Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[nflyer22]

I would also figure that this is a cheaper solution than paying Cubic to put its readers into about 400 Pace owned suburban paratransit buses, plus probably thousands of contractor owned paratransit vans in the city.

Also, the cell phone provides a data link, although the new Pace owned paratransit vehicles supposedly have their own gps system.

Pretty much that's what sums it up. You don't need a terminal especially if you have technology in the palm of your hand.

In my opinion I think it is cheaper to get someone to write up an app that will handle the transactions via the smartphone (and later distribute the app to all necessary devices) than to purchase several hundred new Ventra units for the paratransit vehicles both owned either by Pace or private vendors. So yes I agree (didn't realize this has been mentioned earlier in the thread).

And to think our smartphones in our palms nowadays has the computing power of a supercomputer that weighed several tons back in the '70s.

[Busjack]

...

And to think our smartphones in our palms nowadays has the computing power of a supercomputer that weighed several tons back in the '70s.

In related news, I just saw a TV commercial, in which a man with a smart phone bumps against a woman's purse, and steals her credit card information, so "you need the RFID blocker wallet..."

Of course, I would suggest giving the seller a virtual credit card number, or it will have your credit card information.

[flossman]

In related news, I just saw a TV commercial, in which a man with a smart phone bumps against a woman's purse, and steals her credit card information, so "you need the RFID blocker wallet..."

Of course, I would suggest giving the seller a virtual credit card number, or it will have your credit card information.

The paranoia about RFID drives me nuts. Even if someone got close enough with a smart phone to power the RFID chip in your credit card, anything they'd get would be encrypted. I imagine it would be a heck of a lot easier to scam credit card information in more traditional ways.

[Busjack]

...I imagine it would be a heck of a lot easier to scam credit card information in more traditional ways.

As I suggested. I doubt, despite the commercial, that the smart phone really displayed her account number and expiration date.

[sw4400]

As I suggested. I doubt, despite the commercial, that the smart phone really displayed her account number and expiration date.

You'd be surprised how the modern hacker can get past encryption devices to get account numbers.

[jajuan]

I agree with flossman and Busjack on this one. I've had a RFID debit card for several years and have not run into any problems like in that wallet commercial. The paranoia really is exaggerated to the point of being annoying.

[MetroShadow]

The paranoia about RFID drives me nuts. Even if someone got close enough with a smart phone to power the RFID chip in your credit card, anything they'd get would be encrypted. I imagine it would be a heck of a lot easier to scam credit card information in more traditional ways.

As much as I am one without a tin foil hat (those things are rather uncomfortable), I actually own one of those RFID blocker wallets. They're clunky, yet I always know where my wallet is (I used to lose them plenty of times in my youth). The paranoia (just in general) is astounding and ridiculous, but that's for another debate.

I would +1 your comment, because not everyone has the capabilities to hijack your information, but rather they'll steal it through other means (or from the inside).

[flossman]

As much as I am one without a tin foil hat (those things are rather uncomfortable), I actually own one of those RFID blocker wallets. They're clunky, yet I always know where my wallet is (I used to lose them plenty of times in my youth). The paranoia (just in general) is astounding and ridiculous, but that's for another debate.

I would +1 your comment, because not everyone has the capabilities to hijack your information, but rather they'll steal it through other means (or from the inside).

I can see never losing one of those wallets by having a strong magnet implanted in your hip/thigh.

[Busjack]

I can see never losing one of those wallets by having a strong magnet implanted in your hip/thigh.

But is the magnet strong enough to demagnetize the magnetic strip cards in that wallet?* Or is the steel in that wallet sufficiently impervious to magnetic fields?

I don't think anyone wants to experiment on that.

_______

*I remember when people used to use kitchen magnets to store them on the refrigerator door, and darn, they didn't work.

[flossman]

But is the magnet strong enough to demagnetize the magnetic strip cards in that wallet?* Or is the steel in that wallet sufficiently impervious to magnetic fields?

I don't think anyone wants to experiment on that.

_______

*I remember when people used to use kitchen magnets to store them on the refrigerator door, and darn, they didn't work.

I think the aluminum would protect against a field strong enough to stick the wallet to but weak enough that you could easily remove it. It's pretty much a tiny Faraday cage, too, so I'd imagine the magnetism would be weakened.

As for trying it... you underestimate my madness. I wouldn't implant it under my skin, though, even though it's apparently a common-ish body mod people get nowadays... (that makes me sound so old!)

[Tcmetro]

Looks like a similar card is in operation in South Africa. Is Joburg the only city to have such a card in operation?

http://www.reavaya.org.za/news-archive/april-2013n/875-get-smart-with-rea-vaya

[ctrabs74]

I found out about the new "Ventra" card on the CTA web site and saw that CTA/Pace is aiming for a summer implementation. Are these cards going to be available by August? I'm tentatively thinking about visiting Chicago for a few days later this summer and would like to be able to get one of those cards.

