, Forest Glen, Kedzie, 74th, 77th and 103rd will be upgraded with modern equipment... the only one planned for expansion is South Shops. The fleet of articulateds will increase from 208 to 308, which can be split between North Park, Kedzie, 77th & 103rd.

I'm surprised that some leaker hasn't already posted the plans for the 7 garages, especially since the consensus here is that CTA can't do what Claypool claims, including having storage space for the increasing fleet of 60 foot buses. Maybe it can't. At least 5750 has been in that facility; I wonder if it is now any different than as depicted in Krambles's book when a bunch of 5000 series propanes were on the lifts.

You don't need to be in the facility or be a leaker when it comes directly from the Press Release... but I guess you don't read these... you just go on your own consensus. On another note... the Press Release states for the 5000's, the Red Line will get them next, followed by the Orange, Yellow and Purple Lines as quoted from the Chicago-L.org 5000-series page.

[jajuan]

The fleet of articulateds will increase from 208 to 308, which can be split between North Park, Kedzie, 77th & 103rd.

You're off by at about 100 since it's been reported that beyond the 100 articulateds that CTA is getting within the next year by again piggybacking a Seattle Metro option, part of the sliding number of 425-450 buses it's planning on getting using non-federal sources including its sales tax dollars is a sliding number of artics that could theoretically be about 100 in number if that came to be the agreed upon number out of the total number of buses to be ordered. You can't keep forgetting or willfully ignoring that 400 plus purchase plan is going out or will go out on RFP for a mixed bid of both 40 foot standard length buses AND 60 foot artics. And with the final artic count being theoretically possible to be 400 plus and not a little over 300 as you are stuck on concluding, no it's not possible to see all artics when the final tallies are done after these near future orders are complete concentrated and only assigned at North Park, Kedzie, 77th and 103rd. And that's especially considering that North Park already has HALF the current number of artics on hand and Kedzie already being at an adequate number to cover its runs it does in part or in entirety on 125, 134, 145, 148, 151 and 156 along with full artic weekend coverage on the 12. And given that the 12 and 151 are the only regular (non seasonal and/or non peak only) routes with artics that Kedzie does assigned runs on the weekends, it makes no sense to add on even more artics that won't get used at all or won't get used efficiently because the rest of the routes at Kedzie do operate rather efficiently on the weekend using 40 foot buses.

[Busjack]

Please take the time to read this quote from this Press Release

Rehabilitation of the bus maintenance and repair facilities will begin in early-2013 and continue through 2015. Work will include the repair or replacement of critical maintenance systems, including bus fueling/servicing facilities, bus hoists, inspection pits and wash racks; expansion of the South Shops heavy maintenance facility to accommodate the increased number of articulated buses in the fleet...

If you see anything in this quote or the actual press release that states otherwise, enlighten us

As I said before, I don't need you to read the press release for me.

However, you seem unable to read this part, which I quoted (via the Sun Times) from it at the top of the thread:

"Conditions at some of these facilities are so poor that we have to use extra staff to make up for the inadequate equipment that can neither support more modern vehicles nor accommodate the space needed for the increasing number of 60-foot buses we're adding to the fleet," said Claypool.

Work on your own reading comprehension.

[Guest]

which is why we won't be seeing artics there. Now that they built those homes east of the garage, they couldn't close Armstrong if they wanted to for a garage expansion. (Weird they have a public street bisecting the garage anyway) If they ever rebuilt the garage it would have to be done elsewhere. The only spot I could think of would be the state owned land around Read mental, but that has been slowly disappearing and it's probably not valid anymore.

