#4000 Arrives

[sw4400]

Today I went out on LaSalle to hunt down a 4000 to check out and ride. I caught 4006 downtown and got off it at Division/LaSalle. Upon my exiting the rear door, I got to see them be problematic firsthand. I quickly shot some video of it. Here is what I got: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXCOgCtiNk0

Anybody want to do some scientific investigation as to why the same CLASS style rear door works on a New Flyer D40LF and DE40LF, but fails on a New Flyer DE60LF or a NABI 60-LFW(as many have mentioned about rear door troubles with NABI's)? I'm going to speculate that it has something to do with the fact it is not a whole bus(by that I mean it's joined in the middle by an accordian). The 40 footers have no problem with these doors. I think the bus manufacturers ought to make a 60' bus just to test and remedy these door problems like we saw 4006 having downtown. Until then, CTA should have these buses ordered with the standard pushbar-style rear door we've been using on the M.A.N Articulateds in the '80's. They worked great for the most part.

[Busjack]

Today I went out on LaSalle to hunt down a 4000 to check out and ride. I caught 4006 downtown and got off it at Division/LaSalle. Upon my exiting the rear door, I got to see them be problematic firsthand. I quickly shot some video of it. Here is what I got: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXCOgCtiNk0

The flapping in the wind was real impressive.

[Busjack]

Anybody want to do some scientific investigation as to why the same CLASS style rear door works on a New Flyer D40LF and DE40LF, but fails on a New Flyer DE60LF or a NABI 60-LFW(as many have mentioned about rear door troubles with NABI's)?

CTA had mentioned rear door problems on NABIs, but it was the alignment of the air engines, not anything having to do with CLASS. IIRC, the NABIs have push bars (and the standard "la puerta easy out" signs), while CLASS was first tried on 7800.

What might be a distinction is where the sonic pulse is focused, or where the detectors are located. The YouTube, mentioned above, in combination with the CLASS demonstration, might indicate something similar to a garage door opener detecting an obstruction and going halfway down and then back up, on a repeated basis. Also, I wonder if the artics have wider doors than the 40 footers.

[MT0851]

What might be a distinction is where the sonic pulse is focused, or where the detectors are located. The YouTube, mentioned above, in combination with the CLASS demonstration, might indicate something similar to a garage door opener detecting an obstruction and going halfway down and then back up, on a repeated basis. Also, I wonder if the artics have wider doors than the 40 footers.

The doors are wider, on all NFI artics the rear doors are double stream doors.

Anybody want to do some scientific investigation as to why the same CLASS style rear door works on a New Flyer D40LF and DE40LF, but fails on a New Flyer DE60LF or a NABI 60-LFW(as many have mentioned about rear door troubles with NABI's)? I'm going to speculate that it has something to do with the fact it is not a whole bus(by that I mean it's joined in the middle by an accordian). The 40 footers have no problem with these doors. I think the bus manufacturers ought to make a 60' bus just to test and remedy these door problems like we saw 4006 having downtown. Until then, CTA should have these buses ordered with the standard pushbar-style rear door we've been using on the M.A.N Articulateds in the '80's. They worked great for the most part.

What does the fact that it's an artic have to do with it? They still have the same Vansco Multiplex electrical system as the D40LFs and DE40LFs.

[BusHunter]

CTA had mentioned rear door problems on NABIs, but it was the alignment of the air engines, not anything having to do with CLASS. IIRC, the NABIs have push bars (and the standard "la puerta easy out" signs), while CLASS was first tried on 7800.

What might be a distinction is where the sonic pulse is focused, or where the detectors are located. The YouTube, mentioned above, in combination with the CLASS demonstration, might indicate something similar to a garage door opener detecting an obstruction and going halfway down and then back up, on a repeated basis. Also, I wonder if the artics have wider doors than the 40 footers.

