Cermak Green Line Station

[jtrosario]

I'd imagine it would slow things down. If Morgan or Oakton didn't really impact travel times on those on the rails, I'd argue that it would not be too much of a hassle. Then again, if it's an island station, it would delay travel times, but not as much.

I also remember it mentioned that the new Cermak station would be an island station and that the CTA already had the easement there for it. Why would island construction have lesser delays that an outside platform station?

[geneking7320]

I also remember it mentioned that the new Cermak station would be an island station and that the CTA already had the easement there for it. Why would island construction have lesser delays that an outside platform station?

Have a look at this picture of the old Cermak station:

http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/images/SouthElevated/cermak05.jpg

I think CTA will have to widen the distance between the track centers to build a platform which would be ADA compliant. The

space taken by the center track (in the pic) is not likely wide enough. I think the needed construction would cause more delays than building two ADA compliant platforms (ie, on the operator's side of the train).

[chicagopcclcar]

Have a look at this picture of the old Cermak station:

http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/images/SouthElevated/cermak05.jpg

I think CTA will have to widen the distance between the track centers to build a platform which would be ADA compliant. The

space taken by the center track (in the pic) is not likely wide enough. I think the needed construction would cause more delays than building two ADA compliant platforms (ie, on the operator's side of the train).

How is the track to track distance at Cermak any different than it is at 35th Bronzeville station. Isn't 35th ADA compliant?

[MetroShadow]

How is the track to track distance at Cermak any different than it is at 35th Bronzeville station. Isn't 35th ADA compliant?

My concern is what's the minimum width for an ADA-Compliant station, and does Cermak cover that?

[chicagopcclcar]

My concern is what's the minimum width for an ADA-Compliant station, and does Cermak cover that?

Have you seen the Green line 35th/Bronzeville in person? The steel structure from 18th St. through Pershing Road is all the same structure. The original stations at Cermak and at 35th were outside platforms, hung on the ooutside of the structure. The first island platform was built by the CTA in the 60s. It burned down. The fire warped the steel which was replaced but the track centers remained the same. The secret to the present 35/Bronzeville is that they offset the stairs and deadended the elevator at the end of a walkway. So, same track centers in both locations. So it should work.

[geneking7320]

You guys may well be right that the present track centers at Cermak would be wide enough to support an island station.

It could be that CTA is contemplating a wider platform, say like at Belmont or Fullerton.

[Busjack]

Since you move the thread, I moved this:

Is anybody else wondering about the impact to the Red Line Trains of the Green Line Cermak construction breaking ground in June 2013? I remember that part of the funding agreement is that is gets completed by the end of 2013. There's a lot of (mostly)Red and Green trains going by that location for the first 4 months of it's construction/remaining 4 months of the Red South Construction/Reroute.....

If the construction is in the middle, there might be an effect.

However, my understanding is that it is TIF money, so it is whatever da Mare wants. There was the Red Eye article indicating that the comparably funded Washington Wabash station was delayed a year. That article still has CDOT saying that construction will start on the Green Line station, 4 months late.

You guys may well be right that the present track centers at Cermak would be wide enough to support an island station.

It could be that CTA is contemplating a wider platform, say like at Belmont or Fullerton.

This came up because it was noted that the former center express track was not in use.

[Kevin]

Based on measurements taken in Google Earth, the distance between the tracks is roughly 14 feet at both Cermak and at 35th.

Gabe Klein included new renderings of Cermak in his presentation to City Club Chicago yesterday. I've extracted and included them.

[Busjack]

....

Gabe Klein included new renderings of Cermak in his presentation to City Club Chicago yesterday.....

Apparently trying to mimic the "tube" over the IIT building through which the L runs.

[chicagopcclcar]

Based on measurements taken in Google Earth, the distance between the tracks is roughly 14 feet at both Cermak and at 35th.

Glad you were able to confirm what I had written.

