6000-series Flxible - Retirements

[sw4400]

So, the bidder buys the bus just to have it towed to a Junkyard? That's a gold mine!!! I should buy a bunch of junked cars and sell them just to have someone else haul them off to Junkyards.

I wouldn't buy a bus just so the CTA can say "Now you must take it to this Junkyard for scrapping. Oh, by the way, we want our tires and rims back." Screw that!!! If anything, I'll keep the damn rims at least, especially if I'm paying hundreds of dollars for what I thought would be a bus you can register and do what you want with(so long as you don't start a run on Irving Park and pick up passengers... )

[Busjack]

... especially if I'm paying hundreds of dollars for what I thought would be a bus you can register and do what you want with...

Apparently you assume that the bidder can't read. Go back and reread my last post.*

Also, the bid documents say that if CTA wants the rims and tires back, and the successful bidder wants to keep them, they are $200 each.

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*As the Pace bid results indicate, only junk yards want to buy this junk, anyway.

[sw4400]

The bidder has to tow them as directed by the CTA storeroom at 7801 S. Vincennes, but may only scrap them. Also, CTA can ask that the wheels and tires be returned.

This was from your post. The bidder(e.g myself) has to tow them as directed, but may only scrap them. Also, CTA can ask that the wheels and tires be returned to them. Nothing about $200/rim. And I'm not going to register my info to download the PDF. info. If you did, post it so we can see where it talks about costs to keep the rim, and instructions that you have to take the bus you just spent money buying right immediately to a scrapyard, rather than putting money into it to maybe give it a little more useful life. It's only a 16-yr. old body. Detroit Series-50 Engines can probably be restored still. ZF Transmissions can be restored as well. Before you give me the huge amount of money to do this speech, I know the costs are expensive! I see a retired MCI Motorcoach parked on Lincoln occasionally with a U-Haul attached to it(very good shape, BTW. Probably a 1990's model perhaps). Some people might know people who can help with rehabbing/restoring a bus like this(look at GM New Look #374 for example, which a private party in California has restored, not to mention #9799, which is now owned by T8H5307A.)

[Busjack]

...And I'm not going to register my info to download the PDF. info....

And I'm not going to do your work for you. Rest assured that I filled in the blanks, but did not give CTA any identifying information. You can figure out how to do it, too. Just remember, computers are stupid.

I'm not going any further into this dead-end line of inquiry.

To go back to the point of my original post today: Does anyone know whether there are about 120 buses left, and scrapping them means this is the end?

[Guest]

I went by Kedzie Garage the other day and i saw Flxible #6031 parked inside the barn. It was parked near the front just behind the bus assignment booth, it has the front turn signal covers missing. You can see it passing by on Kedzie ave.

[Wolfman]

...look at GM New Look #374 for example, which a private party in California has restored,

not to mention #9799, which is now owned by T8H5307A....

Um, that bus you mentioned (374) was NEVER a CTA bus.

(Looks damn good though, doesn't it?)

It's owned by Regional Transit Services that is run by Scott Richards. Scott has a number of transit buses that are rented out and sold for movie shoots and such. 374 was originally a Tacoma, Washington bus.

http://sites.google.com/site/rtsregionaltransitservice/our-fleet/transit-buses/374---1974-gmc-t6h4523n

CTA never had 4523s in it's fleet. Besides, it's a 1974 model bus representing one of 1962 vintage.

................................................................................................................................................................

As for 9799, it's not truly restored as much as it is "preserved".

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Not to throw water on anyone's fire, but CTA has had a long history of individuals wishing to purchase retired buses and then realizing that they bit off more than they could chew. I've often thought someone should write a book about the care and feeding of preserved transit buses. Obviously, many many people don't get it. Many people I know that WANT a used bus haven't thought the whole process out. At the very least, there's the issue (the REAL issue) of secure storage for your beast...and then learning how to OPERATE it (it's not the family car. never was. never will be). Many folks see a transit bus and think: "Oh, I'll gut it and make it an RV!" Good luck with that. Most shadetree mechanics don't understand how these buses were built or wired, let alone how to go about rebuilding one.

