Bringing Back a Route and/or Segment

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

The former 144 was the old 146 in that, before the 2003 restructuring,  the 146 entered the Drive at Irving Park while the 145 entered at Belmont.   So it seems odd that when the 146 first replaced the 145 between Belmont and Irving Park that people complained  about having one express Michigan Ave route when they had just one to begin with. 

Since the complaint was that the bus was overcrowded, there must have been more loading north of Wilson, even though there was 144.

[jajuan]

19 hours ago, Busjack said:

The only thing I remember is that people between Belmont and Irving Park comp;ained about the first restructuring; nobody on the lakefront complained about the second.

Only real saving during rush hour was cutting 144, as 148 is still running (just not to Wilson/Ravenswood) and the Grace trips were picked up by 146.

Yeah no one complained very much on the second restructuring. And I think CTA's bigger aim was trying to free up a few more buses for 147 since I do remember a few folks complaining that even with artics buses were always crowded.

[Mr.NewFlyer1051]

how would it feel if CTA ever brought back the old 40 O’Hare Jefferson Park Express? it would help ease crowing and plus it would help getting passengers to ohare faster 

[Busjack]

47 minutes ago, Mr.NewFlyer1051 said:

how would it feel if CTA ever brought back the old 40 O’Hare Jefferson Park Express? it would help ease crowing and plus it would help getting passengers to ohare faster 

Stupid. The Blue Line extension takes care of the passenger load  (8 cars every 5 to 10 minutes vs. 1 bus every 15 minutes) and drops passengers off at the terminal instead of (I suppose now) the MMF, and does not get stuck in expressway traffic (and thus the bus would not be faster),

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Mr.NewFlyer1051 said:

how would it feel if CTA ever brought back the old 40 O’Hare Jefferson Park Express? it would help ease crowing and plus it would help getting passengers to ohare faster 

I don't think so.  The Blue Line extension to O'Hare made the 40 expendable.   Even with stops at Harlem,  Cumberland,  and River Rd the train would be faster than the bus sitting in traffic.  No one, except maybe bus foamers, would get off if a train going to the airport to ride a bus going to the same place.  

My idea of wasting train crowding would never happen,  but I would put tracks in the Kennedy reversible express lanes and run express trains from Jefferson Park to Clark sm=Lake. Passengers north and west of Jefferson Park would have the option of an express train downtown or a local train.   Passengers south of Jefferson Park would have a better chance at seating.   Drivers would loathed losing the express lanes but those lanes are parking lots most of the time anyway.

My express branded trains would terminate at UIC Halsted. If it were possible to have express trains with no stops between downtown and O'Hare,  I'd be for it but I do see enough space on the Kennedy north of the Edens junction to build outer tracks to run expresses to bypass stations north of Montrose. 

Id I really wanted to be creative,  after Clark/Lake I could route the train through the Block 37 hole to connect with the Stare Street subway then connect with the current Orange Line and run out to Midway.   That would be one train serving both airports.  

[Busjack]

51 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

....

Id I really wanted to be creative,  after Clark/Lake I could route the train through the Block 37 hole to connect with the Stare Street subway then connect with the current Orange Line and run out to Midway.   That would be one train serving both airports.  

Express lanes aside (which was never going to happen) that was essentially all of the plans until Huberman deep sixed the Block 37 tunnel, although there were several iterations, such as tracks bypassing L stations, tracks elevated over the UP NW, etc. Musk's Boring Co. also apparent;y gave up.

[NewFlyerMCI]

18 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Id I really wanted to be creative,  after Clark/Lake I could route the train through the Block 37 hole to connect with the Stare Street subway then connect with the current Orange Line and run out to Midway.   That would be one train serving both airports.

I was having a discussion about this on Twitter the other day, I don't really see a point to this since it'll impede the red line. We just got rid of the only bottleneck on the red line, I don't see the advantage of introducing a new one. Better to just combine Orange/Brown lines. The person I was discussing this with was opposed since Clark/Lake would be skipped, but imo, Jackson works almost as well for a transfer point

[NewFlyerMCI]

17 hours ago, Busjack said:

Express lanes aside (which was never going to happen) that was essentially all of the plans until Huberman deep sixed the Block 37 tunnel, although there were several iterations, such as tracks bypassing L stations, tracks elevated over the UP NW, etc. Musk's Boring Co. also apparent;y gave up.