[Kevin]

I found out about the new "Ventra" card on the CTA web site and saw that CTA/Pace is aiming for a summer implementation. Are these cards going to be available by August? I'm tentatively thinking about visiting Chicago for a few days later this summer and would like to be able to get one of those cards.

I haven't heard anything more specific than "summer" thus far.

[Busjack]

I'm suddenly getting a bunch of Nigerian spam (and scam) that my prepaid ATM card with millions of dollars on it is waiting delivery.

Now, if the Nigerians were offering Ventra cards....

[MetroShadow]

I haven't heard anything more specific than "summer" thus far.

Seconded. I'm aware [very limited] friendly testing should happen next month, but could be pushed back.

[Busjack]

Various stories on the home page, including this one from the Tribune indicate that some of the Ventra debit card charges are being reduced.

But as I predicted, the article said what the consequence to CTA would be, and thus why CTA was pushing the debit card option:

Under the renegotiated deal reached between the transit agency and its Ventra partners, the CTA gave up a guaranteed half-million dollar annual minimum share of some prepaid debit fees that will be collected. The actual revenue generated for the CTA from the ancillary fees was projected to be much higher than $500,000, officials had said.

Also, the article says that the $5 deposit will not be charged in 2013.

[BusHunter]

The RTA is sending out letters this week notifying seniors and the disabled they will soon be receiving their Ventra cards. There will be no charge for the cards.

[sw4400]

Various stories on the home page, including this one from the Tribune indicate that some of the Ventra debit card charges are being reduced.

I will buy the Ventra Transit Card and use it to get my 7-Day Passes(however that is done). But I am not 100% satisfied until the Debit Card Option is totally eliminated from the package. Like any marketing ploy, there will be some tantalizing paragraph about how good the Debit Card Option is so you can take the bus/L to a store you want to buy some stuff at(e.g: groceries, clothes, etc...) and use that same Debit Card to ride back home on the bus/L, and that will get people who don't read the fine print to agree to the option, and even though some fees have been reduced or removed, still get nickel and dimed by the Debit Card.

I am aware it is an option for those who will say I am beating around a dead bush here, but one that shouldn't be included in this.... the Chicago Card/Chicago Card Plus were perfect options on the CTA, and there were no Debit Card options with them. Ventra should've been made in their predecessors' image, IMO.

[Busjack]

...But I am not 100% satisfied until the Debit Card Option is totally eliminated from the package. Like any marketing ploy....

There is no reason to opt for it. But given the PR disaster (not that CTA has worried about PR disasters before), if fares go up* because of the lost revenue, you'll know why.

_________

*Which seems to be a PR disaster CTA can live with. I won't rehash what I said on the CTA Tattler about that.

[sw4400]

There is no reason to opt for it. But given the PR disaster (not that CTA has worried about PR disasters before), if fares go up* because of the lost revenue, you'll know why.

_________

*Which seems to be a PR disaster CTA can live with. I won't rehash what I said on the CTA Tattler about that.

The CTA always seems to get the bigger piece of the RTA pie as far as funding goes(as attested by PACE and Metra complaining about it), and still they got revenue issues. I think it's due to mismanagement at the top... before CTA considers more fare hikes and/or service cuts in the future, how about trimming the fat from the Front Office? I'd love to make six figures just sitting around twirling a pen and making up ideas that I think are good. Jobs like those are unnecessary. I don't have access to the CTA Front Office layout to see how many "Managers" and "Office Personnel" are there that aren't necessary, but I'm sure there's quite a lot. Cut those positions and you got additional revenue for the CTA right there.

No joking aside, but the way the CTA runs things and keeps giving all these irrelevant positions raises annually, this might be the layout of the CTA in the far off future...

-1 Bus Route(Route TBD)

-1 Rail Route(Route TBD, most likely Blue or Red Line)

-$20 fare to ride bus, $25 to ride "L"

In all seriousness, this might be the CTA one day with all the fare increases and service cuts, while those at the top twirling pens that aren't necessary are still employed.

[Busjack]

... I don't have access to the CTA Front Office layout to see how many "Managers" and "Office Personnel" are there that aren't necessary....

As I've noted before (but somehow that gets caught up in a flame), the number, names, ranks, and salaries of everyone who works at CTA, including in management, is is a Salary Spreadsheet on the FOIA page.

It doesn't indicate how many of those are unnecessary, or as someone else put it "idiots," but at least the names are there.

BTW, for those who asked if it is worth it to quit their jobs to become bus drivers, it appears that most bus operators make $30.32 an hour, but some only make $15.16. Maybe the latter refers to the 400 PTOs just hired. But the assistant chief rail engineer must have just got a raise from $102K to $104.3K The chief rail and bus engineers get $111K. But somebody's friend Brian Steele gets $153K, and one would think that the flack jobs are dispensable.

