Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[Railwaymodeler]

I recently got a Ventra Circuitbreaker pass in the mail. Now I wonder, how do they handle it when these free ride passes fail to read? Anyone have any insight?

[Busjack]

I recently got a Ventra Circuitbreaker pass in the mail. Now I wonder, how do they handle it when these free ride passes fail to read? Anyone have any insight?

Unless this is like when some old guy assaulted a bus driver over the prior version of the free pass, just so CTA could get passenger count, it should be sufficient to flash the pass. At least Metra indicates so.

[Railwaymodeler]

Thanks. I can't find any "official" proceedure anywhere, and Metra does not have to worry about machines failing to read them. There are forum members here that are bus drivers, I figured maybe one of them could give the policy from CTA or Pace, or at least the policy as explained to them.

[See Tea Eh]

http://www.vancouversun.com/Compass+card+rollout+delayed+West+Coast+Express/9225748/story.html

In Vancouver, they've delayed rollout of their Compass Card by several months. Compass uses the exact same Cubic technology that Ventra uses. Can't tell if the problems they're facing, resulting in the delay, are related to the issues CTA has with Ventra, or if it's something different.

[sw4400]

Still trying to maintain hope for Ventra, since I've had no issues with my card up to this point *knocks on wood*. But it sounds like Cubic is the NABI of Transit Fare Providers... Story

[BusHunter]

Latest glitch tonight was that ventra was only displaying rides up to 12/1 not 12/2. Someone I was with paying a cash ventra fare was wondering when their two hours was up. They looked and then I looked neither account displayed past 12/1 so I guess they had to ride on blind faith, because they sure were not going to find out at ventrachicago.com.

[busfan2847]

Latest glitch tonight was that ventra was only displaying rides up to 12/1 not 12/2. Someone I was with paying a cash ventra fare was wondering when their two hours was up. They looked and then I looked neither account displayed past 12/1 so I guess they had to ride on blind faith, because they sure were not going to find out at ventrachicago.com.

Yes I noticed that too. The current transit balance was correct but the transactions from 12/2 were not in the itemized list. I noticed the difference because my card had autoloaded. This morning the transactions from yesterday are there.

[Busjack]

http://www.vancouversun.com/Compass+card+rollout+delayed+West+Coast+Express/9225748/story.html

In Vancouver, they've delayed rollout of their Compass Card by several months. Compass uses the exact same Cubic technology that Ventra uses. Can't tell if the problems they're facing, resulting in the delay, are related to the issues CTA has with Ventra, or if it's something different.

The article points out two things: One the same and one different:

• The initial rollout is supposed to be on the West Coast Express--a commuter rail line with zone fares (and a balky website). The article also mentioned a fare gate program. So, they tried to start first with what this area is going to try last--Metra.
• The same is the complaint about the online registration system. Apparently they had troubles starting out first with their equivalent of ADA cards, which here was last.

[jajuan]

Still trying to maintain hope for Ventra, since I've had no issues with my card up to this point *knocks on wood*. But it sounds like Cubic is the NABI of Transit Fare Providers... Story

Well CBS 2 News' source for this information is late. Much of the information in this story has already been reported in (if I'm remember the post correctly) a news article about similar problems with Cubic's development of a smart fare card for London's transit system. The article was linked in this thread by another forum member last month as I recall. In addition to London, those North American cities in the CBS 2 story and I think one in Australia were also mentioned as having problems. And why does every time CTA has problems with a product from a supplier or vendor now, that company is said to be the NABI of whatever it is that company is selling? Making those sorts of statements only serves to exaggerate or underestimate how big a particular problem might be.

[Amtrak41]

http://www.vancouversun.com/Compass+card+rollout+delayed+West+Coast+Express/9225748/story.html

In Vancouver, they've delayed rollout of their Compass Card by several months. Compass uses the exact same Cubic technology that Ventra uses. Can't tell if the problems they're facing, resulting in the delay, are related to the issues CTA has with Ventra, or if it's something different.

Their card has orientation that is horizontal , not vertical

[jajuan]

This morning when I tapped my Ventra card on the bus I got the usual 'Go' screen letting me know my card was accepted but it also showed some form of warning at the bottom of the screen. I didn't get to see what the message was because the screen blinked too quickly back to the standby 'Tap card below' screen. I just know the text appeared black within an orange border and was preceded by an exclamation point. I wondering if the message was a warning reminder that it's about time to reload my card as the pass I currently have loaded on it is set to expire on Thursday.

