South Side Green Line Ashland/63rd reconstruction

[Busjack]

No {Purple Express During Brown Line Bridge Reroute

See Tea Eh, on 07 Mar 2013 - 11:55, said

...

I'm under the impression that it's apparently not a simple thing to reprogram the OCU, though it absolutely must be possible (they are computers, and computers can be reprogrammed, it's just a matter of the difficulty in doing so).

... Technically speaking, there's no reason the system couldn't be programmed to have every color and every station as a destination. ...

I don't know why they didn't do this, since it seems it would be worth it in many cases (any rail disruption).

Memory limits would limit the number of signs.

However, if there is something limiting taking out one sign and substituting another, that's strange. For instance, the green 63-Ashland sign won't be needed for Green Line trains, or more extreme the Red 95th sign won't be needed at all.

Since the OCU or TOTS or however the operator's console is denominated also has to run the various versions of the audio announcements, it is hard to believe that CTA would leave them disabled for 5 months. At a minimum, since the ones in the 5000s are gps controlled, if a new variation for the Red Line were not programmed in before an operator punches in the code, once the train goes on the Green, the gps won't recognize it, just like BusTracker doesn't recognize detoured buses. Again, CTA might let that go for a couple of weeks due to Wells, but five months would be a mess.

I'll only concede that if the signs are graphics files, rather than generated on the fly like the orange LED ones are, the graphics files need to be edited.

[BusHunter]

The Green Cottage Grove to Red Ashland/63 transfer at Garfield is on the same platform. A Roosevelt-Green to Red transfer would be from elevated to subway. Which is easier????

Green signs unless they spend an awful lot of money toput in new the 5000s' roll signs. Remember, they are not programmable as they are.

Waiting for the next train may be easier but takes twice as long to do. Also if one transfers on the loop they may be unaware of the free transfer at State/Lake or Library - State/Van Buren. As far as the signs, at least they have a green loop sign. If the signs are not programmable why didn't they make a black Roosevelt sign like the O' Hare signs? They could have saved their hide twice with the wells street project and this one. Also one might inquire what they will do when the 130th extension opens or a possible Purple line extension as favored by you, buy all new signs!!

[nflyer22]

As an undergrad in computer engineering, allow me to shed some light on the situation with my thoughts.

Like any picture stored on a computer, the LED signs are a 2D array of pixels (in our case, LEDs). Each pixel is "set" a certain value, and that value determines what color or hue that particular pixel should be. The whole combination of pixels gives us the overall picture we see. The matrix of values of pixels is then stored as a whole (i.e. your typical .jpg, .bmp, etc. image file) for simplicity reasons (it's much easier to pull up one file rather than several million files! ).¹

From this, I believe that when a run number is entered, and the operator chooses a destination, the computer unit pulls up a single file, of which that file tells what sign is put up. With a wide assortment of destination signs for all lines, I have my doubts that memory is an issue.² (The New Flyers have their assortment of destinations for all the bus routes, although I have seen some Novas display blank signs when routes got shifted between garages.)

My notion that the CTA chose such signs are for reasons such as reroutes or extensions, when older destination signs become obsolete and new ones are needed. If the agency does not have smooth access to adjust these signs when necessary then what's the point in getting them at all?

Regardless I'm curious myself as to how this whole scenario will play out beginning next month.

______

¹ This is by all means not a complete description of image storage and processing. There are many other aspects of computer science that covers this area.

² I don't know the workings of the CTA and what goes on behind the scenes. This is just my pure assumption.

[Busjack]

.....The whole combination of pixels gives us the overall picture we see. The matrix of values of pixels is then stored as a whole (i.e. your typical .jpg, .bmp, etc. image file) for simplicity reasons (it's much easier to pull up one file rather than several million files! ).¹

From this, I believe that when a run number is entered, and the operator chooses a destination, the computer unit pulls up a single file, of which that file tells what sign is put up. With a wide assortment of destination signs for all lines, I have my doubts that memory is an issue.² ...

______

¹ This is by all means not a complete description of image storage and processing. There are many other aspects of computer science that covers this area.

² I don't know the workings of the CTA and what goes on behind the scenes. This is just my pure assumption.

Better phrased than I did, and you got to the point quicker.

