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garmon757

Bringing Back a Route and/or Segment

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@artthouwill Thank you for the compliment about this topic. Yes, it would make a lot of sense to bring back some x routes. That would've been very lovely to see.

@BusHunter Your thoughts about having a BRT on LSD is very exemplary but very challenging because of funding in conducting projects and breaking grounds on The Drive.

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Somebody asked me "What's with the negative approach from you inadvertently?" I'm not sure what that meant, but the inference I got was that someone wanted the response, which he got. And there was nothing inadvertent about it.

Now, if somebody wants to ask the administrator to change the topic to "Fantasy" bringing back a route or segment, fine. But, other than that, everyone has to realize that there are economic constraints to any such discussion, if it is serious.

And I think it's clear he like everyone knows the funding issue was the reason the routes are gone and very unlikely to come back from his starting the thread out with "If you had an opportunity to bring back a route......" So you know he ultimately was getting at the same question I posed to you about why even put a response from the very beginning given your opinion of the thread. So nice attempt at deflection and feigning not to know why you were confronted on the negativity. And even if you masked your response as being an innocent response to something else, you still didn't answer the question of why you feel the need to knock the thread rather than just ignore it and not say anything if it's so useless. That's usually what other folks do when they see a thread that has no use for them. ;)

Most everyone knows what route I want to see reinstated fully... so much so that I won't even mention the number or name. Members like Busjack and jajuan probably know since I mentioned it so much.

Well actually I already mentioned it, though I mentioned it as a partial restoration. :)

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....And even if you masked your response as being an innocent response to something else, you still didn't answer the question of why you feel the need to knock the thread rather than just ignore it and not say anything if it's so useless. That's usually what other folks do when they see a thread that has no use for them. ;)

Then you tell me why (1) garmon had a post where he changed the theory of the thread, (2) but that post was taken down by Kevin because it included insulting language directed at me, and (3) why you seem so obsessed lately in dictating to what threads I reply?

To clarify the valid point in garmon's above post: He said that the purpose of the thread was now remembering the old days. Fine enough. But then he shouldn't have asked the questions he did before that, if he didn't want a reply.

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I'm not so sure about BRT on LSD as far as eliminating the current express routes now in place. The first mention of elimination of anything and you'd have folks against it in droves. Just look at what the response was to eliminating 144 and 145 along with pulling the 148 off Wilson. If it were done similar to how Los Angeles handled BRT on its expressways there might be some merit to it. In Los Angeles' case, a designated busway with stations along the way like Bushunter mentioned was created on parts of LA's expressway system by the construction of designated bus lanes and stations on said expressways. Over the years carpool lanes were incorporated into the busways to make them transitways for both bus and car traffic. LA Metro's Silver Line BRT route actually uses those transitways along the expressways it provides service on. Plus LA Metro didn't scrap it's already existing express bus service on those expressways. If anything the transitways enhanced service for those express routes because the buses now get to zip along the expressway in their designated lanes rather than be delayed from being stuck in the usual rush hour traffic on the expressway in question. They also even serve some of the BRT stations now in place, if that station is a designated stop for that particular express route.

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Then you tell me why (1) garmon had a post where he changed the theory of the thread, (2) but that post was taken down by Kevin because it included insulting language directed at me, and (3) why you seem so obsessed lately in dictating to what threads I reply?

To clarify the valid point in garmon's above post: He said that the purpose of the thread was now remembering the old days. Fine enough. But then he shouldn't have asked the questions he did before that, if he didn't want a reply.

And you still didn't answer the question. I'm not dictating where or what you reply. But I am curious as to why lately you've shown an increasing need to bring down what have been light mood themed threads with your negative attitude and/or responses?

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And you still didn't answer the question. I'm not dictating where or what you reply. But I am curious as to why lately you've shown an increasing need to bring down what have been light mood themed threads with your negative attitude and/or responses?

In this case, because of that the poster didn't seem to recognize the economics, both in this thread and the one where he said that "we all know that the Ashland BRT is under construction."* In that there isn't a funding source for that, it is a fair inference that the connection could be made between those two posts and the point I made in the first sentence.