That's the same exact thing I witnessed on the pilot #4000 with the doors repeating. What triggers that is when the doors close about 25 percent if someone walks in front of the door, the door automatically reopens so it doesn't injure the exiting passenger. Sometimes this will make the door start repeating. Though a garage door works by detecting force or an obstruction, the #4000 door is done by detecting movement in front of the sensors. Something is telling the door an obstruction is present so it repeats. The problem is that once this gets tripped what makes it turn off is at fault. That's the weak link. Wait until we have 150 of these buses floating around. This is going to be a common problem that will plague these doors. It should be interesting to see the 58 BRT's if in fact there coming. These need to have an operator only operated rear door which they'll probably have. One thing I can say about the pace #6000's or pace NABI's. I have never seen this problem on their doors. If only the CTA ordered these doors that way there would be no problems. I've seen an operator only rear door on the NF artic demonstator I rode on the #152 in 1997. It had no problems. Sometimes the simplier something is the better. More computers and chips to maintain ultimately means more problems. Welcome to the 21st century.

[sw4400]

What does the fact that it's an artic have to do with it? They still have the same electrical system as the D40LFs and DE40LFs.

I wish I had an answer, MT0851. I'm just going on the fact that the 40' New Flyers have these same style doors and have no problems with them, whereas the 60' New Flyers have problems with them, usually forcing the driver to manually override them or tell passenger not to use the rear doors.

There has to be a reason for this issue, though. Why the same technology works on a 40' bus, but not on a 60' bus... :blink:

[Busjack]

The doors are wider, on all NFI artics the rear doors are double stream doors.

What does the fact that it's an artic have to do with it? They still have the same Vansco Multiplex electrical system as the D40LFs and DE40LFs.

If you had read the part of my post that you quoted, the problem is probably with how the detectors are deployed or programmed, which has nothing to do with the multiplex system.

See also BusHunter's post, which to me, as a layperson, seems a pretty good summary.

You seem to bring up irrelevancies, such as your YouTube on push bar bus doors. Are you a bus mechanic, or just guessing from afar?

[BusHunter]

I wish I had an answer, MT0851. I'm just going on the fact that the 40' New Flyers have these same style doors and have no problems with them, whereas the 60' New Flyers have problems with them, usually forcing the driver to manually override them or tell passenger not to use the rear doors.

There has to be a reason for this issue, though. Why the same technology works on a 40' bus, but not on a 60' bus...

Comparing the 40's and 60's I believe the gap between where you are supposed to put your hand to exit between the 60's door is wider than the 40's. If the sensors were not properly adjusted for this difference, that could be one reason why people can't open the doors. From what I observed, women with small hands have the problem more than anyone. I have never had a problem, but I have wide hands. the sensor could be catching such a wide target easier than a smaller one. The #4006 problem that's just a defective reset from the sensors. A manufacturers recall versus an engineering default. BTW, if you really want to use science take a ruler and measure the gaps and sensors and you just might prove my theory.

[nflyer22]

Anybody want to do some scientific investigation as to why the same CLASS style rear door works on a New Flyer D40LF and DE40LF, but fails on a New Flyer DE60LF or a NABI 60-LFW(as many have mentioned about rear door troubles with NABI's)? I'm going to speculate that it has something to do with the fact it is not a whole bus(by that I mean it's joined in the middle by an accordian). The 40 footers have no problem with these doors. I think the bus manufacturers ought to make a 60' bus just to test and remedy these door problems like we saw 4006 having downtown. Until then, CTA should have these buses ordered with the standard pushbar-style rear door we've been using on the M.A.N Articulateds in the '80's. They worked great for the most part.

I wish I had an answer, MT0851. I'm just going on the fact that the 40' New Flyers have these same style doors and have no problems with them, whereas the 60' New Flyers have problems with them, usually forcing the driver to manually override them or tell passenger not to use the rear doors.

There has to be a reason for this issue, though. Why the same technology works on a 40' bus, but not on a 60' bus...

Several months back, almost a year ago, I rode New Flyer 1111 home from school back when it was still in its Archer days. At Roosevelt, a passenger exited through the rear door, and had the same problem as what I'm hearing currently on the 4000s, where the rear door would close somewhat 25% of the way, then flap back open, and repeat itself again. It happened constantly whenever a passenger used the rear door on that ride home. Whomever has ridden 1111 within this whole year, I'd like to hear how whether CTA addressed the problem or it's still rolling out there with that problem, since I haven't ridden 1111 or any NF ever since the transfer of Archer's former NFs to Chicago, and now, some to 74th.

[MT0851]

If you had read the part of my post that you quoted, the problem is probably with how the detectors are deployed or programmed, which has nothing to do with the multiplex system.

See also BusHunter's post, which to me, as a layperson, seems a pretty good summary.

