Pace Electric Buses

[Busjack]

Anyone who likes divining tea leaves might look at the recent Planning and Infrastructure Subcommittee meeting video. There's finally some mention of the Wheeling Garage, including how Des Plaines is beyond capacity, but other than mentioning that "our CNG bus supplier is out of business" (like we didn't know), and maybe "fuel cell technology may advance to the point we can use it at S and NW" not much was said about moving forward.

On North Division, they said that the buses on order have somrthing like 760 kw of battery capacity, which should be enough to cover all blocks with only garage charging.

[Busjack]

FWIW, video of 20700 from Moraine VC to 95-Red Line. A;so @maths22's Run History indicates that the bus has been moved to a 1:00 pm to 4:30 trip.

[MetroShadow]

On 3/26/2024 at 10:45 AM, Busjack said:

Update on this. Pace Release on whole program, including "$826,779 for an electric coach bus for I-55 service between Plainfield and Chicago." So it looks like Pace is getting an MCI D45 CRT Charge. I'll take betting odds on whether it is an LE.

I'll take that, and wager it won't be an LE. 

(The LE diesels here in the Bay, AC Transit, work well, but an adjustment curve with the students at Berkeley. They would almost prefer the Gillig LF Suburbans)

[strictures]

7 hours ago, MetroShadow said:

I'll take that, and wager it won't be an LE. 

(The LE diesels here in the Bay, AC Transit, work well, but an adjustment curve with the students at Berkeley. They would almost prefer the Gillig LF Suburbans)

Are you saying the idiot students at Berkeley decide what kind of buses to buy, or does the transit agency do that?  Exactly what kind of "adjustment curve' would the students have?  All they have to do is get on the bus & sit down.  It's the drivers & mechanics that might see actual changes!

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, strictures said:

Are you saying the idiot students at Berkeley decide what kind of buses to buy, or does the transit agency do that?  Exactly what kind of "adjustment curve' would the students have?  All they have to do is get on the bus & sit down.  It's the drivers & mechanics that might see actual changes!

I believe that the students pay for the services through the fees they pay to the university .  I don't know how much they pay and to what extent they have influence on rge kind of equipment ran on the service.   They might have influence on the contractor  provided that federal funds aren't used to pay the contractors.  On college towns, usually the university. ( by extension the students) determine the level of service for the entire town unless the town has its own service or contracts with the university. 

So if Contractor A has New Flyer buses and Contractor B has Gillig budrs  usually the lowest bidder wins.  But if Contractor A has the contract, but it's up for renewal,  and Contractor B once had the contract but the students preferred the Gillig buses, it's not out of the question that the university could opt for Contractor B provided that the students were willing to pay more in student fees if necessary. 

 

[Busjack]

26 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I believe that the students pay for the services through the fees they pay to the university . 

I don't think that has anything to do with @MetroShadow's point. The only issues I see with an LE is teaching the operator to use the back door for disabled passengers. Since it is going to be a 45 CHARGE in any event, whatever training will have to involve driving and loading a 45 foot bus and dealing with a plug-in charger.

[artthouwill]

31 minutes ago, Busjack said:

I don't think that has anything to do with @MetroShadow's point. The only issues I see with an LE is teaching the operator to use the back door for disabled passengers. Since it is going to be a 45 CHARGE in any event, whatever training will have to involve driving and loading a 45 foot bus and dealing with a plug-in charger.

I wasn't rebutting @MetroShadow or your points about electric buses at all.  I was pointing out to @strictures how  students can possibly affect or influence some decisions.  That's not to say students at Berkeley did or didn't.   But they could certainly say they prefer Suburbans over CRT buses.

[MetroShadow]

17 hours ago, strictures said:

Are you saying the idiot students at Berkeley decide what kind of buses to buy, or does the transit agency do that?  Exactly what kind of "adjustment curve' would the students have?  All they have to do is get on the bus & sit down.  It's the drivers & mechanics that might see actual changes!

In fairness to them, I'd refrain from calling them idiots. Yes, they lack situational awareness to the degree that they walk into parked buses, but many routes (about 2/3 of the 13 that serve the campus) have crush loads and often complain. Enviable, but a chunk of the routes operate with ~20 minute frequencies...or worse

15 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I believe that the students pay for the services through the fees they pay to the university .  I don't know how much they pay and to what extent they have influence on rge kind of equipment ran on the service.   They might have influence on the contractor  provided that federal funds aren't used to pay the contractors.  On college towns, usually the university. ( by extension the students) determine the level of service for the entire town unless the town has its own service or contracts with the university. 

So if Contractor A has New Flyer buses and Contractor B has Gillig budrs  usually the lowest bidder wins.  But if Contractor A has the contract, but it's up for renewal,  and Contractor B once had the contract but the students preferred the Gillig buses, it's not out of the question that the university could opt for Contractor B provided that the students were willing to pay more in student fees if necessary. 

 

As their former administrator, $4 Million/year for the annual bus pass. However, they don't have a say *really* on the procurement process. Their GM Accessibility Committee, OTOH, does.

14 hours ago, Busjack said:

I don't think that has anything to do with @MetroShadow's point. The only issues I see with an LE is teaching the operator to use the back door for disabled passengers. Since it is going to be a 45 CHARGE in any event, whatever training will have to involve driving and loading a 45 foot bus and dealing with a plug-in charger.

AC Transit is also moving towards (when? who knows) all-door boarding with multiple Clipper readers. However, in the last year, I've seen the loading process be awkward on BOTH levels. And Jack is right - throw in the chargers, it's different.