I remember hearing some talk as far back as 2000 that they had plans to construct a new bus storage facility at Irving Pk./Oak Park. replacing FG, but Im sure those plans/rumors have since been squashed. With the far northwest side and its dense popluation, busy, working class residential neighborhoods, I dont see too many options for relocating FG. It would be a long, noisy, difficult process. FG will have to stay right where it is unless otherwise. With the new residential construction popping up just east of the yard along Armstrong, CTA might have a "no win" situation fight on their hands where they could be pressured into closing or relocating the garage. More residents, some Im sure with small children breathing diesel exhaust on occasions wouldnt want to see, hear or smell idling diesel engines all day or night. I personally just think the idea of CTA increasing the number of articulated buses to its fleet and phasing out standard size 40 footers are going to create more issues for the agency than it can solve as far as storage and maintenance. Not to mention some streets in this city are not adequate to accommodate longer, larger size buses. As an experineced articulated bus operator, I feel IMO, the accident rate will increase as artics present more challenges for operators. CTA will certainly need to emphasize more on training.

[Sam92]

You're off by at about 100 since it's been reported that beyond the 100 articulateds that CTA is getting within the next year by again piggybacking a Seattle Metro option, part of the sliding number of 425-450 buses it's planning on getting using non-federal sources including its sales tax dollars is a sliding number of artics that could theoretically be about 100 in number if that came to be the agreed upon number out of the total number of buses to be ordered. You can't keep forgetting or willfully ignoring that 400 plus purchase plan is going out or will go out on RFP for a mixed bid of both 40 foot standard length buses AND 60 foot artics. And with the final artic count being theoretically possible to be 400 plus and not a little over 300 as you are stuck on concluding, no it's not possible to see all artics when the final tallies are done after these near future orders are complete concentrated and only assigned at North Park, Kedzie, 77th and 103rd. And that's especially considering that North Park already has HALF the current number of artics on hand and Kedzie already being at an adequate number to cover its runs it does in part or in entirety on 125, 134, 145, 148, 151 and 156 along with full artic weekend coverage on the 12. And given that the 12 and 151 are the only regular (non seasonal and/or non peak only) routes with artics that Kedzie does assigned runs on the weekends, it makes no sense to add on even more artics that won't get used at all or won't get used efficiently because the rest of the routes at Kedzie do operate rather efficiently on the weekend using 40 foot buses.

I've seen the 125 get bumped down to regular 40 ft buses since about January...77th has room to store 100 artics like NP and may have the demand seeing as a lot of the Top 10 routes are at 77th (79th being #1). 79th practically has to run every 5 min on Sundays at some points

[Busjack]

With the new residential construction popping up just east of the yard along Armstrong, CTA might have a "no win" situation fight on their hands where they could be pressured into closing or relocating the garage. More residents, some Im sure with small children breathing diesel exhaust on occasions wouldnt want to see, hear or smell idling diesel engines all day or night.

This seems similar to the "you moved there after it was already there" problem, which also comes up with respect to the neighbors of Midway Airport. While the residents have to use Armstrong Ave. to access the development, the development itself seems like an isolated island between the industrial area and the Metra tracks (and I have walked it).

CTA has already said that it has made concessions to the neighbors of the outdoor facilities by cutting down overnight idling through use of preheaters, capacitors, and the like.

I personally just think the idea of CTA increasing the number of articulated buses to its fleet and phasing out standard size 40 footers are going to create more issues for the agency than it can solve as far as storage and maintenance. Not to mention some streets in this city are not adequate to accommodate longer, larger size buses. As an experineced articulated bus operator, I feel IMO, the accident rate will increase as artics present more challenges for operators. CTA will certainly need to emphasize more on training.

I can't argue with that. However, as pudgym indicated today, something has to be done about the lack of capacity on Belmont and Lawrence.

[jajuan]

I've seen the 125 get bumped down to regular 40 ft buses since about January...77th has room to store 100 artics like NP and may have the demand seeing as a lot of the Top 10 routes are at 77th (79th being #1). 79th practically has to run every 5 min on Sundays at some points

Not always and a lot of times it's a run that's not a Kedzie bus. Just these past couple weeks 125s I've seen were artics. But that's getting off the central point I was making of CTA essentially doubling the number of artics on hand if everything goes to plan and not stopping at just over 300 as sw keeps sticking to saying and the storage and maintenance issues that come into play.

[artthouwill]

Please take the time to read this quote from this Press Release

Rehabilitation of the bus maintenance and repair facilities will begin in early-2013 and continue through 2015. Work will include the repair or replacement of critical maintenance systems, including bus fueling/servicing facilities, bus hoists, inspection pits and wash racks; expansion of the South Shops heavy maintenance facility to accommodate the increased number of articulated buses in the fleet...