You seem to bring up irrelevancies, such as your YouTube on push bar bus doors. Are you a bus mechanic, or just guessing from afar?

If anything you're the one bringing up irelevancies because the only reason I quoted your post was to tell you that the artics indeed do have wider rear doors than the 40 footers.

The only reason I brought up the multiplexe system was because sw4400 was wondering if the doors don't work because it's an artic, so I was just telling him that the 40 footers and artics have the same electrical system, so it's because of that.

As for the youtube video I posted, that was because someone was asking if there's a switch that forces the rear doors shut and turns off the rear door interlock, and I told them that there is and that there's one on all NFI buses and I posted that video to show them it being used, as it's rarely ever used, up in Mississauga atleast.

I don't know why you seem to dislike and doubt me so much, I haven't done or said anything to you, or maybe it's the fact that I'm Canadian, I don't really know. I may not be a bus mechanic myself, however I know a few, but I'm definitly not guessing afar.

[Buslover88]

I don't know why you seem to dislike and doubt me so much, I haven't done or said anything to you, or maybe it's the fact that I'm Canadian, I don't really know.

Why would you say such a thing? Nobody dislikes you. Sure, Busjack may not agree with your opinions, facts or whatever they are, but i'm pretty sure that nobody dislikes you.

[Busjack]

If anything you're the one bringing up irelevancies because the only reason I quoted your post was to tell you that the artics indeed do have wider rear doors than the 40 footers....

I don't know why you seem to dislike and doubt me so much, I haven't done or said anything to you, or maybe it's the fact that I'm Canadian, I don't really know. I may not be a bus mechanic myself, however I know a few, but I'm definitly not guessing afar.

The reason why your posts are irrelevant is that others have demonstrated that the problem is with the CLASS system. Thus, the pushbar door video, by definition, has nothing to do with it. Also, unless the defect was either in the interlock or the multiplex system, bringing them up had nothing to do with the problem either. DE60LFs and D40LFs might have the same headlights, too, but that isn't relevant to the CLASS system, either.

On the other hand, BusHunter's posts seem on point, whether or not he has the answer. The bus mechanic question was on whether you have any expertise on how these operate, and thus, for instance, could say that the problem was with the interlock.

Getting back to the subject, which at the moment is CLASS on 4000s, one would think that since the component manufacturer's headquarters are in Buffalo Grove (and assumedly this is a US part to meet Buy America requirements), one would think Vapor would send someone out to diagnose and fix the problem.

[MT0851]

Why would you say such a thing? Nobody dislikes you. Sure, Busjack may not agree with your opinions, facts or whatever they are, but i'm pretty sure that nobody dislikes you.

I'm just getting that negative vibe off of him, because I'm not the only one posting these so called "irrelevancies" that may not be relevant to the topic, but are relevant to the question being asked and I seem to be the only one who's being targeted by him.

The reason why your posts are irrelevant is that others have demonstrated that the problem is with the CLASS system. Thus, the pushbar door video, by definition, has nothing to do with it. Also, unless the defect was either in the interlock or the multiplex system, bringing them up had nothing to do with the problem either. DE60LFs and D40LFs might have the same headlights, too, but that isn't relevant to the CLASS system, either.

On the other hand, BusHunter's posts seem on point, whether or not he has the answer. The bus mechanic question was on whether you have any expertise on how these operate, and thus, for instance, could say that the problem was with the interlock.

Like I said above, they may not be exactly relevant to the topic being discussed, but they are relevant to the questions being asked, and IMO, that's relevant.

I don't really care anymore though, let's just agree on something getting back to the topic.

[BusHunter]

Several months back, almost a year ago, I rode New Flyer 1111 home from school back when it was still in its Archer days. At Roosevelt, a passenger exited through the rear door, and had the same problem as what I'm hearing currently on the 4000s, where the rear door would close somewhat 25% of the way, then flap back open, and repeat itself again. It happened constantly whenever a passenger used the rear door on that ride home. Whomever has ridden 1111 within this whole year, I'd like to hear how whether CTA addressed the problem or it's still rolling out there with that problem, since I haven't ridden 1111 or any NF ever since the transfer of Archer's former NFs to Chicago, and now, some to 74th.

