West Division - Changes & Restructuring

[chicagocubs6323]

11 hours ago, TaylorTank1229 said:

True. But that’s what I saw on the website.

I tried looking it up yesterday but couldn't find it.  Do you mind providing a link?

[busfan2847]

1 hour ago, chicagocubs6323 said:

I tried looking it up yesterday but couldn't find it.  Do you mind providing a link?

On the Pace front page in the following section (scroll down on the page):

"Pace Eliminating Three Poorly Performing Services

Several routes approved for elimination as part of the Pace 2019 budget will take their last trips this summer. Pace's 2019 budget included the elimination of 12 poorly performing services in total and the reallocation $1.2 million into a $1.7 million service enhancement effort that will reduce overcrowding, improve on-time performance, and support the launch of the Pulse Milwaukee Line, which is expected this fall.

On August 9, Pace Routes 304 and 326 will take their last trips.

Service enhancements on nearby Routes 330 and 331 will help compensate for the elimination of these two routes. Pace has worked to encourage ridership on these routes, but they have not performed to the agency's standards. As a responsible steward of taxpayer dollars, Pace can no longer support these routes which do not generate the necessary fare revenue.

Service has already been cut on several other routes this year. Routes 362, 532, 661, 809 and 824 were eliminated, and Saturday service was eliminated on Routes 209, 348, 540, 504 and 546."

[MetroShadow]

7 hours ago, busfan2847 said:

On the Pace front page in the following section (scroll down on the page):

"Pace Eliminating Three Poorly Performing Services

Several routes approved for elimination as part of the Pace 2019 budget will take their last trips this summer. Pace's 2019 budget included the elimination of 12 poorly performing services in total and the reallocation $1.2 million into a $1.7 million service enhancement effort that will reduce overcrowding, improve on-time performance, and support the launch of the Pulse Milwaukee Line, which is expected this fall.

On August 9, Pace Routes 304 and 326 will take their last trips.

Service enhancements on nearby Routes 330 and 331 will help compensate for the elimination of these two routes. Pace has worked to encourage ridership on these routes, but they have not performed to the agency's standards. As a responsible steward of taxpayer dollars, Pace can no longer support these routes which do not generate the necessary fare revenue.

Service has already been cut on several other routes this year. Routes 362, 532, 661, 809 and 824 were eliminated, and Saturday service was eliminated on Routes 209, 348, 540, 504 and 546."

My advice is to watch the service alerts. The fall changers won’t likely be posted for another week-plus. 

[TaylorTank1229]

New alerts for routes 330 & 331 have been posted on the site. Link below if you wish to view the full service change notice that will be implemented on August 11th & 12th:

•All 330 trips will begin to serve the Rosemont CTA Blue Line Station along its route.

•Certainly weekday trips for 331 will have buses serving to and from the La Grange Road Metra/Amtrak Station.

http://pacebus.com/sub/schedules/route_notice_detail.asp?Notice_ID=1619

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, TaylorTank1229 said:

New alerts for routes 330 & 331 have been posted on the site. Link below if you wish to view the full service change notice that will be implemented on August 11th & 12th:

•All 330 trips will begin to serve the Rosemont CTA Blue Line Station along its route.

•Certainly weekday trips for 331 will have buses serving to and from the La Grange Road Metra/Amtrak Station.

http://pacebus.com/sub/schedules/route_notice_detail.asp?Notice_ID=1619

With respect to the 330, this routing change makes no sense.  As I stated before, the 303 covers Irving Park between 25th and River Rd and River Rd between Irving Pk and Rosemont CTA.  The 326 only ran weekday rush periods.  Also, the 332 provides service along Manheim from Seymour to Lawrence, Lawrence from Manheim to River Rd and River Rd from Lawrence to the Rosemont CTA,.  The portion of the 326 from 25th Ave//Lawrence to Rosemont CTA was part of the 326.

I guess one unintended benefit is passengers at the Kiss N Fly can now ride to Rosemont CTA and avoid the $5 fare from O'Hare as well as the ATS/Shuttle bus.  Outside of that,  route duplication is in full effect.

With respect to the 331, I'm not sure that this is a good idea.   From past observations,  the 304 wasn't brimming with riders from LaGrange Metra.  Besides that,  doesn't the 302 cover that area?

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, TaylorTank1229 said:

New alerts for routes 330 & 331 have been posted on the site. Link below if you wish to view the full service change notice that will be implemented on August 11th & 12th:

•All 330 trips will begin to serve the Rosemont CTA Blue Line Station along its route.