If you see anything in this quote or the actual press release that states otherwise, enlighten us... because the only thing I see is Chicago, North Park, Forest Glen, Kedzie, 74th, 77th and 103rd will be upgraded with modern equipment... the only one planned for expansion is South Shops. The fleet of articulateds will increase from 208 to 308, which can be split between North Park, Kedzie, 77th & 103rd.

You don't need to be in the facility or be a leaker when it comes directly from the Press Release... but I guess you don't read these... you just go on your own consensus. On another note... the Press Release states for the 5000's, the Red Line will get them next, followed by the Orange, Yellow and Purple Lines as quoted from the Chicago-L.org 5000-series page.

Concerning your other note, Claypool stated at the first Rrd Line shutdown hearing that the Red Line would not get the new cars until AFTER the construction, if the construction were to last over 4 years by doing weekends only, they would have to continue to run old equipment there. This

Is what he has said and this was what was printed on their handouts. They have contradicted the press release.

[Sam92]

Not always and a lot of times it's a run that's not a Kedzie bus. Just these past couple weeks 125s I've seen were artics. But that's getting off the central point I was making of CTA essentially doubling the number of artics on hand if everything goes to plan and not stopping at just over 300 as sw keeps sticking to saying and the storage and maintenance issues that come into play.

Right. I meant bumped down as in not 100% attic from Kedzie like it used to. As far as the storage, 77th has ample space , plus the first 70 artics that come in can knock out the oldest Novas based at 77th (6400-6470)

[jajuan]

Right. I meant bumped down as in not 100% attic from Kedzie like it used to. As far as the storage, 77th has ample space , plus the first 70 artics that come in can knock out the oldest Novas based at 77th (6400-6470)

Then what routes would you be using them efficiently on with 77th having that many? Outside of 3, 4, and 79, 77th isn't exactly overflowing with busy routes with buses overflowing and crammed to the gills since a number of its routes and/or runs went to 103rd to make route for former Archer routes. 79 seems to be the one always crowded while 3 and 4 hit those conditions in the rush periods.

[Busjack]

Then what routes would you be using them efficiently on with 77th having that many? Outside of 3, 4, and 79, 77th isn't exactly overflowing with busy routes with buses overflowing and crammed to the gills since a number of its routes and/or runs went to 103rd to make route for former Archer routes. 79 seems to be the one always crowded while 3 and 4 hit those conditions in the rush periods.

Some, like 29, went to 103rd in the big reorganization moving routes to more southerly garages, which predated Archer closing by 2 years.

Still not clear is why 77th was limited to 250 buses (approx.) while other garages' rosters were built up to 250, or why it lost its 4000s and Route 6 in the post-Archer moves. Also, we have discussed plenty of other routes that could use a 60 foot bus as a Nova replacement (9, 49, 77, 81) and why that had been pooh-poohed due to current constraints at the assigned garages. 87 also used to run NABI artics out of 77th, in addition to the routes you listed. I suppose that 8 could be given artics and assigned to 77th (where it was at one time, split with Limits).

Like I have said before, I have my hunches based on the "rails in the pavement at 77th," "storage for the increasing number of 60-foot buses," and "200 more artics" statements cited earlier, but I'll stop at that until someone leaks the plans. Also, while some have indicated a reason why 14 might get the LFRs, moving its 4000s elsewhere, I don't think anyone has indicated why the LSD express routes need more artics.

[Sam92]

Then what routes would you be using them efficiently on with 77th having that many? Outside of 3, 4, and 79, 77th isn't exactly overflowing with busy routes with buses overflowing and crammed to the gills since a number of its routes and/or runs went to 103rd to make route for former Archer routes. 79 seems to be the one always crowded while 3 and 4 hit those conditions in the rush periods.

