#4000 Arrives

[trainman8119]

I was able to ride my first New Flyer Hybrid Artic today, 4002, on the 156. My initial plan was to go north through the park, but the first bus I saw go by was a NABI, and with all the talk about how these buses were being babied and working only rush hours, when I saw 4002 headed southbound at Wacker and La Salle, I charged to the bus stop for a ride to Union Station. Of course, after I got on, 4008 passed by going north. But, heck, it was a ride anyway.

The new car (er bus) smell hits you before the doors open. The bus had a very wide open feel while walking down the aisle. Of course that could be that there weren't many people on the bus, but the aisles did feel a little bit wider than the NABI's (even though we know they are not)...could be the lighting, I don't know. I made my way back to the trailer part, on the high floor part...where I go for any bus ride I am on. First impression....Q-U-I-E-T. Very quiet....it reminded me of riding the old Marmon trolleys...same kind of transmission hum you would hear...no motor, just the whine of the transmission. After a short time (maybe 20 seconds) you would hear a very soft purring of the engine itself. I thought the ride was very smooth. There was not much bounce in the articulation. But again one has to take into account the newness and the fact that I was on La Salle and Adams streets...not too many craters on those streets in the area I rode. I noticed that you could not hear any stop indicator (either chime or buzzer) when the rip cord was pulled, although the LED readout displayed "Stop Requested".

Finally, I paid a lot of attention to the rear doors. It seems that the problem is that the sensor on the door is located over the small area that display the hands on the sticker instructing one to touch. On the 40 foot New Flyers, you can pretty much hit any part of that yellow strip with a soft push and the door will open. However, on this bus, I watched a number of people trying to get these doors to open, and the doors would not open unless someone hit the small hand part of that strip. If you didn't catch it, the doors stayed closed. So, needless to say, when I got off, I hit the hands and was on my merry way. I wanted to get a pic of my first New Flyer Artic, but some knucklehead walked in front of me when the bus pulled away and I lost my chance to get it. 4002 (2008) will no be one of those numbers that will probably be ingrained in my memory, just like fishbowl 1232 was the first of that series for me to ride.

Just kind of a fun day.

[Busjack]

Not entirely possible, Busjack(Although I'll go with you about Archer until BRT Service begins). Remember that the CTA wants to ... start the overdue work on the NABI 60-LFW issues. ... While small groups of NABI's are circulated out of service for repairs, some of the incoming DE60LF's from New Flyer will be required to keep enough "Accordian Style" Buses on the routes that need/require them.

Based on the whiteboard report, you caught me. However, that would seem to be the only justification for sending them there, and CTA would be going back to not making sense if those were their permanent assignments. Those aren't the best places to maximize regenerative braking (local routes are) and if the NABIs were permanently displaced, they would have to be put on the 3 for 4 duty.

But we'll have to wait and see.

[Busjack]

The bus had a very wide open feel while walking down the aisle. Of course that could be that there weren't many people on the bus, but the aisles did feel a little bit wider than the NABI's (even though we know they are not)...could be the lighting, I don't know.

The longitudinal seating in the front would result in a wider aisle there.

[Anonymous Guy]

Seattle KCMetro rider here. I wonder why they decided to go with the older-style single Hybrid pod pack design with CTA's current order. When Seattle received its 2008 DE60LFs, they had been slightly redesigned with a double-pod design, which makes the bus look a little top heavy.

example of Seattle's 2008 DE60LFs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/viriyincy/257...l-24914061@N00/

Also, were these buses given the CAT C9 engines of Seattle's 2004 spec, or were they given the Cummins ISLs of 2008?

Just a side comment, from the interior shots shown in a flickr user gallery, the CTA DE60LFs seem to have a lot of sideway seating. I personally prefer buses to have as much front-facing seats as possible, although sideways seats do provide more aisle room.

[jajuan]

4001 was in service today (11/14/08) on the 52 at least as early as the PM rush through the rest of the evening. This was an actual physical sighting and not a Bustracker one. When I first saw it SB, I was too far away to get a clear view of the vehicle number. While I was doing laundry, I spotted again as it was heading back NB and saw that it was 4001. Looks like Kedzie is taking the kid gloves off and starting to use them a bit more on other routes besides the 156.

[sw4400]

Also, were these buses given the CAT C9 engines of Seattle's 2004 spec, or were they given the Cummins ISLs of 2008?

These buses have a GM/Allison Engine pack. If there is some sort of diesel engine in there as well(I have yet to ride any DELF of any New Flyer delivery(800,900,or 4000-Series), then I'm going to guess the Cummins ISM(as this is what powers our D40LF's(1000-Series).

[MVTArider]

While out and about today we stopped by the Detroit Diesel lot by MOA, this time I brought my camera

[MT0851]

These buses have a GM/Allison Engine pack. If there is some sort of diesel engine in there as well(I have yet to ride any DELF of any New Flyer delivery(800,900,or 4000-Series), then I'm going to guess the Cummins ISM(as this is what powers our D40LF's(1000-Series).