Take my word; CTA has thought this one out. Many buses slated for scrap have been pillaged and looted for parts, or may suffer defects that will cost way more to repair than the unit is worth.

Besides, CTA disposes of buses by issue of a salvage title.

If you wish to make a salvage bus street-worthy/street legal, you'll have to have it inspected by IDOT. Not fun. In fact, it's a headache.

Let it go.

Transit System (WA)

[pace2322]

Dont forget about Cta 4550 that me and tdh have saved.. I for one have been trying to save a 6000s for a long time now. It takes alot of phone calleds and still no luck. But i am going to keep trying due to i used to drive them all the time out of Chicago.. Also 9799 and 8723 are not own by Chbm anymore. Chbm just owns one bus now, and that is The Njt mc-9.

[Busjack]

Also 9799 and 8723 are not own by Chbm anymore. Chbm just owns one bus now, and that is The Njt mc-9.

Which indicates another problem besides the ones indicated by Wolfman. If the bus museums can't afford to keep their fleets, I don't think some individual can afford to do so, especially after CTA guts the bus.

[pace2322]

Which indicates another problem besides the ones indicated by Wolfman. If the bus museums can't afford to keep their fleets, I don't think some individual can afford to do so, especially after CTA guts the bus.

Well guess what i have 8723 and i keep it up went rent and so on. I just dont drive it because i work most of my time. I go out once a week to play with it.

[Wolfman]

Which indicates another problem besides the ones indicated by Wolfman. If the bus museums can't afford to keep their fleets, I don't think some individual can afford to do so, especially after CTA guts the bus.

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THANK YOU!!

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This is a problem that many collectors and wannabe collectors have with buying up retired equipment. Most of these guys (and I know I'm going to offend someone here, so sorry) Buy them with big dreams, and very little planning. In the past, right here in Chicago, one or two individuals bought buses right and left, and didn't have plans for them. They didn't even know how to drive them, or do basic maintenance. The buses sat, got vandalized and rusted out over the years. Animals ate through the lines and insulation, and the interiors went to shit. The engines of course seized up, and the blocks cracked from the weather and disuse.

The vision is there - these ARE vintage buses that were "saved", but what one fails to take into account is, once they become "yours", they will need immediate care and feeding. Also, that costs money. Lots of money. Then, there's the question of TIME; can you afford a visit once a week? Better yet, did you even THINK that you might need to store your prize bus at a safe place where it wouldn't get tagged or vandalized, or looted, or used as a crack den?

So, lets say you've taken the time to fix your bus up. NOW what are you going to do with it? Can you take it to car shows, and possibly do parades, picnics, and heritage days? Are you a good representative where you can pimp it off, and tell people the significance of your pride and joy?

I think it's sad that many "bus" museums don't make it beyond the "bus club stage".

I'd be interested in hearing YOUR thoughts...

[Guest]

Went by the CFD/City of Chicago Fleet Management Shops at North ave./Throop tonight. Sitting in a yard along with a handful of firetrucks are three all white, Flxible 6000s and the CFD RTS bus. I was able to get a close look of the buses but I didnt get a good look to see what bus numbers they were.

[sw4400]

Wolfman, this is the quote that made me discuss the whole "Used Bus" scenario...

More relevant to this subject is that the CTA Contract Opportunities Page includes an entry for Sale of Scrap Buses.

Cracking this open, it is for approximately 120 6000 series Flxible buses. I don't know if any of you have counts of how many are currently left, but it looks like the beginning of the end, and, probably to CTA Tattler's Kevin's dismay, no chance of restoring service to 2009 levels.

The bidder has to tow them as directed by the CTA storeroom at 7801 S. Vincennes, but may only scrap them. Also, CTA can ask that the wheels and tires be returned.