•Certainly weekday trips for 331 will have buses serving to and from the La Grange Road Metra/Amtrak Station.

http://pacebus.com/sub/schedules/route_notice_detail.asp?Notice_ID=1619

Looking at the 330 map, it looks like the 332 is being rerouted to run 25th Ave between Irving Pk and Lawrence.  If that's the case,  then there is no reason to reroute the 330 since the suburban portion of the 326 is now completely covered by the 303 and 332.

Plus there's mad traffic on I 190 between the airport and the Kennedy. 

[MetroShadow]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

With respect to the 330, this routing change makes no sense.  As I stated before, the 303 covers Irving Park between 25th and River Rd and River Rd between Irving Pk and Rosemont CTA.  The 326 only ran weekday rush periods.  Also, the 332 provides service along Manheim from Seymour to Lawrence, Lawrence from Manheim to River Rd and River Rd from Lawrence to the Rosemont CTA,.  The portion of the 326 from 25th Ave//Lawrence to Rosemont CTA was part of the 326.

I guess one unintended benefit is passengers at the Kiss N Fly can now ride to Rosemont CTA and avoid the $5 fare from O'Hare as well as the ATS/Shuttle bus.  Outside of that,  route duplication is in full effect.

With respect to the 331, I'm not sure that this is a good idea.   From past observations,  the 304 wasn't brimming with riders from LaGrange Metra.  Besides that,  doesn't the 302 cover that area?

330 and 303 are two different markets - duplication doesn't apply in this case, especially along Balmoral. Balmoral isn't served outside of the Shuttle; Important connections are available at Rosemont. 326 provided an important link back when that segment was added (2013?) 332 is a different market in its own right. 

331 takes the west end of the 304 and creates a deviation at 60' frequencies. This protects any losses with 304 since 331 had better ridership and a newer market (LaGrange - Lyons - Brookfield/Riverside HS). 302 trips keep going east to Cicero.

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

Looking at the 330 map, it looks like the 332 is being rerouted to run 25th Ave between Irving Pk and Lawrence.  If that's the case,  then there is no reason to reroute the 330 since the suburban portion of the 326 is now completely covered by the 303 and 332.

Plus there's mad traffic on I 190 between the airport and the Kennedy. 

Duplication is more of an issue for longer stretches of road. To get to separate markets on shorter lengths isn't the case (see Higgins and 223/600's, 209/234)...332 covers 25th on parts and is still not a concern. Think about your destination, not so much the segment.

I-190 is gonna I-190 regardless.

[west towns]

it should be better connecting 330  from blue line.  avoids going into ohare taking people mover/shuttle to rental facility to board 330.

 

 

 

[NewFlyerMCI]

Would it not be better for the 330 to take Higgins to the KNF? It would serve another commercial corridor and might actually be faster. Also, i'd like to see the 250 & 330 move to the Rental Lot soon, since there's now a turnaround at O'Hare Transfer station and the ATS will be operational soon enough

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, MetroShadow said:

330 and 303 are two different markets - duplication doesn't apply in this case, especially along Balmoral. Balmoral isn't served outside of the Shuttle; Important connections are available at Rosemont. 326 provided an important link back when that segment was added (2013?) 332 is a different market in its own right. 

331 takes the west end of the 304 and creates a deviation at 60' frequencies. This protects any losses with 304 since 331 had better ridership and a newer market (LaGrange - Lyons - Brookfield/Riverside HS). 302 trips keep going east to Cicero.

Duplication is more of an issue for longer stretches of road. To get to separate markets on shorter lengths isn't the case (see Higgins and 223/600's, 209/234)...332 covers 25th on parts and is still not a concern. Think about your destination, not so much the segment.

I-190 is gonna I-190 regardless.

Currently the 326 only has 2 a.m. and 2 p.m. trips serving the Balmoral corridor.  I think it's better to route either the 303 or 332, since those routes could easily take those passengers to and from Rosemont CTA.   The 330 market is generally airport and nearby Franklin Park oriented as opposed to Rosemont CTA.   The other 2 routes act both as feeders to Rosemont CTA  and reverse commute routes to nearby Rosemont  and Schiller Park, and in the case of 332, the O'Hare cargo area.

