CTA Service Adjustments

[Busjack]

If we're talking about cutting parallel bus service, why not the #9 definitely at 95th, and maybe some of the other stops nearby. The Red Line can transport the passengers to/from their destinations. What's fair is fair, Emanuel and Claypool.

Not if they are going to shut it down.

[chgofan78]

4. 111 King/111th and 115 Pullman/115. Just when I made a point about eliminating duplicity, they turn around and duplicate service. The 353 covers the King Drive portion between 95th/Red Line and 111th/ Michigan already so what is the point of this route? The 115 route seems okay, but the 111 King Drive seems a waste.

This is so true. This will be interesting to see how it pans out. I wonder what the routing be. I can see Pace maybe rerouting the #353 onto the Bishop Ford Freeway via 95th and Stony Island and nonstop from the 95th Red Line Station to 130th and Indiana and resuming its normal route from there, but that adds a small amount of mileage to the route. On the other hand, it wouldn't change the travel time by much providing the expressway is not congested and the buses don't get stuck at too many lights along 95th Street.

[Busjack]

....

This is so true. This will be interesting to see how it pans out. I wonder what the routing be. I can see Pace maybe rerouting the #353 onto the Bishop Ford Freeway via 95th and Stony Island and nonstop from the 95th Red Line Station to 130th and Indiana and resuming its normal route from there, but that adds a small amount of mileage to the route. On the other hand, it wouldn't change the travel time by much providing the expressway is not congested and the buses don't get stuck at too many lights along 95th Street.

You basically can't do that, or at least Pace won't. Since there isn't a southbound ramp at 95th, it would have to travel via 95th and Stony Island to get on south of 103rd. This was pointed out in the proposed restructuring of 355, which was, originally, to get it to 95th, go to the Kensington ME station at 115th, but the riders said they weren't interested, and the route now terminates at the South Shore.

Similarly, Pace had 352 variants getting on I-57 at Halsted and 99th, but dropped them.

The real question is why, even though the Riverdale loop is in Riverdale, the only point of the Pace 353 Riverdale trips is to serve S. King Dr. in the city.

If there is any agreement, I'm sure it was with regard to swapping Altgeld Gardens (which was South Suburban Safeway) with 138-Leyden (which was the original terminal of CTA 34).

I'm sure that the real motivation for splitting 111 and 115 is that having to go around that loop to get a direct ride to 95th is a pain.*

______

*Since it appears that the "southbound" trip turns around at 111th & Corliss instead of heading back to 95th (schedule).

[artthouwill]

You basically can't do that, or at least Pace won't. Since there isn't a southbound ramp at 95th, it would have to travel via 95th and Stony Island to get on south of 103rd. This was pointed out in the proposed restructuring of 355, which was, originally, to get it to 95th, go to the Kensington ME station at 115th, but the riders said they weren't interested, and the route now terminates at the South Shore.

Similarly, Pace had 352 variants getting on I-57 at Halsted and 99th, but dropped them.

The real question is why, even though the Riverdale loop is in Riverdale, the only point of the Pace 355 Riverdale trips is to serve S. King Dr. in the city.

If there is any agreement, I'm sure it was with regard to swapping Altgeld Gardens (which was South Suburban Safeway) with 138-Leyden (which was the original terminal of CTA 34).

I'm sure that the real motivation for splitting 111 and 115 is that having to go around that loop to get a direct ride to 95th is a pain.

I don't think there is enough ridership along 111th to justify this service. After all, for most people, 115th is 1/2 mile to the south. Also there is direct service to 95th along Michigan and Halsted Sts. I think Pace will take a wait and see approach as far as the new 111 affecting ridership along King Drive, as I assume there will be no schedule coordination. The 353 runs every 15 minutes peak and 30 minutes off peak. It would be halfway smart if CTA ran its route every 15 minutes, scheduling its route 7.5 minutes apart from Pace. The other thing Pace might do rather than adjust the route is to implement its half-mile bus stop spacing along the King Drive portion where it is currently a quarter-mile, or shift the routing to Michigan Ave with the half-mile spacing. The 353 will not become an expressway route.

I suppose this is somewhat temporary until CTA can ever get the Red Line Extension to 130th going.

With the high frequency of service along Michigan, why not a 111 Michigan/111th if the intent is to provide direct service along 111th? I think it is more of an attempt to get some revenue away from Pace which has 353 as one of its highest ridership routes. It is more about pushing Pace out of its territory than anything.

[artthouwill]

I wonder with the "tweaking" of service how much garage shifting will occur. For instance with the #1 being shortened to 35th, it seems that K would be ripe to take over that route using equipment from the 129. K is already a natural fit for the 37. NP could take over the 148 with former 144 equipment. The question is will K run trips on the 146? If 77th loses the #1, will those buses, along with the buses from 49A shift to 79th? Would the 28 locals that 103rd lose be shifted to the #2, displacing 77ths #2 buses?