If "I'm not dictating where or what you reply" then why do you care about my attitude, which has not changed over 6 years? For that matter, who are you to decide for the rest of us that it is light hearted, if it wasn't so labelled as "fantasy" or "nostalgia" by the original author?

____

*Note between when I noted that, and the thread was locked, he changed the original post.

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In this case, because of that the poster didn't seem to recognize the economics, both in this thread and the one where he said that "we all know that the Ashland BRT is under construction."* In that there isn't a funding source for that, it is a fair inference that the connection could be made between those two posts and the point I made in the first sentence.

If "I'm not dictating where or what you reply" then why do you care about my attitude, which has not changed over 6 years? For that matter, who are you to decide for the rest of us that it is light hearted, if it wasn't so labelled as "fantasy" or "nostalgia" by the original author?

____

*Note between when I noted that, and the thread was locked, he changed the original post.

Given that everyone else responded with nostalgia of a route from their past without him having to explicitly say so it's kind of clear that how folks were taking the thread. So again I'm not dictating anything and nice try with trying to deflect. As for the BRT thread, I was under the impression that got locked because as Kevin stated we all discussed Ashland and Western BRT at length in another thread. Sure your attitude's been the same for six years but over that time I've never seen you actively going on the attack and dressing it up as something else more subtle as you appear to have been doing more of as of late.

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(77th could operate the X9, NP could operate the X49 along with 77th, and K could operate the X54).

Wouldn't make much sense to operate the X54 out of Kedzie when the route is close in proximity to Chicago Garage. Seeing as they now have artics assigned there...it would work if the latter were still around.

On the other hand, North Park no doubt could operate the X49 (again, if that still existed), but seeing as they are already strained providing articulated buses already on the routes that need them most (ala 147), Western would be the last place they would assign them. Considering a route of such length would no doubt require more that 20 buses to maintain scheduled headway during peak service, they wouldn't be willing to spare such and sacrifice on routes that need them most.

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If you had an opportunity to bring back a route and/or segment of a route, which route(s) would you choose and why? (You can also include a night owl route, express route, Pace route, or you can create an extension and/or cut a segment towards a current CTA/Pace route.)

My answer is: 49 Western to be extended to 95th/The Plaza but end at 79th after The Plaza closes. I feel like since 49A South Western was discontinued last year it has been very inconvenient traveling the The Plaza. The 349 is optional but some people don't like paying extra fare if they have a 1 or $28 7-day pass. Why not have some flexibility? 48 South Damen only runs during AM/PM rush hours to The Plaza in which that's not convenient enough for traveling. It should just originate back to 87th.

I highly agree.

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can you at least give a hint garage-wise? Lol

I'll give you several...

  • This route has two numbers exactly the same
  • This route is broken in two sections and runs to a northern suburb of Chicago
  • This route is named after a famous U.S President and a subdivision of a major automobile company in the U.S.

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<p>

I'll give you several...

  • This route has two numbers exactly the same
  • This route is broken in two sections and runs to a northern suburb of Chicago
  • This route is named after a famous U.S President and a subdivision of a major automobile company in the U.S.
Ahh... now that you mention it, those outbound buses were pretty full early In the route around PM rush (I used to see people standing already on those buses when they passed the Potbelly I transferred to on Randolph and Franklin.) Might explain why a few artics pop up here and there on the 37.

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Here's a few experimental service changes that I believe should have been permanent.

145 Wilson/Michigan Express back when its express zone was from Irving Park to get people downtown faster from Irving Park throughout the day instead of just rush hour. (148 would support 146).

148 Clarendon/Michigan Express would have an express zone between Belmont and Delaware using the 145's rush hour routing to support 146.

28 Stony Island to Union Station would be an all day route. (earliest and latest trips would be between 47th and 103rd) Gives another south siders between Cottage Grove and Jeffery another option for Express service to downtown other than Jeffery and the Dan Ryan. Would help alleviate J14's midday crowds that occur in the off peak

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@jajuan I want to thank you for trying to defend me about this topic I've created.