[Railwaymodeler]

One thing with Ventra that I do wonder, is what, if any, legal ramifications are there if a bus or rail operator has a passenger (or passengers) use their cards and pay their fare, then for one reason or the other, are not able to reach their destination.

I thought of this the other day, as there's a couple Pace North drivers that are outright abusive to their passengers, one who, after I filed a complaint on her at the garage and Headquarters, figured out who filed the complaint, and refused me service AFTER paying my fare. She refused to move the bus, and phoned 9-1-1. Police arrived, other passengers informed the police no wrongdoing had occured, and even the driver could not explain why she wanted me off the bus. But I was refused service after paying to board.

If something like this happens with Ventra (And I have spoken to other passengers who this driver has done these kinds of things to, so it is not a onetime incident), I wonder if it would be considered credit card fraud or outright theft?

[sw4400]

One thing with Ventra that I do wonder, is what, if any, legal ramifications are there if a bus or rail operator has a passenger (or passengers) use their cards and pay their fare, then for one reason or the other, are not able to reach their destination.

I thought of this the other day, as there's a couple Pace North drivers that are outright abusive to their passengers, one who, after I filed a complaint on her at the garage and Headquarters, figured out who filed the complaint, and refused me service AFTER paying my fare. She refused to move the bus, and phoned 9-1-1. Police arrived, other passengers informed the police no wrongdoing had occured, and even the driver could not explain why she wanted me off the bus. But I was refused service after paying to board.

If something like this happens with Ventra (And I have spoken to other passengers who this driver has done these kinds of things to, so it is not a onetime incident), I wonder if it would be considered credit card fraud or outright theft?

I don't think it could be considered Credit Card Fraud as nobody stole your card information, same thing as outright theft. All that would most likely happen in this situation is the Transit Authority that this occurred on would have to give you some sort of credit or refund on your Ventra Card, or if a Supervisor comes on scene and deems the Operator to be in the wrong, to allow you to take the next bus at no charge.

CTA/PACE can't refuse service unless there is a reason to do so. If you attack the driver in any physical way(this includes throwing garbage at him/her, spitting on him/her, etc...), there's reason, if you threaten the driver, there's reason provided you have witnesses who will back what they heard up(in the case of Driver vs. Passenger verbal altercation, the passenger will always win that without a witness).

Where I work, we can refuse alcohol/tobacco/restricted medication sales to people who appear intoxicated(alcohol) or can't present valid I.D if asked(all three). I'm not a CTA Operator or PACE Operator, but I'm pretty sure you have to have extreme cause to refuse service to a passenger.

This reminds me of a memory on the #11 Lincoln years ago... I was headed to work and at Belle Plaine, the Operator saw a passenger waiting at the stop for the bus, but wouldn't pick him up stating to us that the guy spit on him once before and he wouldn't pick him up now. When he approached the stop, he didn't pull over, all he did was stop at the crosswalk, honk the horn, wave at him and take off.

[Busjack]

One thing with Ventra that I do wonder, is what, if any, legal ramifications are there if a bus or rail operator has a passenger (or passengers) use their cards and pay their fare, then for one reason or the other, are not able to reach their destination.

...

If something like this happens with Ventra (And I have spoken to other passengers who this driver has done these kinds of things to, so it is not a onetime incident), I wonder if it would be considered credit card fraud or outright theft?

The Ventra card makes no difference, compared to either a mag strip card or putting your $1.75 in the fare box.

The most that can be said is that it is a breach of contract, but (at least with private tickets, and I'll bet with the transit authorities too), there probably are terms of service somewhere in fine print.

Must be real fun riding in Waukegan, though.

[Railwaymodeler]

@SW,

That is pretty much what I thought too, the driver I mentioned had a more personal reason to pull her stunt: Some time back, about 8-9 years ago, she heard I am a PC tech. She started sweet talking me when I would get aboard her bus. Another driver gave me the heads up when he heard she offered to take me to dinner: She's married, and has pulled similar with a couple drivers at the garage, basically she wanted computer stuff from me. I told her next time I saw her that such activities is very unprofessional on her part as well as mine, and had a seat. Apparently being told no never sat well.

Now to make it real interesting, she was never trouble until the old garage manager retired and a new one took over (Of whom I have known outside of Pace for many years). I had also been a witness when another driver was wrongfully fired. Apparently telling the garage second-in-command that he may know bible quotes, but does not act Christian, did not sit well. He seems to be a bit of a control freak. Near as anyone can tell, and there is bits and pieces that supports this, when the new manager took over, the second in command told him a lot of things that were not true, and this is when the stunts of filing false police reports started, not only against me, but also against friends who are witnesses to these stunts too.

Must be real fun riding in Waukegan, though.

Yes, Busjack, I think you could say that.

If one were to piece together my posts and digs at Pace North, one would get the impression that it is mis-managed.