14 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I wasn't rebutting @MetroShadow or your points about electric buses at all.  I was pointing out to @strictures how  students can possibly affect or influence some decisions.  That's not to say students at Berkeley did or didn't.   But they could certainly say they prefer Suburbans over CRT buses.

You both have valid points and if it weren't for the committee that I chaired, very few would have to hold the transit board accountable (unlike any of the Chicago Transit boards, these folks are elected). 

[strictures]

8 hours ago, MetroShadow said:

In fairness to them, I'd refrain from calling them idiots. Yes, they lack situational awareness to the degree that they walk into parked buses, but many routes (about 2/3 of the 13 that serve the campus) have crush loads and often complain. Enviable, but a chunk of the routes operate with ~20 minute frequencies...or worse

It's Berserkely, so calling them idiots is correct!

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, MetroShadow said:

AC Transit is also moving towards (when? who knows) all-door boarding with multiple Clipper readers.

I wasn't referring to fare collection,* but that the D45 CRT LE is distinguished from the D45 CRT in that it has the low-floor center compartment with a ramp, while other motor coaches have a lift  (brochure).

---------------

*I remember when CTA had someone at major transfer points, such as Loyola, punching transfers at the rear door of the buses, but that's not what I was contemplating.

[Busjack]

Appears Pace is backtracking on "no more diesel buses." Although the headline is New $30.9 million Federal Transit Administration grant helps Pace advance zero-emissions goals, the story says "The grant funding will go toward the purchase of new hybrid buses..." [emphasis added]   I guess it came down to that to take care of needs for Pulse, originally supposed to get ENC CNGs, but that's not gonna happen.

The release also says "Pace is also expecting to receive 22 battery-electric buses by the end of the year." Last time Metzger said by July, 2024. but obviously that's not gonna happen, either. PhoenixEV must be behind schedule

[Busjack]

Agenda for Aug. board meeting has "Ordinance authorizing the award of a sole source contract to Gillig LLC for the purchase of one 40-foot battery electric bus (BEB) in an amount not to exceed $924,538.00." I guess Pace hasn't paid for it yet.

[Busjack]

On 8/17/2024 at 4:35 PM, Busjack said:

Agenda for Aug. board meeting has "Ordinance authorizing the award of a sole source contract to Gillig LLC for the purchase of one 40-foot battery electric bus (BEB) in an amount not to exceed $924,538.00." I guess Pace hasn't paid for it yet.

Correction: This is a second Gillig bus. Metzger said Gillig made another demonsrator available, and the charger at SW can handle 2 buses. Board meeting video starting here. Also Metzger said Pace doesn't see delivery of the PhoenixEV buses until 2025.

[The Bus Doctor]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

Correction: This is a second Gillig bus. Metzger said Gillig made another demonsrator available, and the charger at SW can handle 2 buses. Board meeting video starting here. Also Metzger said Pace doesn't see delivery of the PhoenixEV buses until 2025.

It's scary how much the Phoenix buses look like Proterras. It is most likely a safe bet, they are using the same parts and chassis. I had a face palm just looking at that site. What was the Phoenix design before? 20 years in the business has to produce something. If I may be so bold the site looks like a front for Proterra. Please use caution Pace. Maybe give Gillig a shot. Sounds like they have a contractional obligation. At least the I55 electric tour bus that is on order should be a success. 

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, The Bus Doctor said:

It's scary how much the Phoenix buses look like Proterras. It is most likely a safe bet, they are using the same parts and chassis. I had a face palm just looking at that site. What was the Phoenix design before? 20 years in the business has to produce something. If I may be so bold the site looks like a front for Proterra. Please use caution Pace. Maybe give Gillig a shot. Sounds like they have a contractional obligation. At least the I55 electric tour bus that is on order should be a success. 

PhoenixEV is just a rebranding of the bankrupt remains of Proterra Transit sold to Phoenix Motorcars. It was apparently necessary because Volvo, when it bought the battery business, apparently got the rights to that brand name. What's pictured are Proterra Transit bus bodies. Phoenix Motorcars did not make heavy duty buses before this; it only electrified Ford chassis to make trucks, including paratransits.

[Busjack]

A point related to the above one, and (subsequently in the video) made by Chairman Kwasneski, was that Gov. Pritzker asked if Pace could use Illinois manufacturers, such as Rivian and Lion, but they don't make heavy buses, but maybe for paratransits.

[Busjack]

On 7/27/2024 at 1:54 PM, Busjack said:

Appears Pace is backtracking on "no more diesel buses." Although the headline is New $30.9 million Federal Transit Administrration grant helps Pace advance zero-emissions goals, the story says "The grant funding will go toward the purchase of new hybrid buses..." [emphasis added]

Discussed at the Sept. board meeting starting here. For 33 buses, with Pace kicking in $5 million for a total of $36 million, with plans to piggyback off some other contract.

[artthouwill]

Based on the Pace Citizens Advisory Board Meeting, and not suppositions,  Pace is expecting 22 electric buses from Phoenix (Proterra) in 2025 of which 10 to 12 will go to Waukegan.   The remainder is to be " spread out" among the other garages to test and learn about the electric buses.  The second Gillig is slated in arrive at the Southwest garage in 2025.

 

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

and not suppositions

Actually, from the video, the presenter said she was from the operating budget side, not capital, and said "I believe" several times. While probably correct, it isn't gospel.