 

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

Currently the 326 only has 2 a.m. and 2 p.m. trips serving the Balmoral corridor.  I think it's better to route either the 303 or 332, since those routes could easily take those passengers to and from Rosemont CTA.   The 330 market is generally airport and nearby Franklin Park oriented as opposed to Rosemont CTA.   The other 2 routes act both as feeders to Rosemont CTA  and reverse commute routes to nearby Rosemont  and Schiller Park, and in the case of 332, the O'Hare cargo area.

 

It's not about connecting people along that corridor to Rosemont, but rather about connecting existing 330 passengers to that corridor and facilitating connections at Rosemont. For instance, if you live along/take the 330, the only way to get there right out is to transfer along Mannheim (which is nowhere I want to wait for a bus) to the 332, which isn't that frequent compared to the 330 What this does is provide 330 passengers heading north consistent access to jobs along Balmoral & River, a connection to the Blue Line and access north of Kennedy, which you'd previously only be able to do with about 2-3 transfers. If I were at Mannheim & Grand, it might actually be more feasible to take 330 to Rosemont and take the Blue line down, as opposed to the 319 to the 74. Instead of only having the 250 to take you north & west, you'd now have more options to Des Plaines, Schaumburg & Elgin and vice versa.

[west towns]

im sure 250 and 250 will move across the street to rental car facility once train is extended

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

It's not about connecting people along that corridor to Rosemont, but rather about connecting existing 330 passengers to that corridor and facilitating connections at Rosemont. For instance, if you live along/take the 330, the only way to get there right out is to transfer along Mannheim (which is nowhere I want to wait for a bus) to the 332, which isn't that frequent compared to the 330 What this does is provide 330 passengers heading north consistent access to jobs along Balmoral & River, a connection to the Blue Line and access north of Kennedy, which you'd previously only be able to do with about 2-3 transfers. If I were at Mannheim & Grand, it might actually be more feasible to take 330 to Rosemont and take the Blue line down, as opposed to the 319 to the 74. Instead of only having the 250 to take you north & west, you'd now have more options to Des Plaines, Schaumburg & Elgin and vice versa.

I disagree and Pace proves it.  The primary reason for the reroute is the elimination of the 326 which doesn't serve Manheim in any way, shape, form, or fashion.  If the 326 stayed, this reroute never happens.  

[NewFlyerMCI]

11 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I disagree and Pace proves it.  The primary reason for the reroute is the elimination of the 326 which doesn't serve Manheim in any way, shape, form, or fashion.  If the 326 stayed, this reroute never happens.  

I see them as independent changes. Even if it was motivated by the 326 being cut, it doesn't negate the reasons I laid out that speak to the benefits of this route change. Between the 303 & 332, service along River Rd is frequent enough. Besides, the 330 isn't replacing any section of the 326. If this were truly in response to the 326 being cancelled, wouldn't the 330 replace the section from 25th & Irving Park to Rosemont? Instead the only section the 330 is covering is that 10 minute walk btwn Balmoral & River that's covered by at least 3 other regular routes (303, 332, 811) and 1 express route (895)

[Tcmetro]

The Rosemont stop on the 330 will help build connections between the west and northwest suburban lines. Airport workers are able to get regular fares on the Blue Line, so the fare increase amounts to a quarter for the L-bus transfer. 

I think Pace should look into running the 250 or the Dempster Pulse line to Rosemont Blue Line for a better connection to Desk Plaines. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

6 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

I think Pace should look into running the 250 or the Dempster Pulse line to Rosemont Blue Line for a better connection to Desk Plaines. 

Probably also worthwhile to consider increased service on the 230

[MetroShadow]

9 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

The Rosemont stop on the 330 will help build connections between the west and northwest suburban lines. Airport workers are able to get regular fares on the Blue Line, so the fare increase amounts to a quarter for the L-bus transfer. 

I think Pace should look into running the 250 or the Dempster Pulse line to Rosemont Blue Line for a better connection to Desk Plaines. 

 

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Probably also worthwhile to consider increased service on the 230

Neither idea works. 230 is one of those connector routes whose sole purpose to connecting mount prospect with DP and Rosemont; 250/Pulse D can make connections at DP without going out of the way back to Rosemont.

[chicagocubs6323]

11 minutes ago, MetroShadow said:

 

Neither idea works. 230 is one of those connector routes whose sole purpose to connecting mount prospect with DP and Rosemont; 250/Pulse D can make connections at DP without going out of the way back to Rosemont.