They have the GM/Allison Ep50 parallel hybrid drive and Cummins ISL engine, which produces electricity for the electric transmission and all the electrical components of the bus and also propels the bus at higher speeds.

More information about how it works can be found here, http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet...et=SA3592EN.pdf

Also only 1000-1629 have the ISM, 1630-2029 have the ISL.

Seattle KCMetro rider here. I wonder why they decided to go with the older-style single Hybrid pod pack design with CTA's current order. When Seattle received its 2008 DE60LFs, they had been slightly redesigned with a double-pod design, which makes the bus look a little top heavy.

example of Seattle's 2008 DE60LFs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/viriyincy/257...l-24914061@N00/

Also, were these buses given the CAT C9 engines of Seattle's 2004 spec, or were they given the Cummins ISLs of 2008?

Unlike the older DE60LFs which have the HVAC unit for the trailer in the rear end, KCM's newest DE60LFs have all of the HVAC units on the roof, for both the tractor and trailer section, therefor some of the batteries had to be moved to the tractor section make room for the HVAC blowers for the trailer section and that's why they have roof tanks on both the tractor and trailer section.

The CTA doesn't have that because they got the HVAC blowers for the trailer section in the rear end of the bus, so all of the batteries are on the roof of the trailer section.

They have the Cummins ISL.

[Tcmetro]

Nice pics MVTARider, I will defineatly have to check out Detroit Diesel!!!

[BusExpert32]

Before the speculation gets out of control, Kedzie is only receiving a small number of 4000s (probably 12). There will then be a NP/103 split. As always, this information is subject to change.

Who will get the odds? Who will get the evens? Probably the same as with the 1000s.

Will the 1900s continue to be shipped to North Park/103rd along with the 4000s?

[Busjack]

Nice pics MVTARider, I will defineatly have to check out Detroit Diesel!!!

Also, with the notices taped to the window, apparently they don't come off the assembly line in perfect condition. Sort of strange that NF would send them to a third party to straighten out.

[sw4400]

While out and about today we stopped by the Detroit Diesel lot by MOA, this time I brought my camera

Looking at pic #9(the one mentioning a 'noisy rear axle, etc...'), did the CTA reject #4019(the area where it is typed in about the problems with this bus are under 'Reason For Rejection'). If so, is this bus gone from our order forever, or will it be repaired and put back/introduced into CTA service?

[sw4400]

Also only 1000-1629 have the ISM, 1630-2029 have the ISL.

I'm trying to keep a computer roster of all the current buses and series #'s for each bus(which I thank all of you chicagobus.org members for helping me do so), and I am greatful for this little tidbit on our D40LF's, MT0851. But since we are only in the 1900's now, do you think we'll keep the ISL's through 2029, or do you think they'll revert back to the ISM's or perhaps some other type of diesel engine to finish off the series? This might be a hard question to answer unless you're in the CTA procurement dept. or working/had worked for New Flyer of America. But I'd appreciate it if you are 100% sure that the engines for the remainder of the deliveries will stay as Cummins ISL's.

[cta5658]

Looking at pic #9(the one mentioning a 'noisy rear axle, etc...'), did the CTA reject #4019(the area where it is typed in about the problems with this bus are under 'Reason For Rejection'). If so, is this bus gone from our order forever, or will it be repaired and put back/introduced into CTA service?

i think it will be repaired

[Busjack]

i think it will be repaired

There was a reason it was at Detroit Diesel, which would imply the above. But I suppose that MVTA Rider could confirm why it and he were there.

[Busjack]

I'm trying to keep a computer roster of all the current buses and series #'s for each bus(which I thank all of you chicagobus.org members for helping me do so), and I am greatful for this little tidbit on our D40LF's, MT0851. But since we are only in the 1900's now, do you think we'll keep the ISL's through 2029, or do you think they'll revert back to the ISM's or perhaps some other type of diesel engine to finish off the series?

The issue was that supposedly options 3 and 4 could use a smaller engine because of the lighter frame (which we debated earlier).

Also, there is the issue about what engine is in the hybrids, in that they can be smaller than in a straight diesel (supposedly 5.7 liters compared to 8 in the straight diesel 40 foot bus), but since we are now talking about an articulated, hard to know (also hard to know what the comparative power of the electric motors is).

Not having lifted the engine cover off of any, I can't comment more than that.

[MVTArider]

Nice pics MVTARider, I will defineatly have to check out Detroit Diesel!!!

Thanks, I did not expect to see a CTA bus there, Since we were coming from 28th ave. station we stopped by and there it was

Also, with the notices taped to the window, apparently they don't come off the assembly line in perfect condition. Sort of strange that NF would send them to a third party to straighten out.

Yeah, my only guess is it could be New Flyer finds it better to get repairs done at a repair place instead of taking time from assembling other buses to work out problems that arise. This is the second New Flyer I have seen there now. The first being that SEPTA one.

