CTA Blue Line Crash at O'Hare

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

I don't, but the issue doesn't seem whether the bumper could withstand the impact, but how fast the train must have been going to be propelled about 10 feet above and 40 feet past it to end up where it did on the escalator. The normal assumption is that the train would have hit the concrete at platform level and crumpled, not fly into the air.

Any physicists out there?

I'm thinking that the fact that the bumper isn't as tall as another L car has something to do with it. If the bumper was, the train might have just been damaged more, but the force would be less likely to move up and forward, as it did here. There's also what cjk177 said below:

I can envision a couple scenarios where shearing of either the front or rear support members could cause the bumper itself to partially colapse, forming into a makeshift ramp. That should become clearer once the cars are removed and the damage underneath can be seen.

In a perfect scenario, the bumper would have stood up to its design limits of 12 MPH (according to BusHunter). But since the train was above that, I think your scenarios make a lot of sense.

[Busjack]

...

EDIT: The additional circumstances are caused by the line cut: longer train, more runs, shorter trackage per run. I'm not saying the line cut caused the accident.

Again similar to the 1977 crash, in that while there is the debate about what the motorman was doing, it is also noted that things were complicated by that the system had not recovered from a prior rerouting of the Evanston Express (now Purple Line) to the Outer Loop tracks.

To get back to sw's point, that account also points out "The way the cab signals originally worked, a motorman had a couple seconds to slow down or stop -- depending on the situation -- when he received a restrictive signal or the train's [brakes] would automatically engage" but also seems to imply that the motorman left the station under a red signal slowly enough that this didn't happen.

[Guest]

Im curious to see what the many cameras that may have captured this accident will show.

[Guest ctafan630]

Whatever caused the first car to jump clear the platform and then get pushed up the escalator is good in this case as the cars themselves weren't crushed, potentially causing more injuries or death.

Also: Looking at some of the pictures(blown up) from the Chicago Tribune, the middle track/impacted train looks like an 8-car set, so in addition to the Logan Sq-Western line cut going on at the time of the accident which would have impacted scheduling for operators, twice as many trips on a shortened line would be tiring, especially close to 3am --- an 8 car set is twice the weight of a 4 car set, normally run at this time and requires a much longer stopping distance. I wonder if the NTSB will be looking at additional circumstances like this caused by the line cut.

EDIT: The additional circumstances are caused by the line cut: longer train, more runs, shorter trackage per run. I'm not saying the line cut caused the accident.

While the Logan - Western cut might be a factor I am not sure how much that played into it. The derailment occured around 3 am. According to the schedule on the CTA site, headways coming into O'hare are every 30 minutes and leaving is every 15. So the amount of traffic at O'hare around that time should be the same as a normal early Mondaymorning. The only exception could be the car length 8 cars instead of 4.

The construction between Logan and Western was schedule to end at 4, so one would think the first full train leaving Ohare to Forest Park would have been between 3:20 am and 3:40 am.

[Guest]

Just heard on the news!!! As Expected, the CTA motorman fell asleep at the controls at the time of the accident!!! Working too many hours!!!

[trainman8119]

People have to realize that all this talk about automatic train stop (what the NTSB has been squalking about forever) is not totally fail safe. That has been demonstrated so much now in recent memory. If it is how everyone envisions, no trains would ever move. Also, realize that the operator "falling asleep" doesn't mean snoring logs. As was the case in New York a couple of months ago, the zone out operators/engineers encounter happens so much because these operators are not machines but human. You can only work so much without fading in and out. Put that in with shift disorder and you can see the scenario. Unfortunately, this op is probably in some deep doo doo whether or not she was incompetent or just overworked.

As for 8 cars, believe it or not, more often than not lately, there are 8 car consists out there all night. On only 3 or 4 occasions in the last 6-8 months have there been 4 car sets. Someone out there has this false belief that running longer trains keeps things clear and therefore run these unnecessary long trains. More trains more often would keep rails clearer, not longer trains. In any event, the fact that there was work going on should have had no effect on the length of the consist.

Finally, I agree that the cameras will probably tell the story. Question is, will we ever see it.

[trainman8119]

I wonder when this train will be leaving ?? (crazy automatic signs)

[jajuan]

I guess the question of the day is a two-parter....

