Bringing Back a Route and/or Segment

[Sam92]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

This sounds crazy, but I bet ridership would improve even a little bit if the 28 went to CUS via Washington/Madison. The J14 always has a huge group of riders get off at Madison/Wabash. The business/commerce in the loop is really dedicated to the north and west sides, and it shows in the routes. Farther away you get from State and Washington, the less frequent bus service gets. On any given Sunday, Wash/Madison has 5 bus routes along the entire corridor, so at least 1 bus every 5-8 minutes. Adams/Jackson has 2, and one of those routes don't even run the full corridor. Any route that goes that way is doomed to have mediocre downtown ridership if that's the only part it serves.

I basically suggested that but with the 26 from union and becoming the new 192 interline. 

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

I remember catching the 14 when the route first started.   I got in at State  and Madison when Washington and Madison were reverse flow.   The bus was already full heading for the South side.   The 6 wasn't full before Jackson.   The 14 was so new there were no roller curtain signs for the route.   That took a few months.   Like you said,  the majority of the south side ridership was north loop. 

Lately even before COVID, the 14 really didn't start crowding until it hits state. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

I remember catching the 14 when the route first started.   I got in at State  and Madison when Washington and Madison were reverse flow.   The bus was already full heading for the South side.   The 6 wasn't full before Jackson.   The 14 was so new there were no roller curtain signs for the route.   That took a few months.   Like you said,  the majority of the south side ridership was north loop. 

Not even just south side traffic, just traffic in the loop in general.

[NewFlyerMCI]

12 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

Lately even before COVID, the 14 really didn't start crowding until it hits state. 

Washington/State to Balbo/Michigan is where the majority of passengers get on in my experience. Washington/State in particular, everyone at that stop is basically waiting for the J14 or 151. 

Washington/Canal (the back OTC entrance) and Washington/LaSalle can have surprising crowds on occasion. On days when I had to get back home from FedEx via Oak Park when Pace wasn't coming (via the "free" UPW rides), there'd be a little 4-7 passenger contingent waiting at Washington/Canal.

[jackathan]

X54, Cicero Express

Not a big fan of the split routes 54 and 54B considering that both routes are assigned to the same garage. I see no point of separating both routes when they could easily be consolidated into one route. Look at 9 Ashland, it runs full trips between Clark/Belle Plaine and 95th/Ashland (103rd/Beverly, during rush periods); and 49 Western, which also run full trips between Berwyn and 79th.

[artthouwill]

3 hours ago, jackathan said:

X54, Cicero Express

Not a big fan of the split routes 54 and 54B considering that both routes are assigned to the same garage. I see no point of separating both routes when they could easily be consolidated into one route. Look at 9 Ashland, it runs full trips between Clark/Belle Plaine and 95th/Ashland (103rd/Beverly, during rush periods); and 49 Western, which also run full trips between Berwyn and 79th.

A few problems here.

There's the 54A N Cicero/Skokie that once existed ( does it still exist ?)  Zbetwee Montrose and Dempster Yellow Line.  Combining the 2 routes would make it extremely long.

The 54 and 54B don't run at the same frequency nor do they carry the same amount of passenger traffic 

Before Archer closed in 2096, Archer operated the 54B 

Using your login,  the 8 and the 8A should be combined ubti one route since they both operate out of 77th.  But again they don't have the same frequency,  passenger loads, and service hours. 

The 48 is a shared route between 74th and North Park.   The 9 used to be shared between 74th and Limits before the closing of the latter.  The 8 was also shared with Limits. 

Pulaski is split as well as Damen 

[BusHunter]

Well I would terminate #54B at midway and Pace could serve further south. Then maybe you could run a #54 south to midway. Probably it needs to go no further than montrose though going north. If they could figure out a way for it to serve the blue line, it could help it. Maybe run it to the #54b turnaround on irving pk blue line and up the kennedy to montrose to serve that stop going south turn left onto cicero/montrose and they improved it without having to go to jeff pk. 