First off, the CTA has a fleet of wreckers.... take these Flxibles and scrap them yourselves!!! Why should you have private parties buy them just to pay a wrecker to haul your junk off to a scrapyard and if you decide to keep parts for the bus(like the rims), appearantly, in addition to paying "X" amount of Dollars for the retired Flxible you win, you have to pay for the rims

from another of Busjack's posts....

"Also, the bid documents say that if CTA wants the rims and tires back, and the successful bidder wants to keep them, they are $200 each"

If all you can do with the bus you "win" in the auction is just pay for a wrecker to take it to a scrapyard and have it junked without at least being able to take parts off for no charge, not have to pay CTA for parts you want to keep, then what's the point of auctioning these buses? Let me give you an example....

I win a auction for one of the Flxibles for I'll say $500. CTA instructs me to call a Wrecking Company to take my Auction Bus from it's sitting location to the Junkyard they instruct it to go to(it's a bus, so I'm going to guess towing will run me about $400). I've now payed $900 on a CTA Bus that I can't do nothing with but scrap, per CTA's instructions. Now if I want to keep the rims of the Bus I just scrapped as CTA told me to, I have to give the CTA $800 more??? So, I would be giving the CTA ultimately $1,700 for nothing basically.

[BusHunter]

There's other things you can use besides the tires and rims. Anyone scrapping buses is either going to have a small fleet of their own of similar buses there trying to maintain on the cheap, or is in the scrapping business and after the scrap metal. In the first instance they'd most likely have there own wrecker on site to maintain there own fleet. Now I don't like the idea of scrapping a bus under the watchful eye of CTA over my left shoulder. It probably would have been better if CTA took off what it wanted off the buses (like they used too) and sell the buses under a junk/salvage only declaration, unless somehow it's possible to change the title back to a workable state and there still worried over lawsuits of impending litigation should anything happen to a bus in operation. But then I'd question why any organization is allowed access to any former CTA vehicle. Well anyway, I'm thinking about something bigger. Now that they are clearing out Archer, could it be possible they might try to sell the land to a developer, or keep Archer for there own use, like Beverly is today?

[Busjack]

Now that they are clearing out Archer, could it be possible they might try to sell the land to a developer, or keep Archer for there own use, like Beverly is today?

Now you are getting to a good question.

Again, I can only speculate, but given that I was the first one to have predicted this use for Archer, I figure that they have to sell it off. It is a combination of several things:

• The barn has been there for about 104 years, but in a neighborhood that it primarily residential and institutional, and hence probably not suitable for another "industrial use."
• With CTA needing the money, and all the press scrutiny about past land deals (like Limits, or the guy who used Ask Carole to, in effect force CTA to post appraisals of surplus property that it sold to the city for redevelopment, like 69th and Ashland), it probably can't hold onto surplus property of this nature.
• In effect, Krambles said in 1992 that it was due for replacement, but, instead was taken out of service 18 years later.

Someone would have to contradict those factors with some real use, such as the money trucks at Beverly, or that CTA really needs storage space nearer to downtown, but I don't see either.

BTW, I hear that there is will be a lot of vacant Jewel space available not being converted to either Sav-A-Lot or junk bus storage, either.

In any event, I expect this to turn out like Limits, with John Kass writing that someone with 11th, 12th, or 14th Ward connections getting a deal on the land within about two years. After holding onto 52nd and Cottage for way too long before selling it, they'll sell this one.

[sw4400]

Now you are getting to a good question.

Again, I can only speculate, but given that I was the first one to have predicted this use for Archer, I figure that they have to sell it off. It is a combination of several things:

• The barn has been there for about 104 years, but in a neighborhood that it primarily residential and institutional, and hence probably not suitable for another "industrial use."
• With CTA needing the money, and all the press scrutiny about past land deals (like Limits, or the guy who used Ask Carole to, in effect force CTA to post appraisals of surplus property that it sold to the city for redevelopment, like 69th and Ashland), it probably can't hold onto surplus property of this nature.
• In effect, Krambles said in 1992 that it was due for replacement, but, instead was taken out of service 18 years later.