What is happening to the Blue Line equipment? What is wrong with the emergency infrastructure? That's twice in less than six months a major incident involving the Blue Line has occurred(Ghost Train crash 9/30/13, Above Speed crash 3/24/14). I agree with cta5750 about the fact that the train should've been slowed down at least by trip switches, but wasn't. If trip switches did indeed work, the train would've looked something like #3177 at the front when it hit the end of the O-Hare stop, and not flew up onto the platform and escalator.

One has to wonder if the emergency trip switches need a overhaul system-wide. Scariest place something like this could occur would be twenty feet off the ground on an elevated section of track.

My opinion... I know the train emits a high-pitched noise from the Operator cab when the train needs to be slowed(I hear it sometimes when I'm in the 1st car). I think what the CTA should do is put a timing device on this where if the Operator doesn't slow the train down by a set time(say 30 seconds), a onboard device cuts power to the train motor and activates emergency braking while automatically contacting CTA control and the CFD. Maybe this already happens in an emergency(e.g: Operator passes out, etc...), but I don't honestly know. Maybe a "L" insider or Rail Operator would know for sure.

I was thinking the same thing this morning when I heard about this. What indeed is going on with the Blue Line equipment?

According to all the literature, that is exactly what it is supposed to do. Even in the accounts relating to the Forest Park collision, they said the train stopped at each signal, and then inexplicably started again.

If they're saying that the infrastructure was doing its part but the train still kept managing to speed back up again, is it possible that there is a fault in the rail cars themselves that kept things from working together properly?

[Guest ctafan630]

I have a friend that was on the Blue Line hours before the crash and they said, there were blue line trains running from Logan Square express to O'hare. Why would there be a need for express trains that late at night covering that distance?

[garmon757]

My thoughts and prayers towards the victims of this unusual scenario and their families. I'm not trying to jump off this subject but I sometimes ride the blue line back and forth until sunrise when I get off work around one and if I did decided to work late last night then I'll probably been involved of this accident. I'm relieved that there weren't any fatalities but it's just something to think about when it comes to "life". We can't just take it for granted. About the conductor, I can't imagine her continuing her job as a rail operator. Now it is two sides of the story indeed but her being overworked is no excuse for her to inadvertently doze off resulting the train to overshoot the platform. This reminded me of this guy that was operating a four car Metra Electric train to Blue Island and he overshoot the platform at Blue Island at 15 mph resulting the train rammed up the rail barricade (I call it a plunger) in 2011 in which I was on that train. Gratefully, no serious injuries including me nor any structural damages.

[Amtrak41]

Aren't there any timed signals, trip hammers, and trip cocks preceding bumper blocks on CTA ?

The whole point of an effective signals system is to prevent crashes over 10MPH.

[jajuan]

My thoughts and prayers towards the victims of this unusual scenario and their families. I'm not trying to jump off this subject but I sometimes ride the blue line back and forth until sunrise when I get off work around one and if I did decided to work late last night then I'll probably been involved of this accident. I'm relieved that there weren't any fatalities but it's just something to think about when it comes to "life". We can't just take it for granted. About the conductor, I can't imagine her continuing her job as a rail operator. Now it is two sides of the story indeed but her being overworked is no excuse for her to inadvertently doze off resulting the train to overshoot the platform. This reminded me of this guy that was operating a four car Metra Electric train to Blue Island and he overshoot the platform at Blue Island at 15 mph resulting the train rammed up the rail barricade (I call it a plunger) in 2011 in which I was on that train. Gratefully, no serious injuries including me nor any structural damages.

Actually I have to disagree with you a bit with the rail operator because your statement gets down to doing the same scapegoating that management level employees at CTA, and in other industries for that matter, get away with too many doggone times these days. If this poor woman was in fact overworked to the point of falling asleep at the controls, then she shouldn't be the only person taking the brunt of the blame here. Yeah she may likely lose her job, but what happens to the accountability her managers and bosses must be held to for putting her in that position to begin with? If all the blame falls on her then that just leaves those with the power to handle her fellow operators' schedules the opportunity to set up another dynamic where this type of accident or an even worse one happens again because the issue of the higher ups making such chaotic schedules among operators that may have contributed to this accident wouldn't have been addressed. I'm sorry you just can't create schedules for the employees operating the agency's heavier vehicles that leaves room for them to get the proper amount of rest to operate said vehicles safely and then turn around when they have an accident due to your inept scheduling skills and tell them 'This accident is all your fault. Even though our scheduling of how your workweek unfolds may be a contributing factor in what happened, the accident is still all your fault and we're completely blameless.' That's exactly what you're saying when you it's this woman's fault that she fell asleep because of CTA mangaers' ineptitude in creating a a proper schedule that doesn't overwork the workers who operate vehicles that can be potentially dangerous when all the checks and balances don't fall together the way they're supposed to.

