7500-series NABI 60-LFW - Retirements

[Guest]

Mississauga Transit has the longest experience with low floor artics, going back to 1997. We've never had any serious problems with them that caused the fleet to be grounded. Also for wordguy, here in Mississauga we have worse winter conditions than you guys down in Chicago.

We also had the same exact problem with our D60LFRs that Ottawa is currently experiencing. MT's fleet wasn't grounded or pulled off the road though. Mechanics inspected the hole fleet as they came back to the garage after ending service and any sheared bolts were replaced on the spot.

I doubt the CTA's will experience the same problem seeing as the problem appeared on Mississauga's units last summer and you guys didin't get your DE60LFs till October.

Also for the record, the problem with the bolt leads all the way back to ATG, the manufacturer of the joint for NFI artics.

The difference though is Mississauga didnt operate the Nabi artics. Im sure the NF artics now in service here in Chicago will do a much better job as opposed to these Nabis we had.

[Anonymous Guy]

D40LFs of the same vintage are still running strong at other transit agencies (particularly in Canada, where some of the oldest D40LFs are still in service).

Interestingly enough, the first D60LF made (demonstrator model) is still in service.

[santran]

NP is starting to transfer the rest of the NABI fleet to the south shops. There are still about 25-35 in the NE part of the yard. FINALY

[Guest]

NP is starting to transfer the rest of the NABI fleet to the south shops. There are still about 25-35 in the NE part of the yard. FINALY

Are they being driven or towed?

[BusHunter]

11 of the 25 Nabis at 103rd have went to the shredder, with 10 more being prepped to go out soon. So soon there shouldn't be hardly any Nabi's at 103rd. Also something has seemed to happen to #4071. It has been taken off the 1/30 roster.

[Busjack]

11 of the 25 Nabis at 103rd have went to the shredder, with 10 more being prepped to go out soon. So soon there shouldn't be hardly any Nabi's at 103rd....

The original newspaper article said 10 a week, so I guess the process has started. Only another 20 weeks to go.

[dann]

11 of the 25 Nabis at 103rd have went to the shredder, with 10 more being prepped to go out soon. So soon there shouldn't be hardly any Nabi's at 103rd. Also something has seemed to happen to #4071. It has been taken off the 1/30 roster.

Glad to see those giant paperweights finally going away. And I think 4071 is in the same boat as 4097, undergoing some kind of major repair.

[DevalDragon]

Has anybody figured out where the NABI's are going? They are not going to SMI at 95th and Ewing as the Flexibles did.

[sw4400]

Has anybody figured out where the NABI's are going? They are not going to SMI at 95th and Ewing as the Flexibles did.

Not me.... all I know is they're going off to an early demise. It's unfortunate because on the outside, they looked nice. But the suspensions and terrible articulation joints did them in.

[Busjack]

I searched the vendor database for contract number 103634 but came up with nothing.

Usual lack of transparency by the CTA.

[Chicago13]

Today at about 2 pm, I saw 7633 on the back end of a tow truck going northbound on the Dan Ryan at 87th st.

[nflyer22]

Today at about 2 pm, I saw 7633 on the back end of a tow truck going northbound on the Dan Ryan at 87th st.

Heh, what coincidence: a little after 2pm I was waiting for the Red Line at Cermak-Chinatown to run some errands when I saw 7633 on that tow truck coming off of the Dan Ryan ramp and turning left, headed westbound on Cermak. Wondering where it's headed.

[Busjack]

Heh, what coincidence: a little after 2pm I was waiting for the Red Line at Cermak-Chinatown to run some errands when I saw 7633 on that tow truck coming off of the Dan Ryan ramp and turning left, headed westbound on Cermak. Wondering where it's headed.

Sounds like the place at 34th and Lawndale that got busted for scrapping the stolen school buses.

I bet, though, it is somewhere between here and there. There is a scrap yard at 1000 W. Cermak.

[Busjack]

Between Andre mentioning Sims and BusHunter mentioning ordinances, I found Ordinance 012-148:

Sims Metal Scrap Management

sale of up to 226 NABI buses
Req. 103634 $ 1,107,890.00

On nflyrer22's report of seeing one in Chinatown, Sims has facilities at 2425 S. Wood St. and 2500 S. Paulina St., as well as the better known one at 9331 S. Ewing.

[Busjack]

....

