2012 40'/60' Procurement

[Busjack]

... But I think the CTA might err on the side of caution after the NABI fiasco when they bought 60' buses in 2003, when NABI was just starting to come into the articulated market(wiki source). The LFS articulated bus has only been around for four years(2009, wiki source, as opposed to the New Flyer 60LF models, which have been around since 1995 and despite some model changes, have been pretty much the same design(wiki source). I would look for the CTA to award any future articulated contracts to New Flyer, at least for a couple more years until they see how the Nova Articulateds age in the markets they are in over time.

....

The difference was that NABI made only one articulated bus before getting the CTA order, and the Altoona testing indicated that that particular bus wasn't so good.

Nova has been making buses for about 18 years, and if there were a problem with the frames or workmanship, CTA would have known by now.

The specifications on each manufacturer's site indicate that both use the same Allison and BAE systems.

If you want to make an argument about experience in making a particular model, the portion of the Q&A I posted after you asked "who knows" indicated an XD60, so that isn't any older than what Nova has.

There might be an argument that with 308 NFs, maybe CTA doesn't want 50 of something that is different, but other than the body design, it is not going to be that different if it is a Nova.

[sw4400]

Here's a preview of the Nova LFS Smart Bus model coming soon... picture. It would be interesting to see if the front door is the one it comes with on ours.

[Busjack]

Here's a preview of the Nova LFS Smart Bus model coming soon... picture. It would be interesting to see if the front door is the one it comes with on ours.

Doubt it. No indication that CTA has ever gone for the CitiView style of window and door (as in Pace 6377+), although the uneven split door raises an interesting question.

[geneking7320]

What is the advantage of that type of front door vs the type on CTA's present Novas.

Also, how many of Nova's customers have ordered the unequal width doors?

[sw4400]

What is the advantage of that type of front door vs the type on CTA's present Novas.

Also, how many of Nova's customers have ordered the unequal width doors?

None. The width of the doorway is the same, it's just an aesthetic door design Nova uses on their LFS Smart Buses. It's like the LFR models New Flyer has... they're the same as the LF models, just redesigned for a more modern look.

That I couldn't tell you... I think the LFS Smart Bus was just recently created by NovaBus in 2012 or perhaps early 2013 to replace the LFS. Think of the LFS Smart Bus as Novas version of the New Flyer LFR or Xcelsior bus.

[Busjack]

None. The width of the doorway is the same, it's just an aesthetic door design Nova uses on their LFS Smart Buses. It's like the LFR models New Flyer has... they're the same as the LF models, just redesigned for a more modern look.

I don't see how an uneven front door is any more modern. Maybe it doesn't hit something in the entryway, but that's an unknown.

[See Tea Eh]

The Nova front door was redesigned a few years ago for Vancouver, which ordered a couple hundred (don't recall the year, maybe 2007 or 2008-ish).

Back in the 1990s, they had one Nova LFS as a test, and the drivers biggest complaint at the time was that the rear half of the front door was so far back that if passengers boarded on that side and had a flash pass, the drivers had to crane their necks too far behind them to actually see the passes (this is not an issue for systems with electronic fare media).

When they placed their large Nova order in the mid-to-late 2000s, the drivers insisted that something be done about the door, and the split door was the solution. With this design, the driver can choose to just open the front 2/3 door, which is more or less the same width as a normal front door on other buses (such as a New Flyer). This makes it easier for drivers observing passengers boarding with paper flash-pass fare media. If the ramp needs to go out, or if they want to for other reasons, they can open the rear 1/3 door for a full-width doorway.

[jajuan]

And since CTA has been using some form of electronic fare media for about two decades, it's doubtful that they would need the uneven door design as shown in the picture that sw linked.

[Busjack]

And since CTA has been using some form of electronic fare media for about two decades, it's doubtful that they would need the uneven door design as shown in the picture that sw linked.

Also, unlikely that they would spec a different door opening handle, as it would need at least one additional position.

[jajuan]

Also, unlikely that they would spec a different door opening handle, as it would need at least one additional position.

Yes sounds like it's more for Canadian based TAs and American ones that have yet to switch to some form of electronic fare media format.

[geneking7320]

And since CTA has been using some form of electronic fare media for about two decades, it's doubtful that they would need the uneven door design as shown in the picture that sw linked.

IMHO if only one person at a time is using the front door maybe the Nova front doorway is too wide.

[Busjack]

IMHO if only one person at a time is using the front door maybe the Nova front doorway is too wide.