Looking at pic #9(the one mentioning a 'noisy rear axle, etc...'), did the CTA reject #4019(the area where it is typed in about the problems with this bus are under 'Reason For Rejection'). If so, is this bus gone from our order forever, or will it be repaired and put back/introduced into CTA service?

Looking at it again it also says "reject parts entry" at the top of the form, I suppose that form could also be a shop form instead of a New Flyer one. I wish I could have seen the mileage so we would know if this bus is coming from St. Cloud or if it has already been to Chicago. Shoot, I should've checked if there was a odometer in one of the wheels come to think of it.

There was a reason it was at Detroit Diesel, which would imply the above. But I suppose that MVTA Rider could confirm why it and he were there.

You guys know as much as I do There was no one there from what I could tell so the only info. I have is from the papers in the pics. There were more papers sitting on the front passenger side wheel table but I couldn't make out what they said, they looked like the New Flyer form as well.

I looked up truck repair near MOA and found the website (click on Bloomington, then Bloomington again) for this place, its actually called Interstate from what I can tell, they seem to do repair/service on lots of commercial type vehicles. If I see any more NF's there i'll let you know, I still want a pic of one on 28th next to a Metro Transit or MVTA bus/train though :D

[artthouwill]

Also, with the notices taped to the window, apparently they don't come off the assembly line in perfect condition. Sort of strange that NF would send them to a third party to straighten out.

Perhaps DD does authorized warranty work for New Flyer, or CTA.

[Guest]

While out and about today we stopped by the Detroit Diesel lot by MOA, this time I brought my camera

Good pics MVTA! Its cool to see the buses before theyre delivered. No one made a big stink about you taking pics there. If its close to MOA, where is this shop located? Might have to check it out myself one day.

[Anonymous Guy]

Also, there is the issue about what engine is in the hybrids, in that they can be smaller than in a straight diesel (supposedly 5.7 liters compared to 8 in the straight diesel 40 foot bus), but since we are now talking about an articulated, hard to know (also hard to know what the comparative power of the electric motors is).

IIRC, when Seattle KCM received its D60LFs alongside its initial order of DE60LFs, both were shipped using identical CAT C9 engines. I assume that the Cummins ISLs shipped in the 2008 DE60LFs are of conventional artic spec.

[MT0851]

IIRC, when Seattle KCM received its D60LFs alongside its initial order of DE60LFs, both were shipped using identical CAT C9 engines. I assume that the Cummins ISLs shipped in the 2008 DE60LFs are of conventional artic spec.

That's right because the type of hybrid drive used on NFI artics is Allison parallel hybrid, so basically the electric motor propels the bus at lower speeds (0-45KM/h) and after that the engine powers the bus without any help from the electric motor. So you still need a standard sized engine for the bus.

Unlike a series hybrid where the electric motor powers the bus at all times, so it can use a smaller engine.

However, both types both have their ups and down and if they're used properly they generally get the same ammount of fuel economy.

But yeah, KCM's 2004 DE60LFs and D60LFs both use the 2004EPA Cat 8.8L C9 engine at 330 bhp. The 2008 DE60LFs use the 2007EPA 8.9L ISL engine at 330 bhp, same with the CTA's.

[artthouwill]

Today around 1 p.m., I saw bus 4005 eastbound on 35th turning south on Michigan. The sign had Kedzie Garage on it.

[Anonymous Guy]

That's right because the type of hybrid drive used on NFI artics is Allison parallel hybrid, so basically the electric motor propels the bus at lower speeds (0-45KM/h) and after that the engine powers the bus without any help from the electric motor. So you still need a standard sized engine for the bus.

Unlike a series hybrid where the electric motor powers the bus at all times, so it can use a smaller engine.

However, both types both have their ups and down and if they're used properly they generally get the same ammount of fuel economy.

But yeah, KCM's 2004 DE60LFs and D60LFs both use the 2004EPA Cat 8.8L C9 engine at 330 bhp. The 2008 DE60LFs use the 2007EPA 8.9L ISL engine at 330 bhp, same with the CTA's.

Thanks for the clarification.

The utilization of a parallel hybrid drive in KCM's bus spec makes sense, since the DE60LFs used in the Seattle underground transit tunnel have the Hush Mode function. The Hush Mode feature forces the bus to operate at a top speed of about 15MPH primarily using electric power (with diesel assistance) to reduce emissions in the tunnel. It's no substitution for the former emission free Dual Bus operation that used to run in the tunnel, but it's a start until the Light Rail cars arrive. IIRC, when KCM originally looked at the DE60LFs, they were hoping that the hybrid battery would be strong enough to operate independently in the tunnel without diesel power. Unfortunately, the technology doesn't seem to be feasible (or reasonably priced) at the moment.

I'm sure all of the DE60LFs coming from New Flyer have the Hush Mode function, but are disabled from use. When Seattle's tunnel was closed for renovation, the feature was temporarily disabled from the surface running DE60LFs.

[ibebobo]

Just saw 4014 southbound on 94 around Dempster.

[cta5658]

Just saw 4014 southbound on 94 around Dempster.

Was It Headed to NP Or 103