I couldn't help but notice SIMS management paid $1.1 million for the NABI bus scrap contract. Add that to the NABi court judgment, $36 million and the total comes to about $37.11 million. It cost the CTA $102 million to purchase the buses, so they almost got half there money back and the buses were used for 3-6 years so in the end CTA probably came out a winner.

Don't forget that CTA withheld about $13 million on the final payment, which is why NABI originally brought the suit. So, it comes out to $51 million, which is one half, and as you note the buses were about half depreciated.

This was the predictable amount I said near the beginning, except that CTA apparently has to take part of the settlement in parts from (now) the New Flyer parts operation, and does not get paid immediately.

[BusHunter]

Don't forget that CTA withheld about $13 million on the final payment, which is why NABI originally brought the suit. So, it comes out to $51 million, which is one half, and as you note the buses were about half depreciated.

This was the predictable amount I said near the beginning, except that CTA apparently has to take part of the settlement in parts from (now) the New Flyer parts operation, and does not get paid immediately.

Wow then CTA did better than I thought they did. They got half their money back without figuring depreciation. BTW, did you ever find an ordinance for #1005, or would that be considered something done in house?

[BusHunter]

The latest roster has taken these 122 buses off the stored list and put them on the retired list. They claim to have 53 NABI's still on the stored list.

#7510, #7511, #7523, #7525, #7527, #7537, #7540, #7544, #7545, #7554, #7555, #7558, #7562, #7564, #7565, #7567, #7568, #7570-72, #7574, #7575, #7578-81, #7585-92, #7595-#7600, #7602-05, #7607-10, #7613, #7615, #7621, #7625-32, #7634-39, #7641-44, #7646 -51, #7653, #7655, #7661, #7663, #7665-68, #7670, #7672, #7674-78, #7680, #7681, #7683-85, #7688-94, #7696-99, #7703, #7707-11, #7718-20, #7723

[Busjack]

The latest roster has taken these 122 buses off the stored list and put them on the retired list. They claim to have 53 NABI's still on the stored list.

#7510, #7511, #7523, #7525, #7527, #7537, #7540, #7544, #7545, #7554, #7555, #7558, #7562, #7564, #7565, #7567, #7568, #7570-72, #7574, #7575, #7578-81, #7585-92, #7595-#7600, #7602-05, #7607-10, #7613, #7615, #7621, #7625-32, #7634-39, #7641-44, #7646 -51, #7653, #7655, #7661, #7663, #7665-68, #7670, #7672, #7674-78, #7680, #7681, #7683-85, #7688-94, #7696-99, #7703, #7707-11, #7718-20, #7723

Those numbers would still leave 51 unaccounted, and thus probably scrapped before these 122 were.

[garmon757]

The latest roster has taken these 122 buses off the stored list and put them on the retired list. They claim to have 53 NABI's still on the stored list.

#7510, #7511, #7523, #7525, #7527, #7537, #7540, #7544, #7545, #7554, #7555, #7558, #7562, #7564, #7565, #7567, #7568, #7570-72, #7574, #7575, #7578-81, #7585-92, #7595-#7600, #7602-05, #7607-10, #7613, #7615, #7621, #7625-32, #7634-39, #7641-44, #7646 -51, #7653, #7655, #7661, #7663, #7665-68, #7670, #7672, #7674-78, #7680, #7681, #7683-85, #7688-94, #7696-99, #7703, #7707-11, #7718-20, #7723

#7681 is gone from 77th.

[sw4400]

The latest roster has taken these 122 buses off the stored list and put them on the retired list. They claim to have 53 NABI's still on the stored list.

#7510, #7511, #7523, #7525, #7527, #7537, #7540, #7544, #7545, #7554, #7555, #7558, #7562, #7564, #7565, #7567, #7568, #7570-72, #7574, #7575, #7578-81, #7585-92, #7595-#7600, #7602-05, #7607-10, #7613, #7615, #7621, #7625-32, #7634-39, #7641-44, #7646 -51, #7653, #7655, #7661, #7663, #7665-68, #7670, #7672, #7674-78, #7680, #7681, #7683-85, #7688-94, #7696-99, #7703, #7707-11, #7718-20, #7723

So if this is the retired list, this must be the buses that would be on the stored list... about 103 buses. Out of these, the 53 NABI's still on the stored list would be here. The rest are probably scrapped or heading there.