[ChicagoNova]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

The 48 is a shared route between 74th and North Park.   

48 South Damen is solely taken care of by 74th as it operates between Western Orange Line Station & Damen/87th. 50 Damen is solely taken care of by North Park as it operates between Edgewater/Clark & 35th Orange Line Station. 49 Western is spit between North Park & 74th Garages.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

A few problems here.

There's the 54A N Cicero/Skokie that once existed ( does it still exist ?)  Zbetwee Montrose and Dempster Yellow Line.  Combining the 2 routes would make it extremely long.

The 54 and 54B don't run at the same frequency nor do they carry the same amount of passenger traffic 

.....

Using your logi[c]  the 8 and the 8A should be combined ubti one route since they both operate out of 77th.  But again they don't have the same frequency,  passenger loads, and service hours. 

...

54A still exists. Pace was going to take it over north of Jefferson Park, but said it didn't have the resources to do so.

The other issue no longer seems an issue, as CTA now does a lot of short turning. Remember the discussion of 145 no longer being needed because 146 could do its short trips, some LSD trips starting at Randolph/Michigan, etc. You now have 4 split between Chicago State U and 115th on an uneven basis.

14 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Well I would terminate #54B at midway and Pace could serve further south. Then maybe you could run a #54 south to midway. ...

Could be done. There at least used to be a sign to take any Pace bus other than 386 to Ford City. Only question would be whether the 15 minute interval would be sufficient to handle the passenger load.

[Busjack]

11 minutes ago, ChicagoNova said:

48 South Damen is solely taken care of by 74th as it operates between Western Orange Line Station & Damen/87th. 50 Damen is solely taken care of by North Park as it operates between Edgewater/Clark & 35th Orange Line Station. 49 Western is spit between North Park & 74th Garages.

Again shows how garage assignments don't determine routes. 49 was split between NP and 69th in the 1970s, then went to Archer, and then went back to the current split. To me, the split made more sense, unless there was some reason to put on the bus stop signs that X49 ran between either Berwyn or 79th to Archer after 7 p.m.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, ChicagoNova said:

48 South Damen is solely taken care of by 74th as it operates between Western Orange Line Station & Damen/87th. 50 Damen is solely taken care of by North Park as it operates between Edgewater/Clark & 35th Orange Line Station. 49 Western is spit between North Park & 74th Garages.

Typo.  I meant 49 not 48  

[YoungBusLover]

8 hours ago, jackathan said:

X54, Cicero Express

Not a big fan of the split routes 54 and 54B considering that both routes are assigned to the same garage. I see no point of separating both routes when they could easily be consolidated into one route. Look at 9 Ashland, it runs full trips between Clark/Belle Plaine and 95th/Ashland (103rd/Beverly, during rush periods); and 49 Western, which also run full trips between Berwyn and 79th.

The recovery time is one thing that concerns me about merging both routes into one. Cicero is a heavier truck route corridor south of Cermak and if any accidents happen or freight trains come into play you'll have uneven service. Take the 53A for example if you get caught by a freight train near 33rd and it either stalls out or is extremely long you'll be delayed in excess of 30-40 minutes at times and even without the freight train just Cicero it is a heavy truck corridor south of 31st. Traffic during the day on those two streets alone don't compare to Ashland or Halsted. The X54 should be reinstated to solve that problem. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:01 AM, BusHunter said:

Well I would terminate #54B at midway and Pace could serve further south. Then maybe you could run a #54 south to midway. Probably it needs to go no further than montrose though going north. If they could figure out a way for it to serve the blue line, it could help it. Maybe run it to the #54b turnaround on irving pk blue line and up the kennedy to montrose to serve that stop going south turn left onto cicero/montrose and they improved it without having to go to jeff pk. 

People need access to the shopping centers the 54B serves (such as that Target) and transfers with the 67 & 79 are critical. 54B or 54 extension, a route needs to end at Ford City.