One figures that the graphic sign portion consists of a bunch of bitmaps or more likely jpegs. Compare that to the files for the orange LED signs, which consist of text and font commands, and in the case of color ones, color commands. For the uninitiated, you can use the RTF editor here in your browser to save text, but sw has to use a paint program and upload his paper bus pictures.

Sort of the same thing with the audio system. They could have used a synthesizer, but instead they have Mr. CTA recording various small audio files, there are programs that put the messages together and sequence them, and the operator logs into [presumably the same] console to have them play on his or her route.

In both cases, the files have to be preloaded before the operator can sign in. Doesn't mean that shops can't modify the preload.

[See Tea Eh]

Why not either turn all of the normal Ashland Green Lines at Roosevelt, or loop all of the normally Ashland bound trains via the outer loop? I can deal with one or the other, but doing one sometimes and then the other at other times will cause confusion. .

I'm sure the preference would be to loop them at all times. However, during the AM rush, your typical Green line customer would be expecting the train to run straight through tower 18 as they head into downtown for work. Looping it around would take them longer to get to their normal stops.

In the PM rush, you don't have the same amount of inbound travel, so you inconvenience fewer people by looping around.

It makes more sense for trains to use the outer loop, because then all outer loop platforms from Adams/Wabash through to Clark/Lake will have the Harlem-bound trains. No need for a passenger to guess which side of the track for them to wait.

Operationally, it's much simpler to loop the train than to have it go into a middle track and have the operator change ends, but during the AM rush it's not practical, unless you decided to have the Green Line short-turns go opposite ways around the loop in the AM and PM rush, which would just drive some folks nuts.

[sw4400]

This should be a visual preview of the emergence from the State St. Subway as the Red Line heads towards Ashland/63rd starting in May.

[See Tea Eh]

As an undergrad in computer engineering, allow me to shed some light on the situation with my thoughts.

Like any picture stored on a computer, the LED signs are a 2D array of pixels (in our case, LEDs). Each pixel is "set" a certain value, and that value determines what color or hue that particular pixel should be. The whole combination of pixels gives us the overall picture we see. The matrix of values of pixels is then stored as a whole (i.e. your typical .jpg, .bmp, etc. image file) for simplicity reasons (it's much easier to pull up one file rather than several million files! ).¹

From this, I believe that when a run number is entered, and the operator chooses a destination, the computer unit pulls up a single file, of which that file tells what sign is put up. With a wide assortment of destination signs for all lines, I have my doubts that memory is an issue.² (The New Flyers have their assortment of destinations for all the bus routes, although I have seen some Novas display blank signs when routes got shifted between garages.)

My notion that the CTA chose such signs are for reasons such as reroutes or extensions, when older destination signs become obsolete and new ones are needed. If the agency does not have smooth access to adjust these signs when necessary then what's the point in getting them at all?

Regardless I'm curious myself as to how this whole scenario will play out beginning next month.

______

¹ This is by all means not a complete description of image storage and processing. There are many other aspects of computer science that covers this area.

² I don't know the workings of the CTA and what goes on behind the scenes. This is just my pure assumption.

Basically correct, to the extent that I know. As for electronic signs on buses, as far as I can tell, there has only been one current sign program, per sign type, across the entire system. So, even the old RTSs with the thumbwheels and flip-dots had one program that could display any sign for any route system-wide (your observation of Novas with blank signs is more likely a function of either the sign or the Clever Devices unit not working, or a function of a new destination sign reading needing to be programmed and they hadn't gotten the bus flashed with the new program yet).

With modern computers, I'd have a very difficult time believing that computer memory is the reason they didn't program a lot more signs than are in the system.

One possible theory (and I say this with the caveat that I really don't know what was going on in the spec/procurement process) is something that you encounter a lot in transportation, and particularly in agencies that don't get out very much and see how the rest of the world does things (and CTA fits in that category). You have a lot of old heads that are just used to things being done exactly as they always have been. They are comfortable with how things are, and see no reason to change, even if the world has passed them by. Sometimes, they are forced to change simply because the old ways can no longer be accommodated (the forced switch to AC motors because nobody would build them a DC motor being an example; other systems had been using AC for decades).