Sort of gets back to the "Go Lane" seemed to make sense from a passenger stand point, and, unless there was some reason relating to the driver not being able to confirm whether a passenger got charged, I didn't see the reason for abolishing it.

Obviously, all buses now have to have wide enough doors to accommodate a scooter on the ramp.

[sw4400]

While it seems that we'll have to wait for the Nova LFS prototype to come in for our first looks, another prototype is absent from our rosters... the New Flyer XE40, which should've been here by now. Even Kevin's report on the news page mentioned so...

CTA Awards Electric Bus Contract to New Flyer 13 June 2012

- By Kevin Zolkiewicz

The Chicago Transit Board this morning awarded a $2.5 million contract for the purchase of two battery-electric buses to New Flyer. The purchase was made possible by a federal grant. CTA will use the buses for the agency’s first-ever in-service test of battery-electric powered vehicles. The propulsion system for the buses will be built by Siemens and will be powered with lithium-ion polymer batteries. The buses will be required to travel up to 100-miles on a single charge. Arrival of the battery-electric buses is scheduled for late 2013.

Here it is... December 7, 2013. Pretty late into the 2013 calendar year and no sign or announcement regarding these two test buses. Wonder what's going on with them...

[Busjack]

While it seems that we'll have to wait for the Nova LFS prototype to come in for our first looks, another prototype is absent from our rosters... the New Flyer XE40, which should've been here by now. Even Kevin's report on the news page mentioned so...

CTA Awards Electric Bus Contract to New Flyer 13 June 2012

- By Kevin Zolkiewicz

The Chicago Transit Board this morning awarded a $2.5 million contract for the purchase of two battery-electric buses to New Flyer. The purchase was made possible by a federal grant. CTA will use the buses for the agency’s first-ever in-service test of battery-electric powered vehicles. The propulsion system for the buses will be built by Siemens and will be powered with lithium-ion polymer batteries. The buses will be required to travel up to 100-miles on a single charge. Arrival of the battery-electric buses is scheduled for late 2013.

Here it is... December 7, 2013. Pretty late into the 2013 calendar year and no sign or announcement regarding these two test buses. Wonder what's going on with them...

Somebody said the first bus was on the line. So, unless you are at St. Cloud...............

[sw4400]

Somebody said the first bus was on the line. So, unless you are at St. Cloud...............

Just saying there technically is only two weeks on the 2013 calendar year. I doubt either Nova Bus, New Flyer, or even Bombardier will be shipping/delivering equipment during the week of Christmas and New Years as they'll have minimal staff for the Holiday Season most likely.

[sw4400]

Well, with the Holiday weeks coming up in both the U.S and Canada, it appears like the Nova Smart Bus prototype and the New Flyer XE40 buses will not be coming in until 2014. That's a disappointment as both were slated to be here in 2013.

[BusHunter]

At least we know what the Freedman seats will look like on the Nova buses. http://chi.streetsblog.org/2013/01/30/rahm-brt-gives-you-a-strategic-advantage-in-creating-jobs/#more-80013

Maybe we should be asking the Plattsburg residents, if they saw a CTA bus travel the city streets lately. http://www.wptz.com/news/vermont-new-york/plattsburgh/NYC-metro-bus-navigates-Plattsburgh-streets/-/9277622/17662238/-/14840em/-/index.html

(Actually that's kind of an interesting story that shows the inspection process the buses go through before they leave the Nova Bus plant.)

[sw4400]

At least we know what the Freedman seats will look like on the Nova buses. http://chi.streetsblog.org/2013/01/30/rahm-brt-gives-you-a-strategic-advantage-in-creating-jobs/#more-80013

Maybe we should be asking the Plattsburg residents, if they saw a CTA bus travel the city streets lately. http://www.wptz.com/news/vermont-new-york/plattsburgh/NYC-metro-bus-navigates-Plattsburgh-streets/-/9277622/17662238/-/14840em/-/index.html

(Actually that's kind of an interesting story that shows the inspection process the buses go through before they leave the Nova Bus plant.)

All we can do is wait, I guess. I contacted Nova directly and inquired about the Smart Bus, seeing when it'll be delivered and if they could post some sneak peeks via Facebook. They wouldn't divulge the information or photos, saying it's for CTA to announce it via Press Release and to release pics.

All we transit enthusiasts can do is wait....