Speaking of bringing back "segments" and the UP, bring back the NW Passage

[Busjack]

6 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I was having a discussion about this on Twitter the other day, I don't really see a point to this since it'll impede the red line. We just got rid of the only bottleneck on the red line, I don't see the advantage of introducing a new one. Better to just combine Orange/Brown lines. The person I was discussing this with was opposed since Clark/Lake would be skipped, but imo, Jackson works almost as well for a transfer point

There was something like that proposed with respect to the Circle line proposal about 18 years ago, with Brown linked to both Pink and Orange, which might have balanced it, but, as you recognized, getting to Clark/Lake would be a problem. Orange line flipping to Kimball now provides some similar trips.

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I was having a discussion about this on Twitter the other day, I don't really see a point to this since it'll impede the red line. We just got rid of the only bottleneck on the red line, I don't see the advantage of introducing a new one. Better to just combine Orange/Brown lines. The person I was discussing this with was opposed since Clark/Lake would be skipped, but imo, Jackson works almost as well for a transfer point

I have to disagree with you here.  First, even though I said it was my idea, the fact is the Block 37 station was built with the intent of routing trains from the Blue Line subway to the Red Line subway to connect with the Orange Line.   Rge bottleneck you refer to being downtown is no different than the "bottleneck " that occurs everyday that we call the Loop,  except the Loop has 5 lines and this would only have 2.   Also, the O'Hare express train wouldn't have the frequency that the Brown Line has.  The Brown line trains run as frequently as the Red Line trains.  The frequencies caused the Clark Junction delays not the route 

Thru routing Brown and Orange Lines would be problematic.   First rge Brown Line runs more than twice as often as the Irange.  Swxibd one side of the Loop possibly would have to lose  service.  Would NB trains run Wabash and Lake with SB trains running Wells and Can Buren?  What happens to your Blue Orange transfer at Clark and Lake?

Like I said before, an express train using the reversible express lanes on the Kennedy won't happen, even though u think it would cost the least to build.  An express from at least Jefferson Park,  if not O'Hare  needs to happen.  Having one trains serving both airports also taps into a market.   There are passengers everyday that fly into one airport that have to connect at the other and there are people who fly into one airport but their hotel is vary close to the other airport  

[NewFlyerMCI]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I have to disagree with you here.  First, even though I said it was my idea, the fact is the Block 37 station was built with the intent of routing trains from the Blue Line subway to the Red Line subway to connect with the Orange Line.   Rge bottleneck you refer to being downtown is no different than the "bottleneck " that occurs everyday that we call the Loop,  except the Loop has 5 lines and this would only have 2.   Also, the O'Hare express train wouldn't have the frequency that the Brown Line has.  The Brown line trains run as frequently as the Red Line trains.  The frequencies caused the Clark Junction delays not the route 

Thru routing Brown and Orange Lines would be problematic.   First rge Brown Line runs more than twice as often as the Irange.  Swxibd one side of the Loop possibly would have to lose  service.  Would NB trains run Wabash and Lake with SB trains running Wells and Can Buren?  What happens to your Blue Orange transfer at Clark and Lake?

Like I said before, an express train using the reversible express lanes on the Kennedy won't happen, even though u think it would cost the least to build.  An express from at least Jefferson Park,  if not O'Hare  needs to happen.  Having one trains serving both airports also taps into a market.   There are passengers everyday that fly into one airport that have to connect at the other and there are people who fly into one airport but their hotel is vary close to the other airport  

That's still +1 bottleneck that didn't exist before, for both lines, regardless of how it comes to be

I also don't see how sending half of Blue Line trains (since it would have to be the UIC runs that would then go to midway) isn't just as many trains as the Brown Line. There's really only one hour of peak where Brown is running literally double the trains, and tbh Orange Line needs a frequency boost (although maybe not that much, and 24 hr service (since it basically operates 20-21 hrs out of the day)), it would induce a little bit of ridership. Granted, the rest would have to come via upzoning and redevelopment, so that's not the best solution.