[owine]

This morning when I tapped my Ventra card on the bus I got the usual 'Go' screen letting me know my card was accepted but it also showed some form of warning at the bottom of the screen. I didn't get to see what the message was because the screen blinked too quickly back to the standby 'Tap card below' screen. I just know the text appeared black within an orange border and was preceded by an exclamation point. I wondering if the message was a warning reminder that it's about time to reload my card as the pass I currently have loaded on it is set to expire on Thursday.

I have seen this, the warning says something to the effect of "Pass expiring soon". They have actually had this since the initial rollout, I saw it very early on.

[owine]

The question would be if this is a function of the bus needing to rely on the cell phone link, while the turnstiles are probably hard wired to some internet or network connection.

I think that is a fair assumption. Although if I remember correctly, CC/CCPs did offline transactions that were uploaded at a later time. Perhaps some sort of hybrid online/offline transaction mechanism would serve Ventra better or changes to the current mobile internet infrastructure should be explored.

[Busjack]

Well CBS 2 News' source for this information is late. Much of the information in this story has already been reported in (if I'm remember the post correctly) a news article about similar problems with Cubic's development of a smart fare card for London's transit system. The article was linked in this thread by another forum member last month as I recall. In addition to London, those North American cities in the CBS 2 story and I think one in Australia were also mentioned as having problems. And why does every time CTA has problems with a product from a supplier or vendor now, that company is said to be the NABI of whatever it is that company is selling? Making those sorts of statements only serves to exaggerate or underestimate how big a particular problem might be.

There was a reference above that Gapers Block had the story on Nov. 11. That story also mentioned other Vancouver problems.

As far as sw's usual NABI comment:

• This is the second time CTA went whole hog on an unproven product.
• The only thing that has avoided a lawsuit at this point is that CTA says it hasn't paid anything, and Cubic is apparently o.k. with that, as opposed to NABI, which sued for the unpaid about 13% of that contract.

The one difference may be that NABI stated that it would inspect and repair the buses, when it never did, while the question is still open whether Cubic will honor its promise to fix the system, given such things as CTA is relying on Cubic's metrics.

I'll add that this is the second time CTA tried to B.S. the public, until the defects became too obvious. Remember Rodriguez saying that Huberman was in secret conversations with the FTA regarding taking NABIs off the street 6 months before they did? Then there was this PR campaign that all the problems were the users' fault.

Too many similarities to ignore.

[jajuan]

There was a reference above that Gapers Block had the story on Nov. 11. That story also mentioned other Vancouver problems.

As far as sw's usual NABI comment:

• This is the second time CTA went whole hog on an unproven product.
• The only thing that has avoided a lawsuit at this point is that CTA says it hasn't paid anything, and Cubic is apparently o.k. with that, as opposed to NABI, which sued for the unpaid about 13% of that contract.

The one difference may be that NABI stated that it would inspect and repair the buses, when it never did, while the question is still open whether Cubic will honor its promise to fix the system, given such things as CTA is relying on Cubic's metrics.

I'll add that this is the second time CTA tried to B.S. the public, until the defects became too obvious. Remember Rodriguez saying that Huberman was in secret conversations with the FTA regarding taking NABIs off the street 6 months before they did? Then there was this PR campaign that all the problems were the users' fault.

Too many similarities to ignore.

no I'm not saying there aren't any similarities as far as Cubic goes. My point is the blanket comparison may in the Ventra case underestimate how deep the problems working with Cubic may be given Cubic was able to mask its shoddy history overall due to the earlier report that Cubic's work outside the States and North America may be even worse than the problems that have cropped up with US and Canadian TAs. And in regards to the comparison of NABI and the current acquisition of the 5000-series railcars, it was an exaggeration since all the issues on that front were mainly minor and had more to do with lapses in quality control.

[See Tea Eh]

Their card has orientation that is horizontal , not vertical

Makes no difference as to its actual function. It's just printing on the face of the card. You could hold the card horizontal, vertical, upside down, flipped over, etc. and it would work the same.

[BusHunter]

I overheard someone on the yellow line say that new york and another city got rid of their smart card system, due to associated problems. (Sounds like ny's was a bank problem)I looked at the new york times and that's a true statement. They hope to reorganize and get a smart card plan in 2-5 years. So CTA can scuttle Ventra if it chooses. That may be what happens if this becomes a legal fight.

[busfan2847]

I overheard someone on the yellow line say that new york and another city got rid of their smart card system, due to associated problems. (Sounds like ny's was a bank problem)I looked at the new york times and that's a true statement. They hope to reorganize and get a smart card plan in 2-5 years. So CTA can scuttle Ventra if it chooses. That may be what happens if this becomes a legal fight.