[New Flyer]

I wonder with the "tweaking" of service how much garage shifting will occur. For instance with the #1 being shortened to 35th, it seems that K would be ripe to take over that route using equipment from the 129. K is already a natural fit for the 37. NP could take over the 148 with former 144 equipment. The question is will K run trips on the 146? If 77th loses the #1, will those buses, along with the buses from 49A shift to 79th? Would the 28 locals that 103rd lose be shifted to the #2, displacing 77ths #2 buses?

77th only uses 1 bus on the 49A

[ChicagoNova]

I think CTA forgot about the 108 Halsted/95th route which runs between 95th Red Line Station and Halsted/127th, the same segment also served by Pace Bus #352.

[ChicagoNova]

If you want my honest opinion regarding #1 Indiana/Hyde Park, I think CTA might as well just discontinue the entire route. I also noticed that when they eliminated trips between Hyde Park/Drexel and 63rd/Stony Island, the route name remained unchanged.

[See Tea Eh]

Since nobody else has asked, I might as well get the question out of the way:

Will these changes possibly result in some Flxibles returning to service?

(And no, I am not really wondering about that)

[mkohut]

I'm surprise 96 Lunt didn't get cut.

[CURRENTZ_09]

I think these routes that are being restructured because of the overlapping of some routes and that CTA president Claypool and Mayor Rahm uses them and didn't feel the need to be a victim of CTA delays and got impatient. This is just my suggestion

[Busjack]

I think these routes that are being restructured because of the overlapping of some routes and that CTA president Claypool and Mayor Rahm uses them and didn't feel the need to be a victim of CTA delays and got impatient. This is just my suggestion

There was the report that both rode the Brown Line, so to the extent of that, you might be onto something. Also, both apparently live east enough that they don't need to take the Lincoln bus (according to whitepages.com, Forrest lives off 4230 N. Clark, and Rahm's address on the same block of North Hermitage was well publicized with regard to the court case).

Update: Now all you have to do is figure out who with clout lives on 111th between Corliss and Vincennes. I doubt anybody, though. ;)

[BUSANGEL#1]

4. 111 King/111th and 115 Pullman/115. Just when I made a point about eliminating duplicity, they turn around and duplicate service. The 353 covers the King Drive portion between 95th/Red Line and 111th/ Michigan already so what is the point of this route? The 115 route seems okay, but the 111 King Drive seems a waste.

This is so true. This will be interesting to see how it pans out. I wonder what the routing be. I can see Pace maybe rerouting the #353 onto the Bishop Ford Freeway via 95th and Stony Island and nonstop from the 95th Red Line Station to 130th and Indiana and resuming its normal route from there, but that adds a small amount of mileage to the route. On the other hand, it wouldn't change the travel time by much providing the expressway is not congested and the buses don't get stuck at too many lights along 95th Street.

Pace already agreed to eliminate service on King Drive if CTA takes over.It will be interesting to see if South Michigan riders north of 111th, will start using King Drive since the CTA switch, which means all passes will be accepted.

[BUSANGEL#1]

I don't think there is enough ridership along 111th to justify this service. After all, for most people, 115th is 1/2 mile to the south. Also there is direct service to 95th along Michigan and Halsted Sts. I think Pace will take a wait and see approach as far as the new 111 affecting ridership along King Drive, as I assume there will be no schedule coordination. The 353 runs every 15 minutes peak and 30 minutes off peak. It would be halfway smart if CTA ran its route every 15 minutes, scheduling its route 7.5 minutes apart from Pace. The other thing Pace might do rather than adjust the route is to implement its half-mile bus stop spacing along the King Drive portion where it is currently a quarter-mile, or shift the routing to Michigan Ave with the half-mile spacing. The 353 will not become an expressway route.

I suppose this is somewhat temporary until CTA can ever get the Red Line Extension to 130th going.

With the high frequency of service along Michigan, why not a 111 Michigan/111th if the intent is to provide direct service along 111th? I think it is more of an attempt to get some revenue away from Pace which has 353 as one of its highest ridership routes. It is more about pushing Pace out of its territory than anything.

The 111/115 split wasn't all about ridership but about providing direct service to the Red Line on a heavily transit dependent street. Since King Drive is close to Michigan there will be a ridership switch because King Drive is a faster street than Michigan.

[BUSANGEL#1]

I think CTA forgot about the 108 Halsted/95th route which runs between 95th Red Line Station and Halsted/127th, the same segment also served by Pace Bus #352.