@Busjack If you want to talk about yourself being verbally insulted resulting that post to be taken down then that's on you. About me creating a post about the BRT, I didn't know that it was another thread about it because I started to consistently read and reply to topics last month. Yes indeed I made a mistake saying that the construction was underway but that slick comment you made about it was totally unnecessary. Now that's an insult but it wouldn't change my attitude and personality while I'm on here wether you like me or not. That's why I called you out by saying what I've said. Jajuan was right about you not answering the question about this topic while you're deplorably downing it with your own nonsense.

To everybody else: Thank you all for your input. I see that some of the express routes would also be a popular choice to bring back.

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....

@Busjack If you want to talk about yourself being verbally insulted resulting that post to be taken down then that's on you. ...

There are community guidelines, maybe you should read them before using one of George Carlin's 7 banned words, and especially directed to some one personally.

....

About me creating a post about the BRT, I didn't know that it was another thread about it because I started to consistently read and reply to topics last month. Yes indeed I made a mistake saying that the construction was underway but that slick comment you made about it was totally unnecessary. .... your own nonsense.

  • I didn't lock that thread or have anything to do with locking that thread. I merely pointed out your inaccuracy and the inference I took from it.
  • Apparently you find it necessary to be thought police and say directly that what someone else says is nonsense, when all I did was take an indirect jab at something without calling it the nonsense it was. Show some courtesy to the other members.

Since this is going nowhere, that's the last I am going to say about it.

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I'll give you several...

  • This route has two numbers exactly the same
  • This route is broken in two sections and runs to a northern suburb of Chicago
  • This route is named after a famous U.S President and a subdivision of a major automobile company in the U.S.

I remember when this route had its southern terminus at Michigan/Balbo. It operated via Wells, Chicago, and Michigan Ave. Northbound it operated via Balbo, State, Wacker, Michigan, Chicago, Wells, and over regular route. On Sundays, the route terminated at Clark/Wisconsin.

Then the 149 Stateliner was eliminated and this route was rerouted to serve the Museums and operated via the 149 routing in both directions between Michigan/Chicago and the Museums.

Eventually it was decided that the 146 Marine/Michigan was a better fit and it was rerouted via the old 149 Stateliner routing and this route was cut back to Clark/Wisconsin at all times.

The 37 Sedgwick was the last thru route that operated through downtown, operating between Lincoln Park and University of Illinois Medical Center around Taylor/Damen. Then it was decided combine this route with an eliminated Ogden route to fofm the 37 Sedgwick/Ogden routing terminating around Ogden/Pulaski. Then it was decided rto split the route in half, with the 37 terminating around DesPlaines and Harrison and a new 38 Ogden/Taylor operating the west end of the route with its northern terminus at Clinton/Lake Green Line.

The 38 was combined with the 157 Streeterville and renamed the 157 Streeterville/Taylor and its westernterminus became Ogden/California. The 37 was combined with this route to form a route operating between Lincolnwood and Desplaines/Harrison. Most recently the decision was made to bring back the 37, and this other route was pared all the way back to the Western Brown Line for its southern terminus.

Remember the 210 when it operated downtown? Then it would proceed north on Lake Shore to Irving Park, then operate to the Western station on the Ravenswood (Brown Line). Then it operated via this route into the suburbs and eventually to Glenbrook. Nortran operated that route, then it was pared back to only operate to Western terminal and now Lincoln Town Center.

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Here's a few experimental service changes that I believe should have been permanent.

145 Wilson/Michigan Express back when its express zone was from Irving Park to get people downtown faster from Irving Park throughout the day instead of just rush hour. (148 would support 146).

148 Clarendon/Michigan Express would have an express zone between Belmont and Delaware using the 145's rush hour routing to support 146.

28 Stony Island to Union Station would be an all day route. (earliest and latest trips would be between 47th and 103rd) Gives another south siders between Cottage Grove and Jeffery another option for Express service to downtown other than Jeffery and the Dan Ryan. Would help alleviate J14's midday crowds that occur in the off peak

Reversing how the express zones operated on the 145 and 148 would have been interesting. From my understanding of why the 28 went back to local operations in off peak hours instead of being an express route at all times of operation was due in part outside of ridership issues in non peak hours to some living in the Hyde Park area thinking that somehow the 15 alone isn't enough to provide service on Lake Park south of E. Hyde Park Blvd. If you remember, they even tried again routing all 28 buses (both local trips and express into downtown) via E. and S. Hyde Park Blvd. north of the Museum when they scrapped the X28 route number and folded some of those trips back into service under the 28 route number. But it didn't last long and they again made it local trips via Lake Park and express ones via Hyde Park.