On 2/22/2022 at 7:05 AM, artthouwill said:

The 54 and 54B don't run at the same frequency nor do they carry the same amount of passenger traffic 

 

On 2/22/2022 at 11:33 AM, YoungBusLover said:

The recovery time is one thing that concerns me about merging both routes into one. Cicero is a heavier truck route corridor south of Cermak and if any accidents happen or freight trains come into play you'll have uneven service. Take the 53A for example if you get caught by a freight train near 33rd and it either stalls out or is extremely long you'll be delayed in excess of 30-40 minutes at times and even without the freight train just Cicero it is a heavy truck corridor south of 31st. Traffic during the day on those two streets alone don't compare to Ashland or Halsted. The X54 should be reinstated to solve that problem. 

While I think the 54 & 54B could stand to be combined (the point about both routes running out of the same garages was a good one), this is one idea that would probably definitely need to be trialed to know for certain, there's a lot of factors. The gap btwn 31st & 47th, and 63rd & 71st/73rd, I think would balance out most freight delays, and mitigate an extension of that length.

That said, I've been to Cicero/24th Pl a couple of times, and while anecdotal, I didn't see a lot of cross transferring btwn 54 & 54B. I think it might be more prudent to reroute the 54B to Cicero/18th to better serve the Pink Line (and the 18). Ultimately, I'm in favor of combining the routes, but I can see why it wouldn't happen. 54A needs to remain separate.

[artthouwill]

5 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

People need access to the shopping centers the 54B serves (such as that Target) and transfers with the 67 & 79 are critical. 54B or 54 extension, a route needs to end at Ford City.

 

While I think the 54 & 54B could stand to be combined (the point about both routes running out of the same garages was a good one), this is one idea that would probably definitely need to be trialed to know for certain, there's a lot of factors. The gap btwn 31st & 47th, and 63rd & 71st/73rd, I think would balance out most freight delays, and mitigate an extension of that length.

That said, I've been to Cicero/24th Pl a couple of times, and while anecdotal, I didn't see a lot of cross transferring btwn 54 & 54B. I think it might be more prudent to reroute the 54B to Cicero/18th to better serve the Pink Line (and the 18). Ultimately, I'm in favor of combining the routes, but I can see why it wouldn't happen. 54A needs to remain separate.

I think there's plenty of shopping between Cermak and 35th that passengers south of 43rd could access,  including a Walmart just south of 21st.  If Pace could Stagger schedules, a nice frequency of service south of Midway is plausible.   Assuming 30 minutes frequency for each route, a 379 could leave Midway at :00 and :39, a 383 could leave at :10 and :40 and a 385 could leave at :20 and :50.  The 384 which shares some routing with the 379 could leave at :15 and :45 giving those along 79th between Cicero and Ridgeland 15 minute frequencies.  With no CTA service,  these routes would have to serve Ford City.  

Oh for that Orange Line extension!

[Busjack]

26 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

.. If Pace could Stagger schedules, a nice frequency of service south of Midway is plausible.   Assuming 30 minutes frequency for each route, a 379 could leave Midway at :00 and :39, a 383 could leave at :10 and :40 and a 385 could leave at :20 and :50.  The 384 which shares some routing with the 379 could leave at :15 and :45 giving those along 79th between Cicero and Ridgeland 15 minute frequencies.  With no CTA service,  these routes would have to serve Ford City.  

...

The usual problem is that most of the Pace routes are interlined, although there is usually a bus or 2 sitting in the terminal away from the boarding area.

[NewFlyerMCI]

51 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I think there's plenty of shopping between Cermak and 35th that passengers south of 43rd could access,  including a Walmart just south of 21st.  If Pace could Stagger schedules, a nice frequency of service south of Midway is plausible.   Assuming 30 minutes frequency for each route, a 379 could leave Midway at :00 and :39, a 383 could leave at :10 and :40 and a 385 could leave at :20 and :50.  The 384 which shares some routing with the 379 could leave at :15 and :45 giving those along 79th between Cicero and Ridgeland 15 minute frequencies.  With no CTA service,  these routes would have to serve Ford City.  

