CTA Service Adjustments

[Busjack]

I don't think it was unclear communication. The Plaza owners have wanted CTA out for a long time. From what I've heard, the Plaza owners still refer to bus riders as 'those people'. After much hard work from CTA staff, The Plaza back tracked their decision.

The best I can tell from the (presumably before) Google Map and the statements in the upcoming alerts about not going south of 97th and Western, the current route is where the building used to be, so the owners had to clear it out, or maybe CTA got another loop, as reflected by the notation about not operating north of 98th on Campbell. Anyone heading out to scope that area???? That Google Map also shows a 95W/349 bus stop at 98th and Western, so obviously 95W is no longer stopping there.

As discussed in other contexts (such as turnarounds at Roosevelt-Monitor and 55th-St. Louis), CTA obviously needs an easement or license to use private property as a turnaround.

Also, to get back to last night's discussion with jajuan, I should have seen that both the temporary and upcoming alerts were on the route description pages.

[jajuan]

I don't think it was unclear communication. The Plaza owners have wanted CTA out for a long time. From what I've heard, the Plaza owners still refer to bus riders as 'those people'. After much hard work from CTA staff, The Plaza back tracked their decision.

I think you missed my point, which had nothing to do with whether or not the owners of what used to be Evergreen Plaza/The Plaza wanted buses off property. My point was strictly about the current and recent construction to tear the unused property down just how much detail or prior notice CTA about how long that construction would be given CTA's detour notices for 48 and 95W originally saying "until further notice" instead of stating the detour/service ends by a specific or approximate date. So that does suggest some level of initial unclear communication between the two. And now that there's truly nothing there that remains of the mall, there's definitely no reason for either route to pull into private parking lots. So your point about how long Plaza owners wanted buses out is moot. 

[jajuan]

This is actually quite incoherent. How do they plan on turning around? All I can see is that while the plaza building has been fenced off, possibly the demolition contractor will not actually do anything that would block Campbell (and I can easily see how this could be) and property owner told CTA they can go back to original route?

That was my question. The best I could figure out they mean from looking at what they are saying the 95W will do is that both routes offload all passengers upon reaching 97th/Western, go turn around somewhere with no passengers aboard, and come back to 97th/Western on the NB side of Western to begin service in the opposite direction. Perhaps both 74th and 103rd Garages have operator mini-maps drawn up, similar to the one you posted for #94 after that route got extended to 74th/Damen, that will clarify how operators on these two routes will turn around.

[orionbuslover]

I think you missed my point, which had nothing to do with whether or not the owners of what used to be Evergreen Plaza/The Plaza wanted buses off property. My point was strictly about the current and recent construction to tear the unused property down just how much detail or prior notice CTA about how long that construction would be given CTA's detour notices for 48 and 95W originally saying "until further notice" instead of stating the detour/service ends by a specific or approximate date. So that does suggest some level of initial unclear communication between the two. And now that there's truly nothing there that remains of the mall, there's definitely no reason for either route to pull into private parking lots. So your point about how long Plaza owners wanted buses out is moot. 

You may think the point is moot but it is not. The owners wanted CTA out ASAP. The notice said 'until further notice' because at the time the agreement to access the property was rescinded, it was thought to be permanent and the best option was to route the bus 1.5 miles away to a sufficient layover spot. Apparently staff didn't throw in the white flag and worked hard to secure a more sensible turnaround/layover. Most likely working with Oak Lawn officials for permission to use side streets to complete a turn around.

[Busjack]

You may think the point is moot but it is not. The owners wanted CTA out ASAP. The notice said 'until further notice' because at the time the agreement to access the property was rescinded, it was thought to be permanent and the best option was to route the bus 1.5 miles away to a sufficient layover spot. Apparently staff didn't throw in the white flag and worked hard to secure a more sensible turnaround/layover. Most likely working with Oak Lawn officials for permission to use side streets to complete a turn around.

And, unless you work in the scheduling or legal department, you don't know that either.

Maybe you will volunteer to go out to 97th and Western tomorrow and report to us what turnaround loop the buses are using.

[garmon757]

You may think the point is moot but it is not. The owners wanted CTA out ASAP. The notice said 'until further notice' because at the time the agreement to access the property was rescinded, it was thought to be permanent and the best option was to route the bus 1.5 miles away to a sufficient layover spot. Apparently staff didn't throw in the white flag and worked hard to secure a more sensible turnaround/layover. Most likely working with Oak Lawn officials for permission to use side streets to complete a turn around.

Do you have any kind of source to verify that?

[Busjack]

They haven't fixed BusTracker yet.

[orionbuslover]

And, unless you work in the scheduling or legal department, you don't know that either.

Maybe you will volunteer to go out to 97th and Western tomorrow and report to us what turnaround loop the buses are using.

The buses are turning around using 98th and the parking lot.

Edited August 24, 2015 by orionbuslover

[orionbuslover]

Do you have any kind of source to verify that?