7500-7509,7512-7522,7524,7526,7528-7536,7538,7539,7541-7543,7546-7553,7556-7557,7559-7561,7563,7566,

7569,7573,7576-7577,7582-7584,7593-7594,7601,7606,7611-7612,7614,7616-7620,7622-7624,7633,7640,7645,

7652,7654,7656-7660,7662,7664,7669,7671,7673,7679,7682,7686-7687,7695,7700-7702,7704-7706,7712-7717,

7721-7722,7724-7725

[BusHunter]

So if this is the retired list, this must be the buses that would be on the stored list... about 103 buses. Out of these, the 53 NABI's still on the stored list would be here. The rest are probably scrapped or heading there. 7500-7509,7512-7522,7524,7526,7528-7536,7538,7539,7541-7543,7546-7553,7556-7557,7559-7561,7563,7566,7569,7573,7576-7577,7582-7584,7593-7594,7601,7606,7611-7612,7614,7616-7620,7622-7624,7633,7640,7645,7652,7654,7656-7660,7662,7664,7669,7671,7673,7679,7682,7686-7687,7695,7700-7702,7704-7706,7712-7717,7721-7722,7724-7725

There's another list floating around that has the other 50 #7500's that have went from stored to retired or scrapped. I'll see if I can find it. This is just the current developments. So before this month there was 170 stored. I'm assuming the scrapper has permission to take from the retired pool, of course with the go ahead from CTA.

[andrethebusman]

Except you missed at least two points:

• CTA hasn't officially retired the NABIs yet. Read up a couple of posts, and especially the Tribune article.
• The replacement buses will not be paid for by federal money. It comes either from the lease (and while we don't know what funds will be used to pay the lease, they won't be federal) or the state capital bill. So, the situation is like when NYC replaced the Grumman Flxs with RTSs and sold the Grummans to N.J. As long as federal funds were not used for the replacements, no problem.

I had thought as you did before, but now am convinced otherwise. The only thing of which I am still convinced is that garage foremen can't make that decision (as some "I told you so" claimed); it will be up the the CTA Board to rubber stamp what management decides, as implied by the ctattattler.

Also, with the erratic way government agencies are acting lately, I wouldn't accept your or another poster's assertions about what the FTA will do or not do. There are such things as waivers, but other than that, I'm not going into that further with the other guy.

Actually, the New York Grumman situation was a bit different. The RTS's that actually replaced them had nothing to do with how the deal worked financially. On paper the 870's were "replaced" by the 300 or so fishbowls that NYCTA had Blitz rebuild in the 5000 series. The money that NYCTA got for the 810 870's that were sold back to Flxible paid off the rest. Flxible then sold 500 to NJTransit, 120 to Cincinnati, and 25 to San Juan PR, and probably the rest to Nimco the scrapper.

[andrethebusman]

One more comment about the New York 870 situation and how similar it is to the 7500 situation: I lived in New York in 1982 when the 870's were almost new. They were in terrible condition. Drivers hated them, and kept saying the garages will not fix anything on them. So there was definitely an attitude of "we hate these things". Now notice what was going on in the last days of 7500's - also an attitude of "what kind of excuse can we use to get rid of them?" CTA even did a better job of preparing for their demise, as their direct replacements, the 4000-4149 NFIL's, were almost all delivered when one day all of a sudden, they were condemned. No real bus shortage, everything settled down to normal in week. Even New York did not do such a good job of planning an "unforseen" event and had to borrow 200 Washington buses in a big hurry to make schedule. I strongly suspect that the decision had been made to dump the 7500's probably several months, maybe as many as six months, in advance, as the rumor mills at the time kept saying, and was delayed until the replacements were in and then all of a sudden an "excuse" was come up with. I refuse to believe there was no advance planning involved, it all went just too smoothly...

[jajuan]

One more comment about the New York 870 situation and how similar it is to the 7500 situation: I lived in New York in 1982 when the 870's were almost new. They were in terrible condition. Drivers hated them, and kept saying the garages will not fix anything on them. So there was definitely an attitude of "we hate these things". Now notice what was going on in the last days of 7500's - also an attitude of "what kind of excuse can we use to get rid of them?" CTA even did a better job of preparing for their demise, as their direct replacements, the 4000-4149 NFIL's, were almost all delivered when one day all of a sudden, they were condemned. No real bus shortage, everything settled down to normal in week. Even New York did not do such a good job of planning an "unforseen" event and had to borrow 200 Washington buses in a big hurry to make schedule. I strongly suspect that the decision had been made to dump the 7500's probably several months, maybe as many as six months, in advance, as the rumor mills at the time kept saying, and was delayed until the replacements were in and then all of a sudden an "excuse" was come up with. I refuse to believe there was no advance planning involved, it all went just too smoothly...