In regards to the Loop, a combined Brown/Orange should operate via S & W sides of the loop, or switch with Green. As I stated, Clark/Lake would be skipped in one of these scenarios, but Jackson is an acceptable substitute, especially considering that it's free just like State/Lake to the Red Line. 

All that being said, the crux of my point is this: Combined Orange/Brown is no less problematic than combined Blue/Orange, and is easier to do. I'm not seriously advocating for any of this (except your last paragraph about an O'Hare express, that I agree with) except 24hr Orange Line service.

[Sam92]

57 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

That's still +1 bottleneck that didn't exist before, for both lines, regardless of how it comes to be

I also don't see how sending half of Blue Line trains (since it would have to be the UIC runs that would then go to midway) isn't just as many trains as the Brown Line. There's really only one hour of peak where Brown is running literally double the trains, and tbh Orange Line needs a frequency boost (although maybe not that much, and 24 hr service (since it basically operates 20-21 hrs out of the day)), it would induce a little bit of ridership. Granted, the rest would have to come via upzoning and redevelopment, so that's not the best solution.

In regards to the Loop, a combined Brown/Orange should operate via S & W sides of the loop, or switch with Green. As I stated, Clark/Lake would be skipped in one of these scenarios, but Jackson is an acceptable substitute, especially considering that it's free just like State/Lake to the Red Line. 

All that being said, the crux of my point is this: Combined Orange/Brown is no less problematic than combined Blue/Orange, and is easier to do. I'm not seriously advocating for any of this (except your last paragraph about an O'Hare express, that I agree with) except 24hr Orange Line service.

Wild idea. During times where brown demand out weighs the Orange line you can always alternate between full route brownages and terminate unnecessary browns around the loop. Wells and van Buren is honestly more business oriented which hasn't come back as strong so I'd opt for the brownages to use lake and Wabash. You keep the in station transfer at Clark/lake to Blue which is more attractive and less confusing to a tourist, off peak when Browns aren't terminating around the loop you can transfer to Pink Line trains for wells/Van Buren service. Best to serve the busier part of the loop. I'd have a hypothetical O'Hare express Run express from Jefferson Park to Chicago then run to UIC Halsted to turn around since the regular blue will use IMD at some point. I feel like A transfer to Orange is good enough. The orange line to midway Is pretty fast, it's the blue line that really feels like you're going out of state just to get to O'Hare and could use a faster service. The reason I'm saying stop and Chicago and grand is to give riders a transfer to streerville for the hotels over there via 66 and 65. Going to UIC helps gives a someone that has to go to the suburbs from Union station a connection. A bonus, students leaving the campus for holidays get the benefit of a chance to board the airport express from the east side of the campus.

[artthouwill]

34 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

That's still +1 bottleneck that didn't exist before, for both lines, regardless of how it comes to be

I also don't see how sending half of Blue Line trains (since it would have to be the UIC runs that would then go to midway) isn't just as many trains as the Brown Line. There's really only one hour of peak where Brown is running literally double the trains, and tbh Orange Line needs a frequency boost (although maybe not that much, and 24 hr service (since it basically operates 20-21 hrs out of the day)), it would induce a little bit of ridership. Granted, the rest would have to come via upzoning and redevelopment, so that's not the best solution.

In regards to the Loop, a combined Brown/Orange should operate via S & W sides of the loop, or switch with Green. As I stated, Clark/Lake would be skipped in one of these scenarios, but Jackson is an acceptable substitute, especially considering that it's free just like State/Lake to the Red Line. 

All that being said, the crux of my point is this: Combined Orange/Brown is no less problematic than combined Blue/Orange, and is easier to do. I'm not seriously advocating for any of this (except your last paragraph about an O'Hare express, that I agree with) except 24hr Orange Line service.