Someone would have to contradict those factors with some real use, such as the money trucks at Beverly, or that CTA really needs storage space nearer to downtown, but I don't see either.

BTW, I hear that there is will be a lot of vacant Jewel space available not being converted to either Sav-A-Lot or junk bus storage, either.

In any event, I expect this to turn out like Limits, with John Kass writing that someone with 11th, 12th, or 14th Ward connections getting a deal on the land within about two years. After holding onto 52nd and Cottage for way too long before selling it, they'll sell this one.

I understand the relevance to this, Busjack, but why have people like you and me buy buses that the CTA only wants immediately scrapped, and if you want any parts(presuming they allow you to take parts of the bus you just bought, BTW), you have to pay for them. Do like you did with the Flyers.... use your wreckers to haul the Flxibles to 7801 S. Vincennes or 95th/Ewing for scrapping yourselves. This economy is hard on us enough without buying junk we aren't allowed to have anything to do with!!!

[Busjack]

I understand the relevance to this, Busjack, but why have people like you and me buy buses that the CTA only wants immediately scrapped, and if you want any parts(presuming they allow you to take parts of the bus you just bought, BTW), you have to pay for them. Do like you did with the Flyers.... use your wreckers to haul the Flxibles to 7801 S. Vincennes or 95th/Ewing for scrapping yourselves. This economy is hard on us enough without buying junk we aren't allowed to have anything to do with!!!

I said that this was a dead end line of inquiry, but since you asked it to me, I will answer.

It is clear from the specification it is not for people who want to buy buses for collections, but for scrap dealers to bid.

Why do you find that hard to comprehend?

All reports have been that except for a few buses that CTA has "donated" to CFD, CTA buses have gone to the scrap yard that scraps them--Sims at 92nd and Ewing. Go back and find CTA5750's picture of an RTS front in a pile of junk.

Also, 77th and Perry is not a scrap yard, just the dead lot. Of course, you won't go down there to see that.

Furthermore, put yourself in the "people like you and me" category, not me. I have no interest in buying a junk bus, especially after CTA, as usual, has defueled it, cut the lines, etc.

If you are really among the "people like me" who want to own a used bus (pace2322 says he has a preserved Pace one), download the specification, read it, and submit a bid. In that case, you should have no objection to giving identifying information, and you can ask the CTA Contract Officer himself.

Otherwise, I don't understand why you are wasting your time along this track. That's why I used other posters' technique of shouting here. Sorry.

[BusHunter]

Busjack, you were asking about the 120 left, if that was all of the #6000's? It would seem that it is. When the 6 buses were activated 7/2/10 they were down from 291 to 203 in storage. With recent reports of #6328 hitting the shredder among others, it appears they've been shredding buses all this time on a slow pace.

[Wolfman]

I'm just guessing here, but it sounds to me like what the REAL deal is - is that CTA wants YOU to pay the cost for THEIR wreckers and utility crews to extricate the buses out of Archer, and to haul them to South Shops (Storeroom 50) for "outprocessing".

There, the bus is weighed after the defuel/purge process.

The bus is then taken to the "dead line". That's where YOU and a certified recovery operation take the bus off the property. Once it's off CTA property, you can take what you like. Legally, it seems CTA wants no part of "part pickers" or individual buyers. It's liability issues. You see how they make it impossible for anyone to (easily) put the retired buses back in service.

BTW, tires and rims are LEASED to CTA. CTA doesn't own the tires.

Even scrap tires have to be accounted for. So yes, they go back.

It's probably not fair, but I've known people who have bought buses in the past and thought it was like buying a used car off the lot. When the buses didn't turn out to be what the buyers hoped for, many were abandoned, and the City of Chicago made CTA reclaim them and pay fines for the abandonments (true story). Also, one or two "buyers" filed lawsuits against the CTA for other problems with the retired buses (like the CTA has the time to teach people how to drive them and/or maintain them), so now, CTA won't sell but for scrap.