When they do have to adopt new technology, they do everything they can to get the new technology to mimic what they're used to. I won't go into details, but there was one case a few years ago where some folks at CTA were using a really old mainframe computer system to do certain functions. That computer system was beyond the end of its life, and there was no choice but to buy newer computers. Even though there was a vendor that provided off-the-shelf modern software with excellent tech support that would run on the newer machines to do these functions, this group was fully ready to have the IT department build software with the exact same, decades-old interface (including the black screen with white text) to run on the new system just so the folks using the computers wouldn't have to learn anything new. Fortunately, in that case, the plan to make new "old" software was scrapped and eventually, CTA went with a vendor with off-the-shelf technology after some prodding by higher ups (the decision to scrap the old software was made in the Huberman era, and for all the bad rap he gets on here, Huberman was the only CTA president in recent memory...and perhaps ever...that really encouraged outside-the-box thinking to improve things).

While that's not exactly the same thing as railcar destination signs, it does demonstrate the lack of outside-the-box thinking that can exist in an organization filled with folks that have been there, and nowhere else, for decades.

The fact that the electronic signs (and they're not roll signs, there are no rollers anywhere) look like the signs on older equipment isn't really an issue. I think it's fine that they replicated the look of the roll sign on the electronic sign. But the folks writing the specs for the signs probably came from the mentality that you just have a limited set of destination signs available, and changing the available sign readings isn't something you'd want to do too often anyway, so why bother with signs that can be easily updated? The system has gone decades with limited sign displays, and things have worked out, so why should we expect anything different from the new fleet?

That kind of mentality demonstrates a lack of visionary thinking. What they theoretically could have done was specified a small USB port somewhere in the cab and have a technician walk through with a USB stick, plug it in, and the signs for that car would be updated in seconds (that's essentially how bus destination signs get updated these days, and it takes about five seconds per bus). Getting even more advanced, they could have specified a wireless distribution system with wireless hubs in the railyard, pushing out updates overnight (that's how Clever Devices gets updated on the buses). That would require some investment in infrastructure, but would eliminate the need for a person to physically interact with each car unless there was some glitch.

All of these things would be possible if they had been included in the equipment specs. However, when folks operate within their own little worlds and don't get out to see how things could be done, they'd never even think of half the stuff that could be included and would definitely be useful.

Again, this is just one possible theory for why the fleet is so complicated to get sign updates. It is by no means the definite explanation for what went on behind the scenes.

[nflyer22]

...Sort of the same thing with the audio system. They could have used a synthesizer, but instead they have Mr. CTA recording various small audio files, there are programs that put the messages together and sequence them, and the operator logs into [presumably the same] console to have them play on his or her route.

In both cases, the files have to be preloaded before the operator can sign in. Doesn't mean that shops can't modify the preload.

Yes, I have heard that before. There were times when I was on a bus during rush hour, and the operator went through a series of menus and manually selected the "Please move to the rear" recording on the Clever Device.

There are other times for when the CTA has to announce date-specific events that affect service, such as the Chicago Marathon; Mr. CTA does sound very awkward on the bus pausing after every single tidbit of the date. While it does cause a giggle, it's simply a compilation of several prerecorded files that are on record. It'd be rough for him to drop by to Chicago several times a year just to make a new recording.

Basically correct, to the extent that I know. As for electronic signs on buses, as far as I can tell, there has only been one current sign program, per sign type, across the entire system. So, even the old RTSs with the thumbwheels and flip-dots had one program that could display any sign for any route system-wide (your observation of Novas with blank signs is more likely a function of either the sign or the Clever Devices unit not working, or a function of a new destination sign reading needing to be programmed and they hadn't gotten the bus flashed with the new program yet)....

I agree. Well said on your part.

I'd like to make a comment about the Novas: back when Archer was still running, when the 21, 50, 60, 171, 172, & 174 were acquired from other garages, those routes ran with blank signs in certain directions. For example, the 21 would display proper signage going EB toward McCormick Place, but display a void sign WB toward North Riverside. Eventually most of the signage problems were fixed, but my assumption is that these destinations weren't programmed into Archer's Novas initially since they never were served those routes up until that spring shuffle landed those routes at Archer.

I also wish to point out my misconception of the word program; what I meant say was a computer program, such as Firefox. I wasn't using it in the context of the signage program that the CTA rolls out on the buses every other pick or so.

[Busjack]

....