Yes, I have a source. Only know them by the name of Deep Throat and we only meet in a indescribable location in Schaumburg. ?

[jajuan]

You may think the point is moot but it is not. The owners wanted CTA out ASAP. The notice said 'until further notice' because at the time the agreement to access the property was rescinded, it was thought to be permanent and the best option was to route the bus 1.5 miles away to a sufficient layover spot. Apparently staff didn't throw in the white flag and worked hard to secure a more sensible turnaround/layover. Most likely working with Oak Lawn officials for permission to use side streets to complete a turn around.

Actually the point is moot because not only has The Plaza been nonexistent for quite some time now, they spent three and a half weeks demolishing much of the structure. SO, what possible incentive does CTA have to go on the property anymore?

The buses are turning around using 98th and the parking lot.

The updated notices mentioning the detour ending says both routes will no longer go south of 97th Street along Western, so are you sure of that? I think you missed the notations in each notice. Below are direct quotes of those notices: 

  
#48 South Damen Buses Resume Normal Routing 

Effective 5am, Mon, Aug 24 Until Further Notice 

How does this affect my trip? 
Buses are returning to their normal routing. 

Buses will operate in both directions via Damen, 87th, Western, and the terminal at Western/97th. 

Note: Buses will not operate south of 97th on Western or north of 98th and Campbell. 
 

#95W West 95th* Buses Resume Normal Routing

Effective 5am, Mon, Aug 24 Until Further Notice 

How does this affect my trip? 
Buses are returning to their normal routing. 

Westbound buses will operate via 95th and Western, ending their trips at Western/97th. 

Eastbound buses will begin their trips at Western/97th, then continue their normal route on Western.  

Note: Buses will not operate south of 97th on Western or north of 98th and Campbell.   

 

*I corrected the typo they made on the #95W notice showing the route number as #95.

 

[Busjack]

Actually the point is moot because not only has The Plaza been nonexistent for quite some time now, they spent three and a half weeks demolishing much of the structure. SO, what possible incentive does CTA have to go on the property anymore?

The updated notices mentioning the detour ending says both routes will no longer go south of 97th Street along Western, so are you sure of that? I think you missed the notations in each notice. Below are direct quotes of those notices: 

  
#48 South Damen Buses Resume Normal Routing 

Effective 5am, Mon, Aug 24 Until Further Notice 

How does this affect my trip? 
Buses are returning to their normal routing. 

Buses will operate in both directions via Damen, 87th, Western, and the terminal at Western/97th. 

Note: Buses will not operate south of 97th on Western or north of 98th and Campbell. 
 

#95W West 95th* Buses Resume Normal Routing

Effective 5am, Mon, Aug 24 Until Further Notice 

How does this affect my trip? 
Buses are returning to their normal routing. 

Westbound buses will operate via 95th and Western, ending their trips at Western/97th. 

Eastbound buses will begin their trips at Western/97th, then continue their normal route on Western.  

Note: Buses will not operate south of 97th on Western or north of 98th and Campbell.   

 

*I corrected the typo they made on the #95W notice showing the route number as #95.

 

They would be consistent if the buses are turning around in the parking lot and heading back north on Western instead of circling the nonexistent mall building via Campbell.

Still not showing on BusTracker, though.

The question still is what's the purpose of 48 going back to 97th and Western instead of ending at 87th and Damen.

[jajuan]

They would be consistent if the buses are turning around in the parking lot and heading back north on Western instead of circling the nonexistent mall building via Campbell.

Still not showing on BusTracker, though.

The question still is what's the purpose of 48 going back to 97th and Western instead of ending at 87th and Damen.

True, but it would get back to my hypothesis that the buses are turning around empty in order to keep true to the part of the notes that state buses don't operate south of 97th while the only access to the parking lot from Western is at 98th. My guess with the 48 gets back to another earlier statement I made about that original south extension being made in the first place as a way softening the blow sort to speak of once again having the north end go no farther than 47th Street, though this time around turning around at the Western Orange Line station when the prior service ending near 47th ended at 47th/Damen.

[garmon757]

True, but it would get back to my hypothesis that the buses are turning around empty in order to keep true to the part of the notes that state buses don't operate south of 97th while the only access to the parking lot from Western is at 98th. My guess with the 48 gets back to another earlier statement I made about that original south extension being made in the first place as a way softening the blow sort to speak of once again having the north end go no farther than 47th Street, though this time around turning around at the Western Orange Line station when the prior service ending near 47th ended at 47th/Damen.

Let me get my Scooby Doo Mystery Ventra Card and solve this mystery! You're Fred my friend! 

[garmon757]

Yes, I have a source. Only know them by the name of Deep Throat and we only meet in a indescribable location in Schaumburg. ?

You've got to be kidding me! 

[BusHunter]

Let me get my Scooby Doo Mystery Ventra Card and solve this mystery! You're Fred my friend! 