108 was kept safe because Pace agreed in 2010 to change their spacing to every half-mile. So 108 is still needed locally.

[Busjack]

Pace already agreed to eliminate service on King Drive if CTA takes over.It will be interesting to see if South Michigan riders north of 111th, will start using King Drive since the CTA switch, which means all passes will be accepted.

How do you know that? Give us a source.

[CURRENTZ_09]

There was the report that both rode the Brown Line, so to the extent of that, you might be onto something. Also, both apparently live east enough that they don't need to take the Lincoln bus (according to whitepages.com, Forrest lives off 4230 N. Clark, and Rahm's address on the same block of North Hermitage was well publicized with regard to the court case).

Update: Now all you have to do is figure out who with clout lives on 111th between Corliss and Vincennes. I doubt anybody, though.

Possibly a CTA board member. They do have to use the CTA once a month since Claypool and Friends found out that sone board members don't even touch the CTA. In fact, why won't Claypool ride the Red Line South once a month between now and May 2013 to give an indepth commuter analysis on how the Red Line South is important to everyday commuters. Maybe then, he can be alot more understanding to the challenges these commuters have. If you can complain about waiting at Sedgwick for a few minutes and implement changes, why not do the same on the other end of town and engage in discussion on how to make the 5 month transition smoother and continue your commute during the rehab to be more aware of the changes that are happening to your transit authority. You want to be president, then be one that is engaged to customers concerns (but understand that not all recommendations can be held accountable, your only one president). That is all for now.

[jajuan]

Emanuel Defends CTA Changes: Article actually has him using the word Pace. I don't believe it.

Which doesn't leave me impressed since we each have been able to call off routes or route portions that more qualify as "low ridership" and "parallels of service" than what the CTA has currently announced. Busjack mentioned aldermanic pressure blocked them from even thinking of 55A and 55N. But I also just happened to remember that the Midway routes that operate west of that airport also happen to be in Lipinski territory.

[jajuan]

Possibly a CTA board member. They do have to use the CTA once a month since Claypool and Friends found out that sone board members don't even touch the CTA. In fact, why won't Claypool ride the Red Line South once a month between now and May 2013 to give an indepth commuter analysis on how the Red Line South is important to everyday commuters. Maybe then, he can be alot more understanding to the challenges these commuters have. If you can complain about waiting at Sedgwick for a few minutes and implement changes, why not do the same on the other end of town and engage in discussion on how to make the 5 month transition smoother and continue your commute during the rehab to be more aware of the changes that are happening to your transit authority. You want to be president, then be one that is engaged to customers concerns (but understand that not all recommendations can be held accountable, your only one president). That is all for now.

Now this is a comment with which I can agree with you. And I still find it funny that the station supervisor gets a reprimand for trying to please the boss after folks at that station decided to complain about the trains no longer keeping the doors open when they didn't reach the platform in time. As for those making the criticism that the newer form of route 111 encroaches on the 353 or that they're forgetting the 108 because of the 352, I remind you that that is still within the boundaries of the city limits north of 127th and 130 streets depending on where you are on that end of the city. So that would technically make it "CTA territory" for those who are big on the turf war games between the service boards and decry CTA should stick to the city when it comes to its buses and let Pace handle the suburbs. Although making the acknowlegment that 352 and 353 are high ridership routes for Pace points out my counterpoint I've been making throughout that that debate is not always so cut and dry when it comes to the passengers of both boards who cross commute between city and burbs and want that ride to be as smooth as possible.

[artthouwill]

Now this is a comment with which I can agree with you. And I still find it funny that the station supervisor gets a reprimand for trying to please the boss after folks at that station decided to complain about the trains no longer keeping the doors open when they didn't reach the platform in time. As for those making the criticism that the newer form of route 111 encroaches on the 353 or that they're forgetting the 108 because of the 352, I remind you that that is still within the boundaries of the city limits north of 127th and 130 streets depending on where you are on that end of the city. So that would technically make it "CTA territory" for those who are big on the turf war games between the service boards and decry CTA should stick to the city when it comes to its buses and let Pace handle the suburbs. Although making the acknowlegment that 352 and 353 are high ridership routes for Pace points out my counterpoint I've been making throughout that that debate is not always so cut and dry when it comes to the passengers of both boards who cross commute between city and burbs and want that ride to be as smooth as possible.

My criticism stems from the fact that CTA is claiming coordination with Pace and is trying to eliminate duplicity in services, but the 111 running along King Drive IS duplicity. That is hypocrisy.

[jajuan]

My criticism stems from the fact that CTA is claiming coordination with Pace and is trying to eliminate duplicity in services, but the 111 running along King Drive IS duplicity. That is hypocrisy.