[jajuan]

At least we know what the Freedman seats will look like on the Nova buses. http://chi.streetsblog.org/2013/01/30/rahm-brt-gives-you-a-strategic-advantage-in-creating-jobs/#more-80013

Maybe we should be asking the Plattsburg residents, if they saw a CTA bus travel the city streets lately. http://www.wptz.com/news/vermont-new-york/plattsburgh/NYC-metro-bus-navigates-Plattsburgh-streets/-/9277622/17662238/-/14840em/-/index.html

(Actually that's kind of an interesting story that shows the inspection process the buses go through before they leave the Nova Bus plant.)

I actually don't stop by the Streetblog site that much because that site such a warped view and biased view in getting BRT along Ashland at any cost regardless of how much it may inconvenience the surrounding community it's supposed to serve with the unrealistic view that left turns from Ashland can just be banned along a 17 mile stretch without causing a huge uproar and that Halsted, Damen, Western and even California are realistic alternatives if the left turn ban became reality. I pointed out the flaws in that that on that site's comment section too many times to count. But you're right about getting the extra view in what Nova buses currently go through in the inspection process before they get delivered to their respective TAs.

All we can do is wait, I guess. I contacted Nova directly and inquired about the Smart Bus, seeing when it'll be delivered and if they could post some sneak peeks via Facebook. They wouldn't divulge the information or photos, saying it's for CTA to announce it via Press Release and to release pics.

All we transit enthusiasts can do is wait....

You didn't think Nova was really going to give you a view of what the new CTA buses will look like before the CTA actually debuts a prototype in a press conference did you?

[sw4400]

You didn't think Nova was really going to give you a view of what the new CTA buses will look like before the CTA actually debuts a prototype in a press conference did you?

It was worth a try... Nova has posted photos of other Transit Agencies' buses around their delivery times on their Facebook page.

[jajuan]

It was worth a try... Nova has posted photos of other Transit Agencies' buses around their delivery times on their Facebook page.

True. But we we can't say that they've ever done so without those TAs at least giving a view to their own local riding constituencies first. Those pictures could very likely have been posted under the same premise that Nova directly communicated to you, namely the TA debuted a prototype model to its riding base first and then Nova posted pictures.

[jruff23]

I've just read article Saying That NovaBus Will Start Manufacturing The LFS smart bus for Cta next year. We'll in a couple of weeks. So with production starting in 2014 how long is the average time for manufacturing of a NovaBus. So should we be looking around February for the first bus.

[sw4400]

I've just read article Saying That NovaBus Will Start Manufacturing The LFS smart bus for Cta next year. We'll in a couple of weeks. So with production starting in 2014 how long is the average time for manufacturing of a NovaBus. So should we be looking around February for the first bus.

Well both they and New Flyer are behind. CTA info attained by Kevin said the prototype LFS and both New Flyer XE40's were supposed to be here late 2013, which only has 11 days remaining(being the next 11 are on Holiday weeks, I doubt the buses will show until January 2014 at the earliest).

Remember, New Flyer prototype #1000 was delivered November 8, 2005 with the rest starting delivery in January, 2006.

[sw4400]

This was discussed in the past about the New Flyer XE40 test buses proplusion systems being built by Siemens or ISE(I think they are the same). With the company in bankruptcy now(can't find the link for that either... I'm sure someone will link to it), I wonder if this might have an effect on the CTA getting these buses on time(they are behind schedule right now, due in late 2013 according to Kevin's news page) or even at all. New Flyer and CTA may have to put the project on hold until a new propulsion manufacturer can be found if Siemens/ISE can't come through.

With Nova due in February with the Smart Buses, I'm surprised the prototype didn't arrive early in case changes are needed to be made. I think that is the purpose of the prototypes arriving ahead of the rest, unless the CTA is confident that no changes are needed.

[Busjack]

This was discussed in the past about the New Flyer XE40 test buses proplusion systems being built by Siemens or ISE(I think they are the same). With the company in bankruptcy now(can't find the link for that either... I'm sure someone will link to it), I wonder if this might have an effect on the CTA getting these buses on time(they are behind schedule right now, due in late 2013 according to Kevin's news page) or even at all. New Flyer and CTA may have to put the project on hold until a new propulsion manufacturer can be found if Siemens/ISE can't come through.

With Nova due in February with the Smart Buses, I'm surprised the prototype didn't arrive early in case changes are needed to be made. I think that is the purpose of the prototypes arriving ahead of the rest, unless the CTA is confident that no changes are needed.

Siemens is not ISE. Don't disparage companies with which you are not familiar.

It looks like everything is delayed, and I'm sure that Frostbite Falls weather in St, Cloud, and foul driving conditions between there and here are not helping matters.