Oh for that Orange Line extension!

While many of the same shopping center exists btwn Cermak & 31st on Cicero and 73rd & 76th on Cicero, that still leaves passengers on the 79 & 67 in the lurch if they’re trying to go north on Cicero. The 382 is the only Pace route to enter the mall and I’m not sure that route is coming back. Midway has the space to construct additional bus bays if extending the 67 & 79 (and also ending the 54(B) there), but that seems like a lot to do when you could just preserve the existing alignment instead.

Spot on about that Orange Line extension. That should be CTA’s 2nd rail priority, after Congress branch rehabilitation.

[NewFlyerMCI]

29 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The usual problem is that most of the Pace routes are interlined, although there is usually a bus or 2 sitting in the terminal away from the boarding area.

I’ve seen every Pace at midway route become another Pace route except for the 382 & 386. And that might be because I just haven’t seen it happen for the 386, since the 382 hasn’t been running while I was a regular commuter at Midway

[jajuan]

On 2/11/2022 at 4:25 AM, Master58 said:

Easier way for students to get to the north side from the south side.  Without having to transfer to another route or take the the red line.  

That may be, but as others explained students just weren't riding the route. @artthouwill explains it below as to some of the reasons why ridership wasn't there. And as @Busjack mentioned, 173 wasn't a route exclusively paid for by CTA. It was funded by U of C, and since 2012 CTA has been adamant that the entities contracting with CTA to run those outside subsidized routes pay a larger share on those subsidies. This is also why 132 recently disappeared and why the 10 was reduced to running only during the summer between Memorial Day and Labor Day. Metra (if I remember Busjack's info on the funding source correctly) didn't see a need to keep paying for the 132 for the light passenger the route had, and Museum of Science and Industry didn't want to pay for the 10 outside the present timeframe that it currently runs. 

On 2/11/2022 at 8:53 AM, artthouwill said:

No one hardly rode 173 which is why the CRA and the University cut it.  Not only was the ridership nonexistent from Hyde Park. It actually duplicated the 151 to Belmont that hardly anyone took.  Unless students overwhelmingly demand it, it's not coming back. 

 

On 2/11/2022 at 9:34 AM, Anthony Devera said:

Much of the old 144 routing is covered by the current 148, so if the 144 is brought back, the 148 should be discontinued. This actually might make sense; the 148 currently makes a weird set of turns at Lawrence, so straightening it into the 144 routing could make things simpler. If having the 144, 146, and 136 is too much service on Marine, the 136 can be moved to Clarendon between Irving Park and Lawrence, then run via Lawrence and Sheridan to Sheridan/Foster, then continue via its current routing on Sheridan.

As for the 145, it basically duplicated the 146 south of Irving Park (and to some extent, south of Wilson). All the sign glitches are for the 146 short turns to Grace (close to Irving Park), which covers the shared portion of the 145/146. I'd say instead of bringing back the 145, if people on Wilson really want a direct bus to Downtown, the 135 could be extended west via Wilson, restoring its original routing before 2003.