But even if they did route it exactly along the 353 as far a King Drive is concerned it's Pace in this case that has that route paralleling the CTA within the city limits even without the CTA running the 111 along King Drive. It doesn't fly to criticize CTA to route its buses through the suburbs where it wasn't already routed previous then turn around criticism for a roting that is by definition INSIDE the cith just because the suburban service has extended a short distance into the city to connect with the el. But you're right that they have broken their premise for the proposed changes and it's with more than just this one route. How exactly does 145 for example qualify as low ridership as the news articles report when in the rush periods this route has buses packed to the gills? The move to make would be to fold 148 back into 145 and just route the express portion to Irving Park in the peak direction during rush hour with the buses routed to/from Belmont off the Drive in that direction as short runs like now if need be. The 11 doesn't even qualify. I rode it home from Ashland late Friday morning and the bus was about half full which is a decent haul for any route in off peak hours.

[See Tea Eh]

I don't get all the whining about the 111 moving over to King Drive.

Realistically, there are three ways the bus could get from 95th to 111th, either via Michigan, via King Drive, or via Cottage Grove. All three options will duplicate existing service somehow or another.

[Busjack]

My criticism stems from the fact that CTA is claiming coordination with Pace and is trying to eliminate duplicity in services, but the 111 running along King Drive IS duplicity. That is hypocrisy.

On the surface, it appears so.

However, I point out again, all they have given us is a list of routes, one of which is 111 111-King Dr., without any map. 111 now goes NB on King Dr. between 115th and 111th. So, like on LSD, we won't know what they'll do until later.

That's basically why I gave BusAngel 2 for 3, but he hasn't given any substance to the assertion I challenged in light of the exchange with RJL. Emanuel may have used the word "Pace," but there is still no evidence that anyone talked with Pace, as indicated by, for instance, 108 not being theoretically different from 56A (except in one manner I won't mention).

I'll make essentially the same comment to jajuan, but we went over 145 a couple of days ago. I also mentioned what I would do with 353 Riverdale trips yesterday, but I didn't say that Pace was going to do it.

[jajuan]

On the surface, it appears so.

However, I point out again, all they have given us is a list of routes, one of which is 111 111-King Dr., without any map. 111 now goes NB on King Dr. between 115th and 111th. So, like on LSD, we won't know what they'll do until later.

That's basically why I gave BusAngel 2 for 3, but he hasn't given any substance to the assertion I challenged in light of the exchange with RJL. Emanuel may have used the word "Pace," but there is still no evidence that anyone talked with Pace, as indicated by, for instance, 108 not being theoretically different from 56A (except in one manner I won't mention).

I'll make essentially the same comment to jajuan, but we went over 145 a couple of days ago. I also mentioned what I would do with 353 Riverdale trips yesterday, but I didn't say that Pace was going to do it.

Yes you did and I think I agreed with you that if it's a matter of discontinuing the use of two route numbers for what is essentially the same service then fine go for it. I just took it a step further and said flip it and instead fold 148 back into 145 instead the way that they are proposing it since it's 145 that's the everyday route while 148 is rush hour-peak direction only service. Sure they have add service into 148, but 148 is not on the list of 40 plus routes marked for service expansion which would suggest they're not planning on service to Wilson/Ravenswood outside of rush hour which is not a smart move. As I said they could just make the 148 routing a part of the 145 rush hour schedule. And if they don't want buses close to empty outside of rush hour, there's nothing written in stone that says mostly to all artics have to be used in the off peak hours. The 144 I'm not as annoyed about because 146 is the everyday service in this case and being kept and the add service to 146 could very well be defined as use the 144 express zone, equipment, and times as part of the 146 schedule.

[Busjack]

Yes you did and I think I agreed with you that if it's a matter of discontinuing the use of two route numbers for what is essentially the same service then fine go for it. I just took it a step further and said flip it and instead fold 148 back into 145 instead the way that they are proposing it since it's 145 that's the everyday route while 148 is rush hour-peak direction only service....

I still think it is undoing placating the elderly who were complaining about losing "half their buses" because only 146 ran south of Irving Park (or Mark Grace). The theory then must have been just relabel some 146s as 145s and increase the frequency a bit.

Getting a bit off topic, if you want to talk number creep, how about Jeffery going from 5/5A to 5/6 to 6 to 14/15? No substantive change the first time, was the last time. For that matter, 153 became "145 Local" (and I believe there was also a "146 Local") until all became full time express. Of course, part of 153 was incorporated into 151.

As far as Wilson not needing all that service, I can see that (there is no longer 156 Wilson-LaSalle), but the number of bus routes was cited as a reason for redoing Wilson station, although I think that it being an obsolete dump with an incomprehensible track pattern from when the line ended there is a sufficient reason in itself.