7900-series Nova LFS - Updates

[BusHunter]

7 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Essentially, there is a warranty, and it appears that Cummins is the only one that makes an EPA 2013 compliant bus diesel engine.

Yeah, but as a company you don't want that liability. What if someone got hurt. So Cummins is the only engine manufacturer? I find that hard to believe, not saying your wrong. Then who will build the electric bus motor?

[Busjack]

5 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Yeah, but as a company you don't want that liability. What if someone got hurt. So Cummins is the only engine manufacturer? I find that hard to believe, not saying your wrong. Then who will build the electric bus motor?

I said EPA compliant diesel bus engines. That has nothing to do with electric motors.

Navistar got into a stink that its strategy that didn't use Ad Blu didn't work. Detroit Diesel is now part of Daimler and only mentions its  engines in connection with Daimler trucks.

[BusHunter]

31 minutes ago, Busjack said:

I said EPA compliant diesel bus engines. That has nothing to do with electric motors.

Navistar got into a stink that its strategy that didn't use Ad Blu didn't work. Detroit Diesel is now part of Daimler and only mentions its  engines in connection with Daimler trucks.

Yeah but essentially if you build a non EPA equipped engine who could use it? That's like saying you built a new car but it can't pass the emissions because it uses a setup from the 80's and it has to pass a 2016 epa standard. So your basically telling me all buses in north america are Cummins at least the ones built this year?

[Busjack]

23 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Yeah but essentially if you build a non EPA equipped engine who could use it? That's like saying you built a new car but it can't pass the emissions because it uses a setup from the 80's and it has to pass a 2016 epa standard. So your basically telling me all buses in north america are Cummins at least the ones built this year?

It looks that way. Nova had an announcement that it was partnering with Cummins. New Flyer specs say Cummins (except, to get to a prior point, Semens electric motors).

Update: Also Eldorado National.

[Busjack]

New route on maths22's tracker:

8220 206: Evanston Circulator 206 -401 F (Forest Glen)

[jajuan]

7 hours ago, Busjack said:

I figured they couldn't have been put completely off base by the fleet number being on the wrong side. There is also a nasty group of red light cameras around Foster/Higgins/Nagle, I believe.

Good eye. I did not catch that the fleet number was placed on the left instead of the right side. So Garmon's photo caught two decorative defects instead of just one: this and the upside down license plate.

[Busjack]

4 hours ago, jajuan said:

Good eye. I did not catch that the fleet number was placed on the left instead of the right side. So Garmon's photo caught two decorative defects instead of just one: this and the upside down license plate.

Actually, Garmon had caught the fleet number issue on Tuesday,.

[sw4400]

I wonder if the license plate and decal have other meaning. I think they come in like that purposely for another reason. CTA has to go over the buses and accept or decline them, correct? Well, the decal on the back is probably temporarily applied there on the left. When accepted, the decal is moved to the right and permanently applied. The license plate that's upside down for the same reason.... when accepted, it's turned right-side up. If the bus is declined due to defect, etc.... the number on the back is removed as well as the plates and Nova will most likely have to call for a flatbed to haul the defective unit back to Plattsburgh, or send a Operator to Chicago with temporary New York plates so the bus can be driven back, unless it's unsafe to drive due to defect.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, sw4400 said:

The license plate that's upside down for the same reason...

The license plate is an Illinois license plate, affixed by CTA. It would have a transporter tag issued by NYS while in transit.

1 hour ago, sw4400 said:

When accepted, the decal is moved to the right and permanently applied.

Nobody is going to mess up a paint job over that.

1 hour ago, sw4400 said:

Nova will most likely have to call for a flatbed to haul the defective unit back to Plattsburgh

 As has been frequently pointed out, if it needs service, either the Prevost truck seen by Garmon is at South Shops, or it goes to a local service center.

In short you have engaged in product defamation, because the only fair inference that can be drawn from what you just typed was that a CTA inspector released it in Plattsburgh and let some unsuspecting driver drive an unsafe vehicle 900 miles on the tollway system.