They did not really start!

Rather than having their own cards they were going to rely on their customers to use there own contactless bankcards but the US banks have not issued the cards widely enough. (In fact one of my cards that had contactless last time has just been reissued without it). So it was a non-starter.

( http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/25/nyregion/after-mta-setbacks-no-swipe-fare-cards-are-still-stuck-in-the-future.html?_r=0

[owine]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-cta-ventra-glitches-mostly-gone-but-delays-remain-20131204,0,536043.story

Per this article, the contract requires average processing of 0.5 seconds while the latest metrics have the average at 0.6 seconds presently for train stations.

[Busjack]

They did not really start!

Rather than having their own cards they were going to rely on their customers to use there own contactless bankcards but the US banks have not issued the cards widely enough. (In fact one of my cards that had contactless last time has just been reissued without it). So it was a non-starter.

( http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/25/nyregion/after-mta-setbacks-no-swipe-fare-cards-are-still-stuck-in-the-future.html?_r=0

The other thing noted (in this Metro Magazine reference, which accords with my understanding at the time), is that MTA ran two tests, one with Citibank.* The assumption I made from that was that one needed a Citi card, not realizing that the bank could clear transactions on other bank cards.

But I agree that it didn't really start, and contrast the two tests to CTA going hog wild without much of any testing.

___________

*It also appears that MTA never itself got into the chip card business, as the MetroCard equivalent to the CCP appears to be a magnetic stripe card. Is that correct?

[owine]

The other thing noted (in this Metro Magazine reference, which accords with my understanding at the time), is that MTA ran two tests, one with Citibank.* The assumption I made from that was that one needed a Citi card, not realizing that the bank could clear transactions on other bank cards.

But I agree that it didn't really start, and contrast the two tests to CTA going hog wild without much of any testing.

___________

*It also appears that MTA never itself got into the chip card business, as the MetroCard equivalent to the CCP appears to be a magnetic stripe card. Is that correct?

I don't believe the CitiBank pilot program ever expanded beyond Citi cards at the time. That must have been at least 5 years ago.

The system BusHunter, busfan and the NYT refer to was when they imported the former head of London transit and were looking to undertake an equivalent Oyster/Ventra Card project to completely replace the MetroCard system.

And yes, there are only magnetic strip cards in New York. The MetroCard system is terrible which is why I can't understand everyone clamoring to go back to magnetic strip cards here in Chicago.

[Busjack]

...

And yes, there are only magnetic strip cards in New York. The MetroCard system is terrible which is why I can't understand everyone clamoring to go back to magnetic strip cards here in Chicago.

I don't think it is that. I think most go along with Kevin's viewpoint that Cubic used a lack of chips as justification for foisting a mess on us, especially given the record of other Cubic failures noted by Gapers Block and then by CBS2.

If nothing else, MetroCard demonstrates that the equivalent of CCP can be done without any chips at all.

[BusHunter]

They did not really start!

Rather than having their own cards they were going to rely on their customers to use there own contactless bankcards but the US banks have not issued the cards widely enough. (In fact one of my cards that had contactless last time has just been reissued without it). So it was a non-starter.

( http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/25/nyregion/after-mta-setbacks-no-swipe-fare-cards-are-still-stuck-in-the-future.html?_r=0

Interesting, so what do people without bank accounts do?

In other news, the Redeye mentioned yesterday Ventra is calling ex Chicago Card users who have not registered their cards. If the CTA transit cards are still in use until further notice, then why are they soliciting Chicago Card users at all? Isn't the future of Ventra in doubt or on probation?

[Busjack]

Interesting, so what do people without bank accounts do?

....

Use MetroCard (a magnetic stripe card). Read above.

In other news, the Redeye mentioned yesterday Ventra is calling ex Chicago Card users who have not registered their cards. If the CTA transit cards are still in use until further notice, then why are they soliciting Chicago Card users at all? Isn't the future of Ventra in doubt or on probation?

The calling isn't new. The news seemed to be that the contractor hired to do the calling was doing a survey why the holders of the old cards hadn't switched yet.

And, obviously, the point is to overcome objections of those who were unable to or refused to convert at this point, so that CTA can shut down the legacy equipment eventually. Just not Dec. 15, like originally scheduled.

[BusHunter]

Use MetroCard (a magnetic stripe card). Read above.

Yeah, but wasn't the metrocard system going to abolished similar to here?