It's sad, but CTA is true to it's initials...

Cover Thy Ass

[sw4400]

I'm just guessing here, but it sounds to me like what the REAL deal is - is that CTA wants YOU to pay the cost for THEIR wreckers and utility crews to extricate the buses out of Archer, and to haul them to South Shops (Storeroom 50) for "outprocessing".

There, the bus is weighed after the defuel/purge process.

The bus is then taken to the "dead line". That's where YOU and a certified recovery operation take the bus off the property. Once it's off CTA property, you can take what you like. Legally, it seems CTA wants no part of "part pickers" or individual buyers. It's liability issues. You see how they make it impossible for anyone to (easily) put the retired buses back in service.

BTW, tires and rims are LEASED to CTA. CTA doesn't own the tires.

Even scrap tires have to be accounted for. So yes, they go back.

It's probably not fair, but I've known people who have bought buses in the past and thought it was like buying a used car off the lot. When the buses didn't turn out to be what the buyers hoped for, many were abandoned, and the City of Chicago made CTA reclaim them and pay fines for the abandonments (true story). Also, one or two "buyers" filed lawsuits against the CTA for other problems with the retired buses (like the CTA has the time to teach people how to drive them and/or maintain them), so now, CTA won't sell but for scrap.

It's sad, but CTA is true to it's initials...

Cover Thy Ass

Thanks for clarifying this, Wolfman. Kinda stupid to put these buses up for sale for the general public. BTW, Busjack, I have zero intentions of buying a bus, I was just using the "people like you and me" line to mention how some ordinary person can bid on a bus and win it just to have to scrap it. CTA should just do this themselves. They have wreckers and operators who could haul these buses down to the scrapyard themselves(I see these wreckers towing disabled buses occasionally).

Sounds like the CTA is trying to make money off of selling these Flxibles to people just so they pay for scrapping.

[Busjack]

BTW, Busjack, I have zero intentions of buying a bus, I was just using the "people like you and me" line to mention how some ordinary person can bid on a bus and win it just to have to scrap it. CTA should just do this themselves. They have wreckers and operators who could haul these buses down to the scrapyard themselves(I see these wreckers towing disabled buses occasionally).

Probably so, but I went off on that tangent because you seemed to be singlemindedly championing a hopeless cause (sort of like the St.Jude advertisements on buses that went near 93rd). If you had any personal interest in this, I pointed out ways of dealing with it.

As I said before, Pace deals with this slightly differently by advertising buses by each vehicle number, and pace2322 apparently picked up one that was being saved at South Holland, but, as the last two "Awarded Bids" postings from Pace indicate, those were sold to the wrecker or a parts salvage business, and, again, the purchaser had to tow them away and show proof of salvage title.

Now, if you wanted to start a general policy debate about whether CTA could realize more money by doing it the Pace way than as it did by advertising them as scrap, that would be different, but I think Wolfman pretty well took care of that.

As far as CTA having tow trucks, "The Breakdown Thread" indicates that they may be otherwise occupied.

[Wolfman]

As far as CTA having tow trucks, "The Breakdown Thread" indicates that they may be otherwise occupied.

Yes, the CTA has wreckers. I'm not sure of the number at the present, but there used to be five. Three were in service at any given time, and two are on standby. The Utility Section operates these wreckers. One works "north", one works "south", and one works "central".

These are considered "emergency vehicles", and have lights and sirens, and in a bonifide emergency, may run code like a fire truck.

When the recovery crews are called out, they have priorities. The relocation of retired equipment is a very low priority. This is usually done late at night on first shift (graveyard). This is also when "shop jobs" (buses that have major collision damage to go to South Shops for repair/rebuild) are relocated. Company policy has always been to minimize the public seeing damaged buses being towed...