To add to that, one can always transfer at the Des Plaines Metra from 250 and take whatever route takes you to Rosemont

[artthouwill]

11 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I see them as independent changes. Even if it was motivated by the 326 being cut, it doesn't negate the reasons I laid out that speak to the benefits of this route change. Between the 303 & 332, service along River Rd is frequent enough. Besides, the 330 isn't replacing any section of the 326. If this were truly in response to the 326 being cancelled, wouldn't the 330 replace the section from 25th & Irving Park to Rosemont? Instead the only section the 330 is covering is that 10 minute walk btwn Balmoral & River that's covered by at least 3 other regular routes (303, 332, 811) and 1 express route (895)

I can see your POV.  The first part of Pace's statement saying," Due to the discontinuation of the 326..." was the basis of my statement.   However,  it also said, "and to improve regional connectivity..." which speaks to your statement  provides an opportunity for possible improvements.   For passengers who ride the NB 330 and transfer to the NB 332, this eliminates the need to  transfer if their destination is Balmoral or Rosemont CTA.   I'm surprised Pace said nothing about a 332 reroute along 25th Ave. Not only does the new 330 map show the 332 operating via 25th Ave and Lawrence, it appears that the 332 is losing the Seymour and Manheim portion of its route.  That's understandable because the 330 can now take those passengers to Risemont CTA.

One downside is when the Irving Park CN viaduct floods, those east of that viaduct will no longer have alternate service to get to Rosemont CTA.  At least until August 9th, those passengers could walk to River Rd and get the 326.  You know that viaduct floods often and easily when there's a flood route on the maps.

[Pace831]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

 I'm surprised Pace said nothing about a 332 reroute along 25th Ave. Not only does the new 330 map show the 332 operating via 25th Ave and Lawrence, it appears that the 332 is losing the Seymour and Manheim portion of its route.

If 332 were changing, there would be a passenger notice for it. The new 330 map isn't different from the current one with respect to 332, as it doesn't specifically say that 332 operates on 25th, but instead doesn't show that Lawrence continues from there to Mannheim. Similarly, neither map shows Seymour Avenue.

[artthouwill]

20 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

If 332 were changing, there would be a passenger notice for it. The new 330 map isn't different from the current one with respect to 332, as it doesn't specifically say that 332 operates on 25th, but instead doesn't show that Lawrence continues from there to Mannheim. Similarly, neither map shows Seymour Avenue.

Look at the current 330 map and then look at the new 330 map and you'll see the difference.  Also the current 332 map does show Seymour as the route passes Itving Pk and proceeds west SOUTH of Irving Pk (Seymour).  Also on the new 330 map you see the 332 cross Manheim at Irving Pk, then proceed north on 25th Ave, then east on Lawrence.   332 is marked clearly both on Irving Park and Lawrence.  Look specifically at time point 9, which is Irving Park and Manheim. 

[Pace831]

1 minute ago, artthouwill said:

Look at the current 330 map and then look at the new 330 map and you'll see the difference.  Also the current 332 map does show Seymour as the route passes Itving Pk and proceeds west SOUTH of Irving Pk (Seymour).  Also on the new 330 map you see the 332 cross Manheim at Irving Pk, then proceed north on 25th Ave, then east on Lawrence.   332 is marked clearly both on Irving Park and Lawrence. 

The 330 map hasn't changed its depiction of 332, which was the basis for your previous comment.

As I said, if 332 were changing, there would be a passenger notice.

[artthouwill]

6 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

The 330 map hasn't changed its depiction of 332, which was the basis for your previous comment.

As I said, if 332 were changing, there would be a passenger notice.

So you are saying that both 330 maps are incorrect as it pertains to the 332?

[Pace831]

Just now, artthouwill said:

So you are saying that the new 330 man is incorrect as it pertains to the 332?

Yes, and so is the old one. They both show 332 on Irving Park rather than Seymour. They also don't show the segment of Lawrence Avenue between Mannheim and 25th. There is a notation that 332 runs on Lawrence, which seems to be giving you the impression that 332 will turn south on 25th, even though the map doesn't directly say so.

[artthouwill]

1 minute ago, Pace831 said:

Yes, and so is the old one. They both show 332 on Irving Park rather than Seymour. They also don't show the segment of Lawrence Avenue between Mannheim and 25th. There is a notation that 332 runs on Lawrence, which seems to be giving you the impression that 332 will turn south on 25th, even though the map doesn't directly say so.

With the 330 change,  it might make sense to run the 332 via 25th Ave to completely cover the discontinued 326.  I guess I will check it out next month.