One possible theory (and I say this with the caveat that I really don't know what was going on in the spec/procurement process) is something that you encounter a lot in transportation, and particularly in agencies that don't get out very much and see how the rest of the world does things (and CTA fits in that category). You have a lot of old heads that are just used to things being done exactly as they always have been. They are comfortable with how things are, and see no reason to change, even if the world has passed them by. Sometimes, they are forced to change simply because the old ways can no longer be accommodated (the forced switch to AC motors because nobody would build them a DC motor being an example; other systems had been using AC for decades)....

That kind of mentality demonstrates a lack of visionary thinking. What they theoretically could have done was specified a small USB port somewhere in the cab and have a technician walk through with a USB stick, plug it in, and the signs for that car would be updated in seconds (that's essentially how bus destination signs get updated these days, and it takes about five seconds per bus). Getting even more advanced, they could have specified a wireless distribution system with wireless hubs in the railyard, pushing out updates overnight (that's how Clever Devices gets updated on the buses). That would require some investment in infrastructure, but would eliminate the need for a person to physically interact with each car unless there was some glitch....

Again well said.

As far as backwards, we have to remember that the original equipment for the 5000s was the orange LED signs; they hadn't figured out then that those could have been obtained at least in three color (RGB). These graphic signs were a change order because "color signs were not available then" (and I accept that the high definition ones weren't), but we really don't know what thought was at the time of the change order.

Given all the software that has to be loaded into a 5000 (not just this, but the ADA signs, diagnostics, motor control), loading through the LAN would make more sense. I thought they said something about the 5000s having a full time radio data connection. Maybe that was just for Tracker.

Your "behind" comment also reminds me that while the Chief Rail Engineer now recognizes such things as LCD maps, it appears that CTA is going full bore ahead with such things as the LED dots behind the mylar map on the 5000s. I don't expect CTA to retrofit the fist 225 or so cars, but as I said with the seats, it couldn't be that much more costly to install per the 7000 specs forward. Although the purchase of 900 mylar signs for this project is undoubtedly necessary for 2400s and 2600s, it certainly would be much easier to edit a new map for an LCD screen than have to change the map cards on the 5000s.

[Guest ctafan630]

The sign controlls on the 5000 appear to have three options: Normal, express and a 3rd I dont remember. Does anyone know what shows up on the destination signs when Express is selected?

[Sam92]

The sign controlls on the 5000 appear to have three options: Normal, express and a 3rd I dont remember. Does anyone know what shows up on the destination signs when Express is selected?

The same as the other cars, "Express" on a black background with the flashing marker lights. And maybe the 3rd option is "Not ln Service"?

[owine]

The 5000s do seem to know where they are going express to. I had a Red Line 5000 go express from Loyola to Wilson and in addition to the operator announcing Wilson would be the next stop, the automated announcement was that Wilson was next.

[sw4400]

I don't get express trains ever, but doesn't the canned CTA voice have some announcement in it's system that is used on all trains?

e.g: Attention Passengers, This train is now running Express to __________. __________ is next... doors open on the __________ at __________

__________ = Station name or side of the train doors open on

[Sam92]

I don't get express trains ever, but doesn't the canned CTA voice have some announcement in it's system that is used on all trains?

e.g: Attention Passengers, This train is now running Express to __________. __________ is next... doors open on the __________ at __________

__________ = Station name or side of the train doors open on

No, the operator does the announcement and the automated announcement just says the next stop.

[MetroShadow]

I don't get express trains ever, but doesn't the canned CTA voice have some announcement in it's system that is used on all trains?

e.g: Attention Passengers, This train is now running Express to __________. __________ is next... doors open on the __________ at __________

__________ = Station name or side of the train doors open on

Honestly, that makes sense.

- I've not ridden an express train on a 5000 train since they were tested in 2010.

- The last express train I rode on was yesterday (Blue Line) when I didn't even hear the announcement and just saw us bypass Logan Square

[owine]

I have never heard an automated announcement with the word express in it except for Purple Line Express.

Up until the December changes, you could find a train going express from Howard to Davis on the PLE several times a week.

[artthouwill]

Honestly, that makes sense.

- I've not ridden an express train on a 5000 train since they were tested in 2010.

- The last express train I rode on was yesterday (Blue Line) when I didn't even hear the announcement and just saw us bypass Logan Square

The first time I rode a 5000 "express train" was the first day I ever rode one, which was the first day of testing on the Red Line. After some issues, including the train lowering to the point a wheel char passenger could not get off the train at 35th, we ran express to Jackson. Other times riding Green Line expresses, the operator would make verbal announcements for how far the train would run express, then I guess they would keep pressing the button until they reached the desired station, then that announcement would play. As far as the Wells St detour on the Green Line (when the train had to run on the Wells/Van Buren side of the Loop), operators announced those stations themselves and only resumed the automated announcements when back on route.