[garmon757]

Actually I have to disagree with you a bit with the rail operator because your statement gets down to doing the same scapegoating that management level employees at CTA, and in other industries for that matter, get away with too many doggone times these days. If this poor woman was in fact overworked to the point of falling asleep at the controls, then she shouldn't be the only person taking the brunt of the blame here. Yeah she may likely lose her job, but what happens to the accountability her managers and bosses must be held to for putting her in that position to begin with? If all the blame falls on her then that just leaves those with the power to handle her fellow operators' schedules the opportunity to set up another dynamic where this type of accident or an even worse one happens again because the issue of the higher ups making such chaotic schedules among operators that may have contributed to this accident wouldn't have been addressed. I'm sorry you just can't create schedules for the employees operating the agency's heavier vehicles that leaves room for them to get the proper amount of rest to operate said vehicles safely and then turn around when they have an accident due to your inept scheduling skills and tell them 'This accident is all your fault. Even though our scheduling of how your workweek unfolds may be a contributing factor in what happened, the accident is still all your fault and we're completely blameless.' That's exactly what you're saying when you it's this woman's fault that she fell asleep because of CTA mangaers' ineptitude in creating a a proper schedule that doesn't overwork the workers who operate vehicles that can be potentially dangerous when all the checks and balances don't fall together the way they're supposed to.

And that's cool with me that you disagree. No big deal but think about though, the update from the tribune stated that she'd work a lot of overtime (in which she chose to do that). I'm not fully blaming her because that would put myself in a biased position. That's why I said there are two sides of this story. However, is that going to be an excuse everytime a rail operator or bus driver get into an accident because he/she was tired??? The NTSB can go screw themselves because what the hell they mean that that can only answer questions but not anybody else (CTA). That's not their employees!!! So who gives them the God given right to have full control of this accident???

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

Im curious to see what the many cameras that may have captured this accident will show.

Me too. I don't think the forward facing camera is able to capture the operator's reactions or lack thereof though.

Finally, I agree that the cameras will probably tell the story. Question is, will we ever see it.

That has me thinking: Who would have the right to be able to see the footage besides the NTSB?

[Busjack]

... The NTSB can go screw themselves because what the hell they mean that that can only answer questions but not anybody else (CTA). That's not their employees!!! So who gives them the God given right to have full control of this accident???

Federal law. Somebody has to investigate it (see the NTSB website for a description of its duties), and it sure doesn't look like CTA is capable of investigating the whole lot of accidents that occur on its rail property.

Of course, the big embarrassment to the CTA was when the NTSB investigated the derailment in the Blue Line subway, and discovered that the track inspectors worked maybe an hour or two in an 8 hour day. The head inspector eventually got fired, but not before spending several years crying on TV that he was a scapegoat. Be sure to click on the pdf.

Claypool was at the press conference, but all he had the knowledge to say was that the bus shuttle was working.

And, IMO, CTA wouldn't have had so many inexplicable accidents (most recently the Forest Park one and this one) if it knew what it was doing. They keep saying that there are all sorts of safeguards in the signal system, deadman, and the like, but these accidents started in 1977, because the signal system was not foolproof. At least before that, disasters were because there wasn't a signal system.

Essentially, though, you can't let the inmates police themselves.

[Guest]

Just another in a series of bizarre and stupid mishaps at the CTA. They really need to make some very serious changes to its rail system safety, scheduling, training and other areas! They need to stop pocketing the money and start investing in the safety of the system both on bus and rail! After seeing these rash of accidents, Im very nervous about riding CTA. They are not in the business of safety rather just saving money, cut backs, kickbacks, unaccountability and just total sloppy, incompetent mismanagement!

[garmon757]

Federal law. Somebody has to investigate it (see the NTSB website for a description of its duties), and it sure doesn't look like CTA is capable of investigating the whole lot of accidents that occur on its rail property.

Of course, the big embarrassment to the CTA was when the NTSB investigated the derailment in the Blue Line subway, and discovered that the track inspectors worked maybe an hour or two in an 8 hour day. The head inspector eventually got fired, but not before spending several years crying on TV that he was a scapegoat. Be sure to click on the pdf.