Well remember 148 has those extra turns compared to the 144 because running on Clarendon has always been the 148's routing. It wasn't originally created to supplement the 146 as it now does. It was created to run alongside the 145, which like the 144 was eliminated in the 2012 cuts. And as Busjack pointed out, the main reason the 148 was created was because the folks living in the highrises along the Inner Drive didn't like CTA's experiment of having the 145 enter outer Lake Shore Drive at Irving Park instead of Belmont. They were squawking that half their service was cut on the Inner Drive despite the fact that CTA actually beefed up the runs on the 146 when they had 145 staying on the Outer Drive up to Irving. So in April of 2004, the 148 was born as a rush period peak direction only route that supplemented 145. 148 kept the express zone up to Irving Park while 145 went back to sharing the express zone of the 146. As referred to by Busjack, the added caveat was that when the 148 ran, that same direction of the 145 had no service north of Irving Park since 145 and 148 were also interlined and off-peak direction 145 needed to run on a lower frequency than the 148. So in AM rush, SB 145 only ran from Irving Park/Inner Lake Shore to downtown and PM rush NB 145 ran from downtown only up to Grace. Those Grace short turns flipped over to 146 when 145 got the ax. Ironically enough, the Inner Drive highrise residents going to and from Michigan Ave still ended reduced only to the 146 anyway after CTA's streamlining of the north Lake Shore expresses to keep beefing up service on 147 budget neutral.

[Busjack]

On 2/23/2022 at 2:12 PM, NewFlyerMCI said:

I’ve seen every Pace at midway route become another Pace route except for the 382 & 386. And that might be because I just haven’t seen it happen for the 386, since the 382 hasn’t been running while I was a regular commuter at Midway

386 is unlikely, because it doesn't go to Ford City and has to coordinate with 63W.

@jajuanis essentially correct, except the private parties had to pay all of the deficit (U of C was phased in).

IIRC, Wrigley was paying for 132, but closed its Goose Is;and operation (apparently still a Mars corporate office there).

It was mentioned that the U of C Arts Block shuttle now covers 174. There is a South Loop shuttle to the Roosevelt station, apparently to provide a safer transfer point to the Red, Green, and Orange lines, and a substitute to 173.

[Anthony Devera]

3 hours ago, jajuan said:

Well remember 148 has those extra turns compared to the 144 because running on Clarendon has always been the 148's routing. It wasn't originally created to supplement the 146 as it now does. It was created to run alongside the 145, which like the 144 was eliminated in the 2012 cuts. And as Busjack pointed out, the main reason the 148 was created was because the folks living in the highrises along the Inner Drive didn't like CTA's experiment of having the 145 enter outer Lake Shore Drive at Irving Park instead of Belmont. They were squawking that half their service was cut on the Inner Drive despite the fact that CTA actually beefed up the runs on the 146 when they had 145 staying on the Outer Drive up to Irving. So in April of 2004, the 148 was born as a rush period peak direction only route that supplemented 145. 148 kept the express zone up to Irving Park while 145 went back to sharing the express zone of the 146. As referred to by Busjack, the added caveat was that when the 148 ran, that same direction of the 145 had no service north of Irving Park since 145 and 148 were also interlined and off-peak direction 145 needed to run on a lower frequency than the 148. So in AM rush, SB 145 only ran from Irving Park/Inner Lake Shore to downtown and PM rush NB 145 ran from downtown only up to Grace. Those Grace short turns flipped over to 146 when 145 got the ax. Ironically enough, the Inner Drive highrise residents going to and from Michigan Ave still ended reduced only to the 146 anyway after CTA's streamlining of the north Lake Shore expresses to keep beefing up service on 147 budget neutral.

Yes, I understand that the 148 was originally created as a rush-hour supplement to the 145, and it evolved into its current form when the 145 and 144 were discontinued. What I wonder is why CTA made this modification to the 148 instead of keeping the 144 and axing the old 145 and 148. Were there that many people on Clarendon that needed a direct ride to Michigan Ave?

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, Anthony Devera said:

Yes, I understand that the 148 was originally created as a rush-hour supplement to the 145, and it evolved into its current form when the 145 and 144 were discontinued. What I wonder is why CTA made this modification to the 148 instead of keeping the 144 and axing the old 145 and 148. Were there that many people on Clarendon that needed a direct ride to Michigan Ave?