As far as not hearing announcements, I'll never forget the day I was on an Englewood-Howard train going south at Roosevelt. We sat at Roosevelt for a minute, and it was a crowded train, but I just assumed he was running late. We leave Roosevelt, and I am looking at my watch wondering if I am going to make it to work on time, but I'm thinking I should make it to 47th in time. The train flies up the incline and down the tracks, then we blow past 35th St. Funny, but no one, and I mean no one, heard any announcement about our train running express. We skip Indiana, which was an A stop. Now I am assuming we are going to pass 43rd, and I hope we will stop at 47th. I was half right. We indeed skipped 43rd, but we skipped 47th, too. Now its dicey about 51st, but I figure that we definitely should stop at Garfield seeing as that is the last point to change for a B train to 63rd/University. I was half right again, 51st was skipped, and so was Garfield. Now I KNOW I'm going to be late and I'm wondering how far are we going to go before we stop. Well, we stopped at 58th, an A station. The motorman and the conductor got earfuls from all of the passengers with the conductor swearing that he made an announcement. I promise I don't think I have ever seen as many people on that platform at 58th EVER. In other words, there were more of us on that platform that day than I have ever seen combined riding by the station throughout my life. Imagine a rush hour Howard train emptying a crush load at Wilson. That's what 58th looked like. So the next northbound train comes, and its a B train, of course. That means it is skipping our station. I must mention, that the A train we were on hurried the heck out of the station before someone decided they wanted to hurt him.

[artthouwill]

I have never heard an automated announcement with the word express in it except for Purple Line Express.

Up until the December changes, you could find a train going express from Howard to Davis on the PLE several times a week.

The Purple Line Express is the only route without an automated destination announcement. In order words:

This is a Red Line train to 95th

This a Blue Line train to O'Hare

This is a Green Line train to Harlem and Lake

This is a Pink Line train to 54th and Cermak

This is a Brown Line train to Kimball

This is an Orange Line train to Midway

This is a Yellow Line train to Howard

This is a Purple Line Express

[owine]

The Purple Line Express is the only route without an automated destination announcement. In order words:

This is a Red Line train to 95th

This a Blue Line train to O'Hare

This is a Green Line train to Harlem and Lake

This is a Pink Line train to 54th and Cermak

This is a Brown Line train to Kimball

This is an Orange Line train to Midway

This is a Yellow Line train to Howard

This is a Purple Line Express

You are correct except for "This is a Purple Line Express to Downtown" is played on SB trains.

[Sam92]

You are correct except for "This is a Purple Line Express to Downtown" is played on SB trains.

Only until Howard. South of that is "This is a Purple Line Express" until it comes back to Howard then changes to "This is a Purple Line Train l

[See Tea Eh]

I'd like to make a comment about the Novas: back when Archer was still running, when the 21, 50, 60, 171, 172, & 174 were acquired from other garages, those routes ran with blank signs in certain directions. For example, the 21 would display proper signage going EB toward McCormick Place, but display a void sign WB toward North Riverside. Eventually most of the signage problems were fixed, but my assumption is that these destinations weren't programmed into Archer's Novas initially since they never were served those routes up until that spring shuffle landed those routes at Archer.

Not sure what happened in that case, but there wouldn't be a way to not include certain signs in some buses (well, technically there would, but it would involve a lot more work on the part of the guy doing the sign programming to create separate files for each garage). Once the sign programs are set at South Shops, they are loaded onto flash cards and sent out to the garages, but each bus gets the same program/file (assuming the sign is of the same type) regardless of the garage. There isn't a North Park file, and a Kedzie file, and a 103rd file, etc. So, if there was a problem with Archer's Novas showing signs correctly (and assuming there wasn't a Clever Devices problem), then the same issue would have been the case at any other garage with the same type of Nova TwinVision signs.

I also wish to point out my misconception of the word program; what I meant say was a computer program, such as Firefox. I wasn't using it in the context of the signage program that the CTA rolls out on the buses every other pick or so.

The word "program" can be a bit confusing in this context, because it can mean several different things. A sign program is probably better referred to as a sign file.