BTW, there were advertisements on baseball that your favorite fictional character will be at the Allstate Arena on Sept. 24. I don't know what he would say about you, other than have Shane give you a good beatdown.

[BusHunter]

54 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The license plate is an Illinois license plate, affixed by CTA. It would have a transporter tag issued by NYS while in transit.

Nobody is going to mess up a paint job over that.

 As has been frequently pointed out, if it needs service, either the Prevost truck seen by Garmon is at South Shops, or it goes to a local service center.

In short you have engaged in product defamation, because the only fair inference that can be drawn from what you just typed was that a CTA inspector released it in Plattsburgh and let some unsuspecting driver drive an unsafe vehicle 900 miles on the tollway system.

BTW, there were advertisements on baseball that your favorite fictional character will be at the Allstate Arena on Sept. 24. I don't know what he would say about you, other than have Shane give you a good beatdown.

Once it's here it's not going to plattsburg unless it is really screwed up like frame damage or something major. It will always most likely go to a service dealer locally. I'm sure they can match the paint. The only buses I ever heard that went back to the factory was #9822 or #9800, but they had a major problem and the company needed to rectify it before it cost them the contract.

These boo boo's are all on the inspectors.

[sw4400]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

The license plate is an Illinois license plate, affixed by CTA. It would have a transporter tag issued by NYS while in transit.

Nobody is going to mess up a paint job over that.

 As has been frequently pointed out, if it needs service, either the Prevost truck seen by Garmon is at South Shops, or it goes to a local service center.

In short you have engaged in product defamation, because the only fair inference that can be drawn from what you just typed was that a CTA inspector released it in Plattsburgh and let some unsuspecting driver drive an unsafe vehicle 900 miles on the tollway system.

BTW, there were advertisements on baseball that your favorite fictional character will be at the Allstate Arena on Sept. 24. I don't know what he would say about you, other than have Shane give you a good beatdown.

I beg to differ..... the bus is driven from Plattsburgh to CTA SS, but it still has to be accepted in order to be put into service, correct? There could always be a reason why CTA declines the bus. Do you remember what happened with #8194 with less than 900 miles on the odometer? A inspector in Plattsburgh let that one go, and CTA & Prevost personnel in Chicago green-lighted it for service. Not even a week later, it had an engine fire which has pulled it from service until it is repaired(I would presume it'll be repaired or a new #8194 will eventually be made and shipped, depending on what Nova and CTA agree on with that). So an unsafe vehicle was delivered...... am I saying Nova is making defective buses? No(you mentioned that... I didn't), but errors happen in production.... that's why they are inspected in Plattsburgh and in Chicago.... two locations Busjack, not just one.

BTW, it's illegal to drive with a license plate upside down..... but it seems like the new arrivals come in purposely with the decals on the left side for a reason. I believe that the CTA has to still accept or decline the bus at SS. If accepted, the bus decal is moved to the right and it proceeds with prep for service and assignment. If not, it's moved off to the side and returned to Nova/Prevost personnel for repairs at SS, or a local facility.

[jajuan]

27 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

I beg to differ..... the bus is driven from Plattsburgh to CTA SS, but it still has to be accepted in order to be put into service, correct? There could always be a reason why CTA declines the bus. Do you remember what happened with #8194 with less than 900 miles on the odometer? A inspector in Plattsburgh let that one go, and CTA & Prevost personnel in Chicago green-lighted it for service. Not even a week later, it had an engine fire which has pulled it from service until it is repaired(I would presume it'll be repaired or a new #8194 will eventually be made and shipped, depending on what Nova and CTA agree on with that). So an unsafe vehicle was delivered...... am I saying Nova is making defective buses? No, but errors happen in production.... that's why they are inspected in Plattsburgh and in Chicago.... two locations Busjack, not just one.