Claypool was at the press conference, but all he had the knowledge to say was that the bus shuttle was working.

And, IMO, CTA wouldn't have had so many inexplicable accidents (most recently the Forest Park one and this one) if it knew what it was doing. They keep saying that there are all sorts of safeguards in the signal system, deadman, and the like, but these accidents started in 1977, because the signal system was not foolproof. At least before that, disasters were because there wasn't a signal system.

Essentially, though, you can't let the inmates police themselves.

Well, I guess if NTSB have the higher authority to investigate this then I'll let it be even though I don't like them. CTA already going downhill as we speak and Claypool deserve a slap in the face for this nonsense. If they keep this nonsense up it's going to end up like a 1977 disaster (God forbid).

[sw4400]

Well, I'm not going to go to either side of the fence here, but on the quote from Union President Kelly that the operator had 17 hours between the two shifts(her last and the one where the accident occurred). She had time to get a few winks in.... the question though is what she done for the past 17 hours in-between... did she go out with friends late night knowing she had to be at work at a certain time rather than go to bed? If that is the case, then it's not the CTA's fault at all, but hers. I've worked shifts where I leave work at 8p and have to be back at 5a the next day, and that's far from 17 hours between shifts(granted I run a supermarket and she operates a train), but still I got through a 8 & 1/2 hour shift on both these days without dozing.

I'm stopping short of saying she was out with friends rather than resting, but it was a Sunday night, and the possibility is there... the only one that'll know for sure is the Operator herself and if she mentions anything to anyone.

[Juniorz]

Hopefully Your New Blue will ease the tension of this as the days move forward. This is an unfortunate event that occurred but thankfully no fatalities occurred. Moving forward, the CTA may need to do some reshuffling within its rail operations as 2 major events have happened on the Blue Line within months of each other and both have not been the best PR for the CTA. Maybe instead of moving forward on a safe elevated line on the Red Line North, CTA should focus on a rapidly aging Blue Line with rapidly aging rail cars. The future plans on the 3200 rehab, Forest Park Renewal & Your New Blue can't come soon enough & probably should be accelerated sooner than later.

[jajuan]

And that's cool with me that you disagree. No big deal but think about though, the update from the tribune stated that she'd work a lot of overtime (in which she chose to do that). I'm not fully blaming her because that would put myself in a biased position. That's why I said there are two sides of this story. However, is that going to be an excuse everytime a rail operator or bus driver get into an accident because he/she was tired??? The NTSB can go screw themselves because what the hell they mean that that can only answer questions but not anybody else (CTA). That's not their employees!!! So who gives them the God given right to have full control of this accident???

I don't look at it as just a flippant excuse. And while she may have chosen to work the extra hours, it still brings up the question of why did CTA allow it to take place? Were they doing enough to make sure she had adequate time off to get her wits back about her? Did she have any prior black marks on her safety record? What was she doing on her off time? It's that last question especially that determines whether yeah she should get all the blame or is about to be scapegoated. And right now we don't know what she was doing before she reported to work, so I still say I'd be careful with being so ready to dump this whole thing all on her lap and being so ready to say that we have an operator who's just trying to make excuses.

UPDATE: And I know that some want to harp on the latest report that she had 17 hours off before her shift in which she had the crash, but the question of how much had she been working before that 17 hours off still has to be answered. And I still contend CTA has to answer why her supervisors and managers were allowing her to work all this overtime if it can be determined that that was a contributing factor to her being so tired as she contended to her union rep. So CTA5750 is correct that CTA itself is still not off the hook here in terms of safety practices. For example, aren't some rail systems operated along similar lines of the airlines in terms of for every certain number of days worked by an operator they get a certain number off to ensure that operator is potentially getting adequate time to stop and rest?

[Busjack]

Well, I'm not going to go to either side of the fence here, but on the quote from Union President Kelly...

There is a more basic issue here...why was Kelly opening his mouth? At noon it was said he was there only to make sure that the operator had representation while being questioned. Then, later in the day he quotes incriminating statements.

In a sense, it is worse than A Rod, as A Rod had lawyers to represent him at disciplinary hearings. Here, the union has already sold her out, or more technically, violated her right to fair representation by the union.