Shaggy wants to know if there's any malt places or submarine shops around there!! I better not catch you saying Zoinks!!

[ArcherRider]

I see at CTA Bus Alerts that 39 Pershing will not run on Sundays effective August 30 due to low ridership.

Edited August 25, 2015 by ArcherRider

[orionbuslover]

Actually the point is moot because not only has The Plaza been nonexistent for quite some time now, they spent three and a half weeks demolishing much of the structure. SO, what possible incentive does CTA have to go on the property anymore?

The updated notices mentioning the detour ending says both routes will no longer go south of 97th Street along Western, so are you sure of that? 

1. The incentive CTA has to continue going on property is obvious, that is where the #95W ends. See how they had to route the bus 1.5 miles away when they couldn't access the property? The lesson learned from all of this is, it's not easy to find adequate layover/turnaround space. It's not just about serving riders, as operators need to be accommodated as well. 

2. Buses will not operate in service south of 97th. Most riders could care less about where the bus turns around at. They just need to know where they can and can not get on the bus at. After leaving 97th street the bus goes out of service to complete it's layover in the parking lot at 98th.

3. This may or may not be a final solution. Demolition is over. Now new construction begins.

 

Edited August 25, 2015 by orionbuslover

[garmon757]

Shaggy wants to know if there's any malt places or submarine shops around there!! I better not catch you saying Zoinks!!

Oh wow! LOL

[andrethebusman]

Reason for 48 to 97th is Walmart, Meijer, Sam's Club between 91st and 95th. Buses turn in blocked-off part of parking lot north side of 98th west of Artesian and come back out on Western.

[BusHunter]

Reason for 48 to 97th is Walmart, Meijer, Sam's Club between 91st and 95th. Buses turn in blocked-off part of parking lot north side of 98th west of Artesian and come back out on Western.

What happens when that gets developed?

[Busjack]

What happens when that gets developed?

I think that at some point, CTA will have to buy a chunk of land and build a turnaround.

[BusHunter]

I think that at some point, CTA will have to buy a chunk of land and build a turnaround.

So what they are forbidden from using the streets of Evergreen Park?

[Busjack]

So what they are forbidden from using the streets of Evergreen Park?

Might need permission (such as when Pace needed permission from Downers Grove to use Branding), or because most of the streets are residential, might need a big loop via 103rd and Kedzie (although I don't know how much going out of the way via 83rd to 87th and Damen was contemplated as a long term proposition).

I'm not sure how much CTA is under the original requirement that there be a franchise ordinance to run on particular streets.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Busjack

[jajuan]

1. The incentive CTA has to continue going on property is obvious, that is where the #95W ends. See how they had to route the bus 1.5 miles away when they couldn't access the property? The lesson learned from all of this is, it's not easy to find adequate layover/turnaround space. It's not just about serving riders, as operators need to be accommodated as well. 

2. Buses will not operate in service south of 97th. Most riders could care less about where the bus turns around at. They just need to know where they can and can not get on the bus at. After leaving 97th street the bus goes out of service to complete it's layover in the parking lot at 98th.

3. This may or may not be a final solution. Demolition is over. Now new construction begins.

 

On point 1, are you kidding me?? I posed the question of what incentive buses of either route had to continue pulling on to the property. And by that I was really getting at what real incentive did anyone have to wait for a bus in the parking lot. So because that's where 95W ends is not a real answer. On points 2 and 3, you still haven't explained or proven your contention that all of this actually had to do with Plaza owners wanting CTA buses off the property period and thinking they had a way to get them out, instead of it simply being due to the demolition construction that's been completed. It's also convenient that you edited your post at about the same time Andre gave clarification of how the buses are turning around, a clarification that already lined up with my original hypothesis. So at this point, I'm inclined to believe you're pulling things off the top of your head and throwing them out there to see what sticks and that you have no real idea of what transpired between CTA and property owners beyond property owners telling CTA they had construction planned, that construction ended, and the two routes in question are back to normal with a slight modification. 

[Busjack]

On point 1, are you kidding me?? I posed the question of what incentive buses of either route had to continue pulling on to the property. And by that I was really getting at what real incentive did anyone have to wait for a bus in the parking lot. So because that's where 95W ends is not a real answer. On points 2 and 3, you still haven't explained or proven your contention that all of this actually had to do with Plaza owners wanting CTA buses off the property period and thinking they had a way to get them out, instead of it simply being due to the demolition construction that's been completed. It's also convenient that you edited your post at about the same time Andre gave clarification of how the buses are turning around, a clarification that already lined up with my original hypothesis. So at this point, I'm inclined to believe you're pulling things off the top of your head and throwing them out there to see what sticks and that you have no real idea of what transpired between CTA and property owners beyond property owners telling CTA they had construction planned, that construction ended, and the two routes in question are back to normal with a slight modification. 

In that CTA is now doing what orionbuslover and Andre say it is doing, it is moot, until such time as any eventuality mentioned by BusHunter occurs.