#1637 had the same problem when delivered. What the #1000's have going for them and CLASS and the #4000's don't. Is that you can still open the doors even if the sensor doesn't pick you up. The repeating problems are not that bad on #1000's and I've only seen it a few times on nearly 950 buses. On the other hand I've seen this twice already on 20 #4000's.

[BusExpert32]

Depends on your definition of "last," since the number isn't even definite. Maybe you are asking about 4149? Anyway, since BusAngel says he doesn't have the list, we can't help you.

It used to be predictable that 74th was the last to get anything, but that broke down with 1731. However, one can guess that NP and A are the least likely (NP because it has NABIs and basically just LSD routes and A until such time as X49 goes BRT).

103 is up in the air in my mind, since while Jeffery was announced as being part of the BRT project, it is not clear that these 150 leased buses are; indications, including from daerah are that those will be part of the mystery 58.

Since Kedzie is definite, good bets are still C and 77. Because of Ashland and 63, I would still put money on 74 after that and, similarly, because of 77 and 81 wouldn't rule out FG.

Although Archer, Chicago, Forest Glen, and 74th can never be ruled out for sure as contenders for the 4000s, it still looks like they won't recieve any of the current 150 bus 4000-series. With Kedzie first, and now the North Park/103rd split for these new artics, I would infer that the CTA is just going to give the remainder to 77th, since it seems that they're only going to give 4000s to the garages that already have 7500s to either suplement the service for maintnence work on the NABIs or to just increase the number of 60 footers on routes that already use them.

But yet again, one can never put a bet on these inferences.

[Busjack]

Also I haven't seen Kedzie's #4007, #4010 or #4011.

I was able to ride my first New Flyer Hybrid Artic today, 4002, on the 156. ...

The new car (er bus) smell hits you before the doors open....

I made my way back to the trailer part, on the high floor part...where I go for any bus ride I am on. First impression....Q-U-I-E-T. Very quiet....it reminded me of riding the old Marmon trolleys...same kind of transmission hum you would hear...no motor, just the whine of the transmission. After a short time (maybe 20 seconds) you would hear a very soft purring of the engine itself. ...

I rode on 4010 about 4 p.m. today on 156. I wouldn't necessarily call it "new car smell," but the overwhelming vapor of formaldehyde or some solvent.

Based on trainman's post, I was listening for engine sounds, and while it sounded a couple of times like it was starting in second gear (indicating that the startup was using the electric engine, as intended), one really couldn't tell because the HVAC fan at the back was louder than the engine.

The rear door, while not as responsive as the push bar type, did open for those who used it.

Also, due to the fan noise, I really couldn't tell if Mr. CTA used the German or Chicago pronunciation of Goethe, but it sounded like the German. Mr. CTA also had a lot of plugs for ctabustracker.com, and told people to use the rear door.

[MVTArider]

....Mr. CTA also had a lot of plugs for ctabustracker.com, and told people to use the rear door.

“Please be careful and avoid foul language and vandalism as you exit the bus, especially at night and in inclement weather.â€

[BusExpert32]

“Please be careful and avoid foul language and vandalism as you exit the bus, especially at night and in inclement weather.â€

That doesn't seem to be the correct wording of the quote. I think Mr. CTA only says to be careful when exiting the bus in inclement weather; he has foul language and vandalism warnings in other quotes.

Taken from chicagobus.org: “Please be careful and hold on as you exit the bus, especially at night and in inclement weather.”

[jacksone44]

I disagree - in today's economy, I don't think transit agencies should be overspending on fancy BRT-styled buses when a less-expensive version of the exact same bus can be purchased. Service that is convenient and runs on time, using clean and well-maintained vehicles, operated by courteous and well-trained professional drivers - that will attract new riders. On the other hand, no one will care how sleek the bus is or how cool the paint job may be if the bus is late, filthy, or breaks down, or is driven by a rude jerk.

I agree and disagree with you...

The Fancy BRT styling makes the general think in a different way about taking a bus (to an extent), which in turn could attract more riders (marketing tool). When transit officials and lawmakers come together about finding transit solutions for a region, they are no doubt thinking long term. While the economic issues that we face today are can be addressed in the short term (2-4 years), BRT dollars can be justified if a BRT Styled bus can be used as a marketing tool to attract more passengers than a conventional BRT bus. But I do agree with you in the fact that the service needs to be clean, courteous, safe, efficient and ontime to also attract riders.