Considering that 148 was pulled off michigan the only thing I can assume was 136, and 146 adequately served marine drive enough without 144 so 148 was kept because Clarendon probably was a heavy enough segment ridership wise in the rush hour plus retained the spread out pick up zones from the 2003 realignemt

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Anthony Devera said:

Yes, I understand that the 148 was originally created as a rush-hour supplement to the 145, and it evolved into its current form when the 145 and 144 were discontinued. What I wonder is why CTA made this modification to the 148 instead of keeping the 144 and axing the old 145 and 148. 148 goes expressWere there that man1 and y people on Clarendon that needed a direct ride to Michigan Ave?

It was mostly that 145 and 148 were pulled off Wilson. Both ran on Clarendon, so they kept 148 that way. Apparently there are enough passengers on Clarendon.

146 covers 144, except that 144 went express at Irving Park.  148 goes express from Irving Park, but I  doubt that there were many passengers on Marine Dr. south of Lawrence to justify 2 routes.

[jajuan]

35 minutes ago, Busjack said:

It was mostly that 145 and 148 were pulled off Wilson. Both ran on Clarendon, so they kept 148 that way. Apparently there are enough passengers on Clarendon.

146 covers 144, except that 144 went express at Irving Park.  148 goes express from Irving Park, but I  doubt that there were many passengers on Marine Dr. south of Lawrence to justify 2 routes.

Your last point reminds me of my thought that taking 145 and 148 eliminated the justification for having two routes that serve Michigan Ave running along Inner Lake Shore (the detail of Michigan Ave added to remind everyone else that 134, 135 and 136 still exist and provide similar service functions in the Inner Drive/Marine Drive and Clarendon corridors for riders from along La Salle as what 143, 146 and 148  does for those coming from Michigan Ave and/or State Street). Setting aside CTA was seeking to eliminate a service duplication it created by running 78 on Wilson starting at Clark instead of Broadway, this in conjunction with needed a way to add more buses to 147 without increasing budget costs made a better explanation for elimination of 145 than the more dubious and misleading statement that 145 was low ridership. And if 148 was being kept but pulled from Wilson, that eliminated justification for keeping 144. Essentially the reasons behind the eliminations make more sense when the reasons for all the moves made on the Michigan Ave Northside expresses outside of needing to free buses for 147 are the reverse of what CTA stated. 

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, jajuan said:

Your last point reminds me of my thought that taking 145 and 148 eliminated the justification for having two routes that serve Michigan Ave running along Inner Lake Shore (the detail of Michigan Ave added to remind everyone else that 134, 135 and 136 still exist and provide similar service functions in the Inner Drive/Marine Drive and Clarendon corridors for riders from along La Salle as what 143, 146 and 148  does for those coming from Michigan Ave and/or State Street). Setting aside CTA was seeking to eliminate a service duplication it created by run on Wilson starting at Clark instead of Broadway, this in conjunction with needed a way to add more buses to 147 without increasing budget costs made a better explanation for elimination of 145 than the more dubious and misleading statement that 145 was low ridership. And if 148 was being kept but pulled from Wilson, that eliminated justification for keeping 144. Essentially the reasons behind the eliminations make more sense when the reasons for all the moves made on the Michigan Ave Northside expresses outside of needing to free buses for 147 are the reverse of what CTA stated. 

The only thing I remember is that people between Belmont and Irving Park comp;ained about the first restructuring; nobody on the lakefront complained about the second.

Only real saving during rush hour was cutting 144, as 148 is still running (just not to Wilson/Ravenswood) and the Grace trips were picked up by 146.

[artthouwill]

41 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The only thing I remember is that people between Belmont and Irving Park comp;ained about the first restructuring; nobody on the lakefront complained about the second.

Only real saving during rush hour was cutting 144, as 148 is still running (just not to Wilson/Ravenswood) and the Grace trips were picked up by 146.

The former 144 was the old 146 in that, before the 2003 restructuring,  the 146 entered the Drive at Irving Park while the 145 entered at Belmont.   So it seems odd that when the 146 first replaced the 145 between Belmont and Irving Park that people complained  about having one express Michigan Ave route when they had just one to begin with.