Well, for one, all three of those routes you named each use about 30 buses a piece. Also thinking back to my high school days the 3 and 35 do school runs for CMA-B as well as Dunbar and King for the 4. And there's also 87 as well

[jajuan]

Well, for one, all three of those routes you named each use about 30 buses a piece. Also thinking back to my high school days the 3 and 35 do school runs for CMA-B as well as Dunbar and King for the 4. And there's also 87 as well

And my question was where would you use them efficiently? Having ridden all three I made note that the 79 is the only one out of the three that seems to be always busy and crowded regardless of time and day outside of late night and overnight periods. The 3 and 4 from what I observe only get busy like that in the brunt of the weekday rush hour periods. The ridership patterns aren't as such that you would need an all day artic coverage like you see on say a 6, 14 or 147 to name a few routes that use almost all artics everyday that they are in operation. THe point I'm making is yeah in the rush you may need more artics on those three and maybe the 87. Kedzie after all gets by with just under 60 artics and it uses it's artics on a lot more routes than 77th currently has assigned that may warrant some artic use to varying degrees. Yeah 77 may need artics but it doesn't neeed 70 for efficient use where they wouldn't be operating terminal to terminal for extended periods half empty at best. Even when that garage had the 6 on its rosters and the NABIs were still running, it didn't have 70 artics. No where near that. At best it had 25-35, with the lowest count at one time after the NABIs got pulled being about 20, and still managed to do artic runs on the 3 and 4 while fully covering the 6 with them. And before you make the point that the artic split was between 4 garages instead of the current 3, I remind you that Kedzie and 103rd held similar artic counts then as they do now. So the only difference now is North Park currently has a surplus over that time numbering what in that time 77th was allotted, being that North Park then averaged 70-80 something artics compared to averaging 100 to 105 of them today.

[MetroShadow]

Well, for one, all three of those routes you named each use about 30 buses a piece. Also thinking back to my high school days the 3 and 35 do school runs for CMA-B as well as Dunbar and King for the 4. And there's also 87 as well

And by that logic, I'd argue for 49, 66, 70, and 72 needing artics for their routes also (Payton, Clemente, Prosser, Noble, Lane, et. al). Question is, which routes outside of rush hours need artics? That list tends to whittle itself down to only a handful.

[Busjack]

And by that logic, I'd argue for 49, 66, 70, and 72 needing artics for their routes also (Payton, Clemente, Prosser, Noble, Lane, et. al). Question is, which routes outside of rush hours need artics? That list tends to whittle itself down to only a handful.

The Ridership Report indicates that those (other than 70) could use them anyway, as well as the ones I cited earlier. 70 could have one diverted from 65 or 66 for the school run.

One would think that CTA had something in mind when it definitely ordered 100 (although, as I previously said initially for the Dan Ryan Red Line project) and has a solicitation for approximately another 100 to replace Novas 1 for 1, but Huberman fooled us before.

[Sam92]

And my question was where would you use them efficiently? Having ridden all three I made note that the 79 is the only one out of the three that seems to be always busy and crowded regardless of time and day outside of late night and overnight periods. The 3 and 4 from what I observe only get busy like that in the brunt of the weekday rush hour periods. The ridership patterns aren't as such that you would need an all day artic coverage like you see on say a 6, 14 or 147 to name a few routes that use almost all artics everyday that they are in operation. THe point I'm making is yeah in the rush you may need more artics on those three and maybe the 87. Kedzie after all gets by with just under 60 artics and it uses it's artics on a lot more routes than 77th currently has assigned that may warrant some artic use to varying degrees. Yeah 77 may need artics but it doesn't neeed 70 for efficient use where they wouldn't be operating terminal to terminal for extended periods half empty at best. Even when that garage had the 6 on its rosters and the NABIs were still running, it didn't have 70 artics. No where near that. At best it had 25-35, with the lowest count at one time after the NABIs got pulled being about 20, and still managed to do artic runs on the 3 and 4 while fully covering the 6 with them. And before you make the point that the artic split was between 4 garages instead of the current 3, I remind you that Kedzie and 103rd held similar artic counts then as they do now. So the only difference now is North Park currently has a surplus over that time numbering what in that time 77th was allotted, being that North Park then averaged 70-80 something artics compared to averaging 100 to 105 of them today.