While you are correct that CTA first got themselves in a better position to not incur a bus shortage for very long and very likely wanted to scrap the NABIs long before they actually pulled them (there were the reports of Ron Huberman actually negotiating with the FTA to pull them as early as September of the previous year), I strongly disagree with your assessment that they were looking for an excuse, as you put it, to do so. Those buses just were flat out terrible buses from a structural standpoint even they were cosmetically and asthetically good buses to a number of forum members. Busjack found evidence that they didn't even pass the Altoona tests before CTA gave the green light to have them built and they were plagued with all kinds of problems almost since the first day they arrived in town. They had very bad suspension problems constantly. You almost always saw one rolling on the Lake Shore express routes, where that bus was either drooping in the middle or rear or leaning on its whole left or right side because the suspension in one or more of the axles gave out. And I can tell you stories of riding one on the 147 Outer Drive Express route and witnessing several seats in the rear sitting empty because those folks may have experienced first hand being thrown several feet above their seats from one of those buses hitting a bump on one of the Lake Drive overpasses. And I'm sure many people know of the design flaw in just about every Flxible Metro model that caused these buses to experience some pretty bad leaking around the ceiling escape hatches during any moderate amount of rain regardless of the year of the model or the operating TA. I can tell you some of those NABI artics gave the Flxibles a run for their money in this regard. Plus by the time they got pulled, a large number of them were sitting sidelined at their respective garages for repairs twice as long as the far older 4400, 5300, 5800 and 6000 series buses that also were still in service at the time, which is supposed to be unheard of for a relatively young bus model So rest assured the CTA's reasons for pulling the plug far earlier than their 12 year FTA service life were more than just some random flippant excuse as you're trying to paint the situation to be.

[artthouwill]

While you are correct that CTA first got themselves in a better position to not incur a bus shortage for very long and very likely wanted to scrap the NABIs long before they actually pulled them (there were the reports of Ron Huberman actually negotiating with the FTA to pull them as early as September of the previous year), I strongly disagree with your assessment that they were looking for an excuse, as you put it, to do so. Those buses just were flat out terrible buses from a structural standpoint even they were cosmetically and asthetically good buses to a number of forum members. Busjack found evidence that they didn't even pass the Altoona tests before CTA gave the green light to have them built and they were plagued with all kinds of problems almost since the first day they arrived in town. They had very bad suspension problems constantly. You almost always saw one rolling on the Lake Shore express routes, where that bus was either drooping in the middle or rear or leaning on its whole left or right side because the suspension in one or more of the axles gave out. And I can tell you stories of riding one on the 147 Outer Drive Express route and witnessing several seats in the rear sitting empty because those folks may have experienced first hand being thrown several feet above their seats from one of those buses hitting a bump on one of the Lake Drive overpasses. And I'm sure many people know of the design flaw in just about every Flxible Metro model that caused these buses to experience some pretty bad leaking around the ceiling escape hatches during any moderate amount of rain regardless of the year of the model or the operating TA. I can tell you some of those NABI artics gave the Flxibles a run for their money in this regard. Plus by the time they got pulled, a large number of them were sitting sidelined at their respective garages for repairs twice as long as the far older 4400, 5300, 5800 and 6000 series buses that also were still in service at the time, which is supposed to be unheard of for a relatively young bus model So rest assured the CTA's reasons for pulling the plug far earlier than their 12 year FTA service life were more than just some random flippant excuse as you're trying to paint the situation to be.

To add to this, CTA was in the beginning stages of receiving the New Flyer artics when the NABI artics were pulled from service. For about a week there was indeed a shortage and a lot of bus swapping to cover runs, particularly the Lakefront Expresses on both sides of town. I think the first deliveries were concentrated on covering the 6, 14, 146, and 147 routes.

As for the Grunman buses, how unfortunate that situation was. If I read correctly, there were two prototypes that Rohr had purchased when they bought Flxble. For whatever reason, Rohr picked the prototype with the flawed frame cracking. I think the bigger mistake was ceasing production of the Flxble New Looks, at least immediately. While I absolutely loved the 870s, I wonder what the other prototype was and if it had any significant problems. We know that Flx eventually fixed the problems at the Flx Metros were very successful until Flx closed shop with orders looming from different transit agencies, CTA being one..