"How is the track to track distance at Cermak any different than it is at 35th Bronzeville station. Isn't 35th ADA compliant?

"Have you seen the Green line 35th/Bronzeville in person? The steel structure from 18th St. through Pershing Road is all the same structure. The original stations at Cermak and at 35th were outside platforms, hung on the ooutside of the structure. The first island platform was built by the CTA in the 60s. It burned down. The fire warped the steel which was replaced but the track centers remained the same. The secret to the present 35/Bronzeville is that they offset the stairs and deadended the elevator at the end of a walkway. So, same track centers in both locations. So it should work.

[jtrosario]

However, my understanding is that it is TIF money, so it is whatever da Mare wants. There was the Red Eye article indicating that the comparably funded Washington Wabash station was delayed a year. That article still has CDOT saying that construction will start on the Green Line station, 4 months late.

For whatever reason, thought there was another reason for construction to have to start this summer. O.K., being incorrect on that - Why in the world is an in-fill station being started on track when the Red Line is being rerouted on it? 24 hour service of the busiest(Red) line being moved and combined with Green line trains while a new station is being built? Compared to Morgan(Pink and Green) being built, the Pink/Green is a lesser schedule with 4 or 6(vs. 8 car) trains and doesn't run 24-hours like Red does.

It seems like there have been good decisions like the North Main improvements, West 63rd improvements, Tower 18 junction work, and Wells Street Bridge replacement being done outside of the 5 month Red South Reroute/Replacement - but to have the Cermak in-fill station being built starting June 2013 with 4 months to go on the Red South Reroute doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't this wait until either later this year or early next year? (All these questions are to anyone who might know - not directed at Busjack)

[jajuan]

Apparently trying to mimic the "tube" over the IIT building through which the L runs.

Yes it looks similar except for being made of glass unlike the IIT tube and surrounding a rail station. IIT's tube if I remember correctly got it's origins from a student multidiscipline student design project for that university's interprofessional projects or IPRO courses that started as elective and eventually became required courses in the junior or senior year. The premise for that particular project was to design a way to reduce noise from passing Green Line trains, which you could hear from any classroom or office on campus, even those surrounded by thick concrete walls before the tube's construction. The merits of that project caught the eye of real world professionals and got fleshed out to the real world application that is now the IIT tube. The main impetus was to reduce L noise levels from the perspective of the remodeled student union building and new dorms that got built during the middle years of the last decade but the noise reductions ended up benefiting the whole campus.

[Busjack]

...but to have the Cermak in-fill station being built starting June 2013 with 4 months to go on the Red South Reroute doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't this wait until either later this year or early next year? (All these questions are to anyone who might know - not directed at Busjack)

The only one who could answer is Gabe Klein. However, from the bottom two renderings it looks like there is a lot of ground level work that could be done (i.e. the station house, elevator), and also a good amount of space between the tracks, should they decide to start work on the platform. I also bet that the platforms and tube segments are prefabricated.

[2200SeriesFan]

Hmmm, really they wanna do that with the new Cermak Green Line stop? That's a waste of money to bother doing that, if you ask me. I don't mind if they have a few design aspects that mimic that IIT tunnel north of 35th, but to do it to that extent seems overkill. Thanks for posting those renderings too Kevin, since I'd hadn't had a chance to see them till now.

I'm still of the belief they should've spent less money on the Morgan Green Line stop, but no use complaining about that anymore now....

[Busjack]

Hmmm, really they wanna do that with the new Cermak Green Line stop? That's a waste of money to bother doing that, if you ask me....

The difference here is that, unlike most projects for which "there is no source of funding," Morgan, Cermak, and Washingon-Wabash are using TIF money. There may be an argument that TIF is proper here because it might aid the development of the "Motor Row" district, and, besides that, as the Daley administration proved, it would be used and probably wasted on other pet projects.

But I would like to see the rationale for the "tube." Like at ITT, is there something that has to be shielded from the sound?