Back to retired buses - CTA would NEVER allow an outside towing firm to come onto the property (Archer) and move a bus from place to place (Storeroom 50). Again, liability. CTA will do this. BUT, I guess they figure the median market rate for relocation, and YOU pay for that.

The whole object behind the operation is, CTA has set a price they want per pound for scrap. Scrap dealers bid, and the winning bidder deals with CTA for the retired buses. Actually, the scrap bidders are familiar with CTA's disposal requirements which limits the number of "qualified bidders". I think part of the clause is a "no resale" clause which prohibits a contract dealer from selling a unit as whole. The old rules used to be that the units (buses) MUST be shredded, or broken in half. In other words, the bus must be physically unusable so the CTA is held harmless after they've let it go.

Does the CTA make money on scrap buses (and railcars)? The short answer, no. By law, CTA cannot make a profit from any of it's cast-offs. They barely break even on scrap sales (thinking SCRAP here, not the value of a "bus"). Much of the rolling stock is bought and paid for by FTA and state funds.

[Wolfman]

For you Flxible fans...

I thought you'd like this.

Yes, the Instructor in 6185 looks familiar, doesn't he?

And, yes, it's kind of a long ways from Belmont/Cumberland.

[Busjack]

I think part of the clause is a "no resale" clause which prohibits a contract dealer from selling a unit as whole. The old rules used to be that the units (buses) MUST be shredded, or broken in half. In other words, the bus must be physically unusable so the CTA is held harmless after they've let it go.

Technically speaking, the clause is "In the event the Purchaser agrees to sell the Scrap Used Buses to a third party, a provision [that the purchaser will not use the buses for transportation and no part will be used except for scrap metal (in the first two paragraphs of that section)] shall be incorporated in the ... contract with such third party."

Also, the purchaser must indemnify the CTA for any claim arising out of the sale, and if the bus is resold, the subpurchaser must indemnify the original purchaser.

Does the CTA make money on scrap buses (and railcars)? The short answer, no. By law, CTA cannot make a profit from any of it's cast-offs. They barely break even on scrap sales (thinking SCRAP here, not the value of a "bus"). Much of the rolling stock is bought and paid for by FTA and state funds.

Technically, the CTA does not make money, in the sense of profit, on anything. Also, since the buses are beyond their FTA life, there isn't a reimbursement requirement (compare to the about $51 million federal interest in the NABIs). However, the proceeds from this would pay for some other capital expense, such as maybe a few railroad spikes.

...

And, yes, it's kind of a long ways from Belmont/Cumberland.

Apparently IRM. (I was thinking that trolley buses and 6000s didn't coexist on the street.) However, how does an instructor get permission to take an in service vehicle to IRM?

[Guest]

For you Flxible fans...

I thought you'd like this.

Yes, the Instructor in 6185 looks familiar, doesn't he?

And, yes, it's kind of a long ways from Belmont/Cumberland.

Awesome pic!

[Guest]

If any one recalls about my post two weeks ago about the Flxible #6000 CTA donated to the Food Action Network/Fresh Moves. I recieved an email this morning from the project director that I was hired as one of their drivers, so Im happy about that! But what I really wanted to share with everyone is that I have the schedule of where the bus will be. If anyone wants to go see it, I have dates and times where the bus will be on the west side starting May 25/26th. I will be there on Wednesday. The bus will be at the following locations...

Wed. May 25th

Lawndale Christian Academy 3860 W. Ogden ave. 9am-11am

Sankosa Safe Child Initiative 4041 W Roosevelt Rd. 12-2pm

Green Youth Farm 3555 W Ogden Ave. 3-5pm

Thur. May 26th

Herbert Spencer Tech Academy 214 W. Lavergne. 9:30-12pm

*Phalanx Family Services 4628 w. Washington Blvd. 12:30pm 2:30pm

Bethel New Life Division/Lavergne 3-5pm

*Starting June 2nd