BTW, it's illegal to have a license plate upside down..... but it seems like the new arrivals come in purposely with the decals on the left side for a reason. I believe that the CTA has to still accept or decline the bus at SS. If accepted, the bus decal is moved to the right and it proceeds with prep for service and assignment. If not, it's moved off to the side and returned to Nova/Prevost personnel for repairs at SS, or a local facility.

You missed the point. The buses go through two levels of inspection. The first one deems it driveworthy, meaning if it fails that first one it never leaves the plant in the first place. At least it shouldn't. You implied maybe there's a defect that might be of a level to get returned to Plattsburg, meaning you implied the Plattsburg and CTA inspector didn't do their jobs and let a bus on the road with a dangerous defect and put that delivering driver in potentially lethal danger. That's still product defamation in that case, and you committed again by doubling down on the original flawed point. 

[sw4400]

4 minutes ago, jajuan said:

You missed the point. The buses go through two levels of inspection. The first one deems it driveworthy, meaning if it fails that first one it never leaves the plant in the first place. At least it shouldn't. You implied maybe there's a defect that might be of a level to get returned to Plattsburg, meaning you implied the Plattsburg inspector didn't do his job and let a bus on the road with a dangerous defect and put that delivering driver in potentially lethal danger. That's still product defamation in that case, and you committed again by doubling down on the original flawed point. 

Ok, fine..... but what about #8194? Did someone miss the mark on that bus? Odometer a little over 900 miles, only one week of service before the engine fire ended it's service life until repairs are done.... that was mostly miles from Plattsburgh to Chicago.

[BusHunter]

Well here's my shots of the day

First of all I goofed and took this Nova shot thinking it was #8209, oops!! But since it came out I'll post it

Then yes I did take a shot of #8209, which finally escaped the 3rd yard

 

Then I have shots of #8237 and #8234

[jajuan]

7 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

Ok, fine..... but what about #8194? Did someone miss the mark on that bus? Odometer a little over 900 miles, only one week of service before the engine fire ended it's service life until repairs are done.... that was mostly miles from Plattsburgh to Chicago.

Which if I recall was from a wire short that wasn't necessarily easily detectable at the time as it wasn't tripping off any sensor that said performance was being affected. Do you really want to keep down this road of further product defamation offenses and seeing potential NABIs that are not there? Also a fleet number out of place on ONE buses (not the several that you said) means nothing more than the decal is out of place. There are a few NF 1000s that have had a number decal missing or the side decal placed just forward of the rear wheel well instead of just to the rear of the wheel well as is usually the case. Does that mean there were mechanical faults that New Flyer didn't catch 7 to 10 years ago rather than just simple cosmetic faults with those buses?

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, sw4400 said:

but it seems like the new arrivals come in purposely with the decals on the left side for a reason

Garmon has only recorded one incident. You won't go to 77th, so how do you know?

I go back to when you wouldn't believe that 7504 was in the delivery lot at 77th and Perry with 7711. You dismissed it because I didn't have a picture. Yet you are engaged in this fantasy.

 

7 hours ago, sw4400 said:

but what about #8194

You don't know either. Why don't you get a visitor's pass?

To summarize, yes they are inspected when they are released from the plant and they are inspected before they are conditionally accepted F.O.B  at 7801 S. Vincennes Ave., but that's the extent of public knowledge.

[andrethebusman]

10 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Once it's here it's not going to plattsburg unless it is really screwed up like frame damage or something major. It will always most likely go to a service dealer locally. I'm sure they can match the paint. The only buses I ever heard that went back to the factory was #9822 or #9800, but they had a major problem and the company needed to rectify it before it cost them the contract.

These boo boo's are all on the inspectors.

9800 was the original pilot bus. The 9800 that actually ran in service was a replacement and was physically like a 9900 with black handholds on the seats instead of stainless steel. 9822 was here and saw service, but was returned to Flyer so Flyer could take it apart to determine what was causing body to crack by the back door. It was replaced by an all-new 9822 that was substantially different, including having a larger destination sign opening. Both of these (along with 1613, which did come here and was driven around Chicago for at least several weeks with all sorts of strain gauges attached and no lettering) were eventually sold to Brandon Transit in Manitoba and ran for some years in that town as #36-38.