[mkohut]

Without seeing the list of projects and how much is being spend on it .You can't tell what Tif projects are being use for.Except,to help get reelected.

[Busjack]

Without seeing the list of projects and how much is being spend on it .You can't tell what Tif projects are being use for.Except,to help get reelected.

And, at least during the Daley Administration, to give some subsidy to some company that apparently didn't need it. It appears that Emanuel has cut down on that type of corporate welfare. At least here it is going into public infrastructure.

[Kevin]

But I would like to see the rationale for the "tube." Like at ITT, is there something that has to be shielded from the sound?

This design eliminates the need for canopy support columns, thus allowing for a roomier platform.

[Busjack]

This design eliminates the need for canopy support columns, thus allowing for a roomier platform.

The roomier platform makes sense, given the question before whether the space between the tracks met ADA requirements.

I guess this is some fancy truss, and that riders outside the canopy would be rained on (if my interpretation of the drawing is correct)? In #1, the tube does not go near the elevator tower, although there does seem to be some sort of covering between the two rows of lights.

[Kevin]

I guess this is some fancy truss, and that riders outside the canopy would be rained on (if my interpretation of the drawing is correct)? In #1, the tube does not go near the elevator tower, although there does seem to be some sort of covering between the two rows of lights.

There are canopies that extend beyond the areas not covered by the tube, but the supports for these will be on the sides of the platform rather than in the middle. Train berthing areas will be offset, with trains stopping just before the end of the tube, to accommodate this design. I'm attaching an earlier concept rendering that demonstrates this a bit better.

[Busjack]

There are canopies that extend beyond the areas not covered by the tube, but the supports for these will be on the sides of the platform rather than in the middle. Train berthing areas will be offset, with trains stopping just before the end of the tube, to accommodate this design. I'm attaching an earlier concept rendering that demonstrates this a bit better.

cermak_concept.png

I don't know if that helps explain the concept. Rendering #2 has what appears to be a southbound train stopping in the tube at the "Board Here" sign. Maybe the staggering helps riders in the first couple of cars in the train, but it looks like the main thing the tube does is keep the rain off Cermak Road itself. Rendering #1 would imply that it is a long trip from the elevator to where one could bound a Loop-bound train.

[jtrosario]

There are canopies that extend beyond the areas not covered by the tube, but the supports for these will be on the sides of the platform rather than in the middle. Train berthing areas will be offset, with trains stopping just before the end of the tube, to accommodate this design. I'm attaching an earlier concept rendering that demonstrates this a bit better.

cermak_concept.png

Thank you, for me that does clear it up. Also, it seems clearer now that there are two elevators, both on the far north and far south sides. I assume stairways and/or escalators would also be on the same side and in front of the NB and SB berthed trains, with a pathway to go to the elevator(s) just beyond. My second assumption would be that there is room to berth a 10 car train, much like the extra space alloted at Belmont and Fullerton stations.

[Busjack]

Fox32 just had a story that da Mare is having a groundbreaking ceremony today.

Proving my point on what Chicagoans think are the rail lines, Joanie Lum said, "here comes the Green line train now" and "because the Red Line is shut down, riders have to go to Roosevelt or 35th to catch the Green Line." Of course, the train that passed did not have fluted sides, so, in current CTA lingo, it was a Red Line train.

But if you want to see the Mayor today, that's your chance.

[mkohut]

Fox32 just had a story that da Mare is having a groundbreaking ceremony today.

Proving my point on what Chicagoans think are the rail lines, Joanie Lum said, "here comes the Green line train now" and "because the Red Line is shut down, riders have to go to Roosevelt or 35th to catch the Green Line." Of course, the train that passed did not have fluted sides, so, in current CTA lingo, it was a Red Line train.

But if you want to see the Mayor today, that's your chance.

Maybe Carlito will show up

[Busjack]

Maybe Carlito will show up

or Z. And I don't mean Zambrano.