Hopefully Your New Blue will ease the tension of this as the days move forward. This is an unfortunate event that occurred but thankfully no fatalities occurred. Moving forward, the CTA may need to do some reshuffling within its rail operations as 2 major events have happened on the Blue Line within months of each other and both have not been the best PR for the CTA. Maybe instead of moving forward on a safe elevated line on the Red Line North, CTA should focus on a rapidly aging Blue Line with rapidly aging rail cars. The future plans on the 3200 rehab, Forest Park Renewal & Your New Blue can't come soon enough & probably should be accelerated sooner than later.

Other than your first sentence makes sense. The implication from the first is that somehow the usual bread and circuses about the Mayor appearing at a construction project and trying to give the impression that something is getting fixed when it isn't is wearing thin when there are inexplicable events like this splashed all over the TV at the rate they recently have been.

However, on the manners of substance, you have something. Your New Blue is supposed to replace the signal system somewhere, the indication being on the stretch from Jefferson Park to O'Hare. While it was the first to get bidirectional signals, maybe they have worn out on their 30th anniversary.

The wearing out point also reminds me that while places like chicago-l.org had lists of wrecked and mismatched cars, it seemed like the fleets stayed pretty intact during the 1990s and 2000s. A few cars got damaged with stuff like people running the crossing gates on the Ravenswood,but not the real freaky stuff like the 1977 wreck, or a 1976 one at Addison. Then there were these recent two.

But with regard to North Red vs. Blue, it was represented that the bridges on the North Red were about to collapse if that didn't get some work, and the work that it got was represented as only having a short service life until they get the $2-4 billion they say they need to fix that. At the same time, $400 million is only a patchwork for the New Blue, and apparently $500 million wasn't even a patchwork for the Brown. When CTA always has $8 billion in unmet capital needs despite what it spends (and Metra another $10 billion), the system is going to fall apart eventually. That's why I questioned the RTA director of planning and acting executive director's comments yesterday.

[BusHunter]

Heard it through the grapevine, this operator is a new PTO that just transferred over from another position servicer or something like that. She just walked away with a scratch on her chin. In a way I feel for this operator. It's hard to work the overnights, and it looks like it's a case of her being put in a situation she was not prepared for. There were things she could have done to combat fatigue like load your system with caffeine or take some stay alert medication. I've worked alot of overnights myself and it's something you can't really understand unless you've done it. It's particularly hard to sleep in the daytime, so it's easy to become sleep deprived.

An interesting question as well is did the bumper post fail? A train just did exactly what a bumper post was supposed to prevent. Can a train climb the post from a startup position a few feet away? It could have also been that the train was being pushed up the escalator by the other six cars powered up. So alot of different things to look at.

[Busjack]

..So alot of different things to look at.

Especially since the Tribune just posted that someone from the NTSB said that the brakes were engaged and the train was not speeding.

So, unless we buy Mike Payne's theory that momentum lifted the first car 15 feet vertically, I think we have to let them finish the investigation.

[garmon757]

I don't look at it as just a flippant excuse. And while she may have chosen to work the extra hours, it still brings up the question of why did CTA allow it to take place? Were they doing enough to make sure she had adequate time off to get her wits back about her? Did she have any prior black marks on her safety record? What was she doing on her off time? It's that last question especially that determines whether yeah she should get all the blame or is about to be scapegoated. And right now we don't know what she was doing before she reported to work, so I still say I'd be careful with being so ready to dump this whole thing all on her lap and being so ready to say that we have an operator who's just trying to make excuses.

UPDATE: And I know that some want to harp on the latest report that she had 17 hours off before her shift in which she had the crash, but the question of how much had she been working before that 17 hours off still has to be answered. And I still contend CTA has to answer why her supervisors and managers were allowing her to work all this overtime if it can be determined that that was a contributing factor to her being so tired as she contended to her union rep. So CTA5750 is correct that CTA itself is still not off the hook here in terms of safety practices. For example, aren't some rail systems operated along similar lines of the airlines in terms of for every certain number of days worked by an operator they get a certain number off to ensure that operator is potentially getting adequate time to stop and rest?

I know we all are looking to key answers about her but I think it's more than just her working a tough amount of overtime. My problem about the news about it is that they don't want to tell us everything. They just tell us what we want to hear. No, the CTA is definitely not off the hook because somebody in that bunch is going to step forward whether CTA like it or not. I just have a feeling about that but this is a huge jigsaw puzzle ready to be fix piece by piece.

[sw4400]

NTSB preliminary review.... automatic emergency braking system failed to stop the train. The system went into action as the train headed toward the end of the platform but didn't stop it. Story