[BusHunter]

42 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

9800 was the original pilot bus. The 9800 that actually ran in service was a replacement and was physically like a 9900 with black handholds on the seats instead of stainless steel. 9822 was here and saw service, but was returned to Flyer so Flyer could take it apart to determine what was causing body to crack by the back door. It was replaced by an all-new 9822 that was substantially different, including having a larger destination sign opening. Both of these (along with 1613, which did come here and was driven around Chicago for at least several weeks with all sorts of strain gauges attached and no lettering) were eventually sold to Brandon Transit in Manitoba and ran for some years in that town as #36-38.

I had to refresh my memory on this by reading some of what I wrote long ago

https://chitransit.org/topic/953-history-of-flyer-buses-9800s-1600s/?do=findComment&comment=9401

I don't know exactly the time frame of the cracks appearing or the timeframe of the delivery but I did start seeing the North avenue #9800's start appearing in the late summer or early fall. It sounds like the cracks were known of shortly after delivery but the replacement fishbowls that Flyer sent to the CTA as short term loans were in 1987. But in the link I state a replacement date for #9822 as 1986. So indeed they were delivered. One could argue that #1614 was rejected, but why would they go through testing it here, that almost seems like an acceptance. Seems the initial blame might have been Chicago streets causing this.

This gets back to a question Busjack would pose, like why would they still receive buses they knew had cracks. Sounds to me that it may not be so easy to send back rejections, you almost need some kind of document of the court to say they are indeed defective, because a company is not willingly going to take a loss as this will hurt their bottom line. So they were stuck for 3 years with buses that should have been returned or repaired.

I remember #9890 having the black grab handles too and I know that was a characteristic of the #9900's/#1600's. i never could figure out why that was.

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

This gets back to a question Busjack would pose, like why would they still receive buses they knew had cracks.

That's more an issue that quality control was not in the 1980s as it is now. The Toronto sites also indicated that their Flyers fell apart, mainly because their carbon steel tube frames rusted.

I don't believe that the business of a TA having inspectors in the plant arose until the tail end of the NABI contract. The CTA inspectors found the 2 problems with Bombardier, and CTA solicited for inspectors for the 7000s before it announced an award on them. Similarly, NICTD had inspectors at Nippon Sharyo even though they were presumably getting the same cars as Metra.

[Chicago Transit Fan]

Tooken in Hammond, Indiana 

[Busjack]

4 hours ago, Chicago Transit Fan said:

Tooken in Hammond, Indiana 

And, unless assigned to nonexistent Hammond Transit, it is still being delivered, but has the rear fleet number on the right side. That blows someone's theory.

Anywhere particular in Hammond (such as 141st and Calumet)? Looks like it.

[BusHunter]

I wish I could have saw that license plate. That looks interesting. I thought #8242 was already here though. I wonder if this could be a service run but I don't know if they can use the temp plates once in chicago.

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I wish I could have saw that license plate. That looks interesting.

My guess is that it is some sort of hanging temporary tag, but the picture is not big enough for me to confirm that. Zooming in Windows Picture Viewer doesn't help.

As far as temp plates, once title passes at 7801 S, Vincennes, they would have to get a certificate of title and put on Illinois plates.

[BusHunter]

4 minutes ago, Busjack said:

My guess is that it is some sort of hanging temporary tag, but the picture is not big enough for me to confirm that. Zooming in Windows Picture Viewer doesn't help.

As far as temp plates, once title passes at 7801 S, Vincennes, they would have to register the bus's title and put on Illinois plates.

Only Garmon can tell us what he saw at SS. This is the holiday weekend though, it sounds like it's getting delivered kind of late if so. I wonder if the drivers get holiday pay? Do they consider the return trip as part of the on the job time. That might be one reason why they delivered so early to make sure all drivers were back by the holiday.

[BusHunter]

Here's a shot of #8235