Kedzie is in the same boat as its artics are mostly on rush hour only routes. Yet on weekends they run empty on the 12 and NP doesn't have that much ridership on the 22. As if they need them heavily in the week but other times have no choice but to run them the way they do... plus like I said 77th is the only place left with a lot of room.

[Sam92]

And by that logic, I'd argue for 49, 66, 70, and 72 needing artics for their routes also (Payton, Clemente, Prosser, Noble, Lane, et. al). Question is, which routes outside of rush hours need artics? That list tends to whittle itself down to only a handful.

The schools weren't my main point of focus. I was just pointing out they could pull out an artic for that 35 that waits outside of CMA going west and the southbound 3

And ironically the 49, 66, and 72 could use artic action regardless :P

[ChicagoNova]

Kedzie is in the same boat as its artics are mostly on rush hour only routes. Yet on weekends they run empty on the 12 and NP doesn't have that much ridership on the 22. As if they need them heavily in the week but other times have no choice but to run them the way they do... plus like I said 77th is the only place left with a lot of room.

I would think that Kedzie would need more artics to satisfy #12, and North Park to satisfy #22. Additionally, I notice that North Park supplies #148 in the morning with 40 footers instead of artics.

[jajuan]

Kedzie is in the same boat as its artics are mostly on rush hour only routes. Yet on weekends they run empty on the 12 and NP doesn't have that much ridership on the 22. As if they need them heavily in the week but other times have no choice but to run them the way they do... plus like I said 77th is the only place left with a lot of room.

Actually during the day hours on weekends, the artics on the 12 aren't all that empty. And as it gets closer to evening they've been swapping the artics for 1000s to cover the route. And it's not quite accurate that the Kedzie artics get used main on rush only routes. Yeah the 125, 134 and 148 rush only and Kedzie does run artics on them. But Kedzie also runs them on the 7 occasionally on one or two runs, sometimes on weekday trips of the 12, and most of its runs of the 145, 151, and 156.

[jajuan]

I would think that Kedzie would need more artics to satisfy #12, and North Park to satisfy #22. Additionally, I notice that North Park supplies #148 in the morning with 40 footers instead of artics.

From what I see of the 12, it's the weekend trips that need them more though you will see artics occasionally on the 12 in some rush hour trips. And at just over 100 artics North Park doesn't need more. The 22 gets some heavy artic coverage currently with the only times I see heavy 40 foot use being mainly in the weekday midday and part of the PM rush. Believe it or not the 148 morning trips need artics far less than the afternoon trips which is why 40 footers are used in the morning and artics the afternoons with this route. In the mornings, the 148 picks up mainly after along Clarendon and by the time it gets to Irving Park and Marine, it may have standees but not to the point of qualifying as crammed to the gills. But coming out of downtown in the afternoons is a totally different story.

[sht6131]

Actually during the day hours on weekends, the artics on the 12 aren't all that empty. And as it gets closer to evening they've been swapping the artics for 1000s to cover the route. And it's not quite accurate that the Kedzie artics get used main on rush only routes. Yeah the 125, 134 and 148 rush only and Kedzie does run artics on them. But Kedzie also runs them on the 7 occasionally on one or two runs, sometimes on weekday trips of the 12, and most of its runs of the 145, 151, and 156.

Kedzie was running Artics on 82 for some time and than it stopped. Anybody know why? Could have Lincolnwoood towncenter kicked them out?

[sht6131]

Kedzie was running Artics on 82 for some time and than it stopped. Anybody know why? Could have Lincolnwoood towncenter kicked them out?

Regarding the previous post, I meant weekend Artics. Sorry

[jajuan]

I remember someone mentioning Kedzie needing them more downtown for the special events routes serving the United Center and Soldier Field. Plus I've been seeing them use them more for the 151 since then. But I don't think there has been a reason given outside of that.

[sht6131]

I remember someone mentioning Kedzie needing them more downtown for the special events routes serving the United Center and Soldier Field. Plus I've been seeing them use them more for the 151 since then. But I don't think there has been a reason given outside of that.

Thanks