The Brown/Orange combo might be easier to do,  but the vision was to have an express train from O'Hare that would use the Block 37 station  and then the Red Line subway to connect to the Orange Line.   This combined route probably would have gotten a different color name ( silver?l) but the only things that happened were a tunnel started being built from the Blue line subway and under Block 37.  That prompted the closing of the Red Line Washington Station and the underground tunnel that connected the Washington Red Line station with the Washington Blue Line station.   The Block 37 site is built sans a subway station and a hotel.   Obviously the most important aspect of the project  would be the express tracks.  As @Busjackmentioned, there were talks about building tracks above the UPNW tracks  and the Elon Musk idea ( which wasn't going to work).  The vision was pretty much intended to connect the 2 airports with the O'Hare portion having express service.   As I have stated before,  I think that cheapest and most doable option is to build the express tracks in the express lanes of the Kennedy.   We all know that's not going to happen because it's a political hot potato. But for the sake of discussion,  if these express trains ran at 6 minute intervals peak or at Orange Line intervals, that frequency wouldn't create bottlenecks like the Clark Junction.   For years Clark Junction wasn't an issue because Ravenswood trains ran at 7 5 minute intervals. The problem started when Brown Line intervals became nearly equal to Red Line intervals. Add to that the fact that these trains wait for each other at Belmont which doesn't happen anywhere else other than Fullerton. 

There's no purpose for combining Brown and Orange and I know you weren't advocating for that.  But obviously the city felt the same way about an express train from O'Hare to downtown and out to Midway.  The costs were and will continue to be astronomical unless there's some existing infrastructure that can reduce the costs. There's not enough space to build next to the UP tracks so the only in place infrastructure i can think of is the Kennedy Express lanes.  I suppose if it came to that or not building an O'Hare express train, it won't be built 

[Busjack]

56 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

...All that being said, the crux of my point is this: Combined Orange/Brown is no less problematic than combined Blue/Orange, and is easier to do. I'm not seriously advocating for any of this (except your last paragraph about an O'Hare express, that I agree with) except 24hr Orange Line service.

They weren't going to combine the Blue and Orange lines. They were going to run 2-car luxury trains made up of proposed 5631-5714 on 15 minute headways, on routes I described above. At various points, Carole Brown justified the tunnel as providing another link between the Blue Line and the rest of the system, then Huberman ditched using the tunnel, and CTA directed Bombardier to make them regular cars.

 

If this fantasy had ever come to fruition, a train each way every 15 minutes would not have caused the bottleneck that a northbound Brown Line train every 3 to 8 minutes would.

 

 

 

[artthouwill]

4 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Wild idea. During times where brown demand out weighs the Orange line you can always alternate between full route brownages and terminate unnecessary browns around the loop. Wells and van Buren is honestly more business oriented which hasn't come back as strong so I'd opt for the brownages to use lake and Wabash. You keep the in station transfer at Clark/lake to Blue which is more attractive and less confusing to a tourist, off peak when Browns aren't terminating around the loop you can transfer to Pink Line trains for wells/Van Buren service. Best to serve the busier part of the loop. I'd have a hypothetical O'Hare express Run express from Jefferson Park to Chicago then run to UIC Halsted to turn around since the regular blue will use IMD at some point. I feel like A transfer to Orange is good enough. The orange line to midway Is pretty fast, it's the blue line that really feels like you're going out of state just to get to O'Hare and could use a faster service. The reason I'm saying stop and Chicago and grand is to give riders a transfer to streerville for the hotels over there via 66 and 65. Going to UIC helps gives a someone that has to go to the suburbs from Union station a connection. A bonus, students leaving the campus for holidays get the benefit of a chance to board the airport express from the east side of the campus.

I suppose Express trains could terminate at UIC    Passengers already transfer between Blue and Orange at Clark and Lake.  I don't mind running Express from Jefferson Park.   I just wish there was some way to build Express tracks between JP and downtown.   The only thing I disagree with is I would have the Express zone go to Clark and Lake.  Most travelers from O'Hare that stay at hotels near the Mag Mile transfer to the Red Line either at Washington or Jacksin.  They can use the pedals at mezzanine level and elevators or escalators to help with luggage.  I don't believe Chicago/Milwaukee is ADA compliant and navigating stairs with luggage might be a challenge    At least Chicago =State is ADA compliant and a short (and a little safer) walk rather than standing at Chucago/Milwaukee/Ogden waiting for a bus trying to figure out what street is what.  Plus the transfer is free between rail lines. I think someone suggested building bypass tracks at stations, but I think it sliws down both express and local service.  Express trains need their own tracks in an express zone