[Buslover88]

That doesn't seem to be the correct wording of the quote. I think Mr. CTA only says to be careful when exiting the bus in inclement weather; he has foul language and vandalism warnings in other quotes.

Taken from chicagobus.org: “Please be careful and hold on as you exit the bus, especially at night and in inclement weather.â€

I think it was just a joke, BusExpert32.

[greenstreet]

According to CTA's roster that they regularly provide to staff and vendors (sometimes daily), New Flyer artic deliveries are up to 22:

Recent activity:

103rd received 4018, 4020, 4024 & 4026

North Park received 4023

Current distribution:

Kedzie: 4000-4006, 4008, 4009; total of 9

North Park: Odds -4013, 4015, 4017, 4021 and 4023; Total of 5

103rd: Evens 4012-4026; total of 8

Oddly, bus 4011, which Jacksone44 saw on Nov 25, is not listed on CTA's roster.

[trainman8119]

Oddly, bus 4011, which Jacksone44 saw on Nov 25, is not listed on CTA's roster.

Must have been overlooked at Kedzie, seeing as he actually rode on it

on the 156.

[Busjack]

According to CTA's roster that they regularly provide to staff and vendors (sometimes daily), New Flyer artic deliveries are up to 22:

Recent activity:

103rd received 4018, 4020, 4024 & 4026

North Park received 4023

Current distribution:

Kedzie: 4000-4006, 4008, 4009; total of 9

North Park: Odds -4013, 4015, 4017, 4021 and 4023; Total of 5

103rd: Evens 4012-4026; total of 8

Oddly, bus 4011, which Jacksone44 saw on Nov 25, is not listed on CTA's roster.

Also, I had said that I had ridden 4010. Apparently, the roster (thank you for describing your source) isn't up to date.

Also, when I boarded 1860 on route 112 there was a CTA employee on the bus who noticed the smell and mentioned it to the driver. The employee didn't like the smell.

If you mean the "new car smell," what was wrong with it? Did the employee expect the usual smell of urine or vomit?

Now, having experienced the smell (which was pretty much like a xylene and toluene solvent I used to try to remove bathroom caulk), I now see what the driver was talking about, and withdraw my previous comment.

[BusHunter]

According to CTA's roster that they regularly provide to staff and vendors (sometimes daily), New Flyer artic deliveries are up to 22:

Recent activity:

103rd received 4018, 4020, 4024 & 4026

North Park received 4023

Current distribution:

Kedzie: 4000-4006, 4008, 4009; total of 9

North Park: Odds -4013, 4015, 4017, 4021 and 4023; Total of 5

103rd: Evens 4012-4026; total of 8

Oddly, bus 4011, which Jacksone44 saw on Nov 25, is not listed on CTA's roster.

With all the #4000's that are showing up at NP/103rd, I still hadn't seen any in service until last night when I saw #4014 on the #14. The destination read CTA Program and all other signs were blank. Something a bit odd, when Jacksone44 reported #4011 on the #156, I was looking at Bustracker and did not see the bus. I dismissed it thinking it was on the outer drive out of service at the moment I was looking. Then Busjack's #4010 was reported and I was looking that day at 4PM when he said he's on the bus and didn't see that either. Weird. They seem to be not appearing on Bustracker.

[Busjack]

Something a bit odd, when Jacksone44 reported #4011 on the #156, I was looking at Bustracker and did not see the bus. I dismissed it thinking it was on the outer drive out of service at the moment I was looking. Then Busjack's #4010 was reported and I was looking that day at 4PM when he said he's on the bus and didn't see that either. Weird. They seem to be not appearing on Bustracker.

For that matter, I have never seen 4000 on it.

While the equipment is probably not set up, one of the reasons 4010 might not have been on BusTracker on a consistent basis is that the bus only went to Belmont and Sheridan, put "Not in Service" on its sign, and then went south on Lake Shore Drive. I assume, at least with regard to CTA buses, that a "Not in Service" bus off route is not shown (which would confirm your "it was on the outer drive out of service at the moment I was looking"; it would have been, but starting at about 4:25; it was "in service" from about 3:55 to 4:25).

However, to verify this. all of us would have to have web enabled cell phones when riding. Not likely. Now, if you can read something off my transit card, I still have that.