I remember when this route had its southern terminus at Michigan/Balbo. It operated via Wells, Chicago, and Michigan Ave. Northbound it operated via Balbo, State, Wacker, Michigan, Chicago, Wells, and over regular route. On Sundays, the route terminated at Clark/Wisconsin.

Then the 149 Stateliner was eliminated and this route was rerouted to serve the Museums and operated via the 149 routing in both directions between Michigan/Chicago and the Museums.

Eventually it was decided that the 146 Marine/Michigan was a better fit and it was rerouted via the old 149 Stateliner routing and this route was cut back to Clark/Wisconsin at all times.

The 37 Sedgwick was the last thru route that operated through downtown, operating between Lincoln Park and University of Illinois Medical Center around Taylor/Damen. Then it was decided combine this route with an eliminated Ogden route to fofm the 37 Sedgwick/Ogden routing terminating around Ogden/Pulaski. Then it was decided rto split the route in half, with the 37 terminating around DesPlaines and Harrison and a new 38 Ogden/Taylor operating the west end of the route with its northern terminus at Clinton/Lake Green Line.

The 38 was combined with the 157 Streeterville and renamed the 157 Streeterville/Taylor and its westernterminus became Ogden/California. The 37 was combined with this route to form a route operating between Lincolnwood and Desplaines/Harrison. Most recently the decision was made to bring back the 37, and this other route was pared all the way back to the Western Brown Line for its southern terminus.

Remember the 210 when it operated downtown? Then it would proceed north on Lake Shore to Irving Park, then operate to the Western station on the Ravenswood (Brown Line). Then it operated via this route into the suburbs and eventually to Glenbrook. Nortran operated that route, then it was pared back to only operate to Western terminal and now Lincoln Town Center.

Interesting history on the 11 into downtown, but if I remember correctly at the time they scrapped the downtown portion during the 90s under the big Booz-Allen cuts that really sent CTA management's popularity down the tubes, the south terminus on weekdays was Wells/Congress. At that time south of Lincoln it operated via Clark, LaSalle, Chicago, Michigan, Wacker, State and Congress to Wells. Then under the Booz-Allen ax all trips terminated at the weekend terminus of Clark/North. Under the restructuring that reworked the Evanston routes and merged the 93 with part of the old 204, the north terminus was changed from Devon/Kedzie to Howard/McCormick to account for the 93 no longer terminating there. It would return to providing downtown service just as you laid out, through the merging of the 37 Sedwick with the 11 a short time after the Sedwick/Ogden route was split into 37 and 38.

The cutback of bus service on Ogden to California actually came before the 38 was merged into the 157. A year before the merging during summer of 2008 if I remember right, CTA decided to experiment with expanding bus service on Ogden and Taylor by restoring midday service back to that stretch of bus service for the first time since the former 37 Sedwick/Ogden got scaled back to rush hour only under Booz-Allen. The catch though was that upon restoration of midday service all service on Ogden west of California up to the Pulaski Pink Line station was eliminated. The merging with the 157 came September of that following year. Bill V gives the merging date as Sept. 6, 2009.

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Thnks jajuan. I forgot about the Congress/Wells terminal.

No problem. I just happened to remember during trips downtown as a kid and teenager during the late 80's and early 90's, I happened to see North Park fishbowls, Americanas and later TMCs (upon the route becoming accessible in 1991) serving that route along Michigan Avenue and State Street heading to Wells/Congress.

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From what I hear there is not much to the Plaza these days[Carson's is the only store left?].

That might be the only problem with a #49 extension.

Its official "The Plaza" which was the country's first and oldest indoor mall, is being completely phased out and being replaced with a outdoor strip mall. They already have a Walmart, Sams Club, and Meijer (opened early this year). Now there are plans for more big boxes such as Home Depot and Best Buy. Plus there are plenty of shops on the Beverly side of Western, so the area is still a traffic generator and major transfer point for a 49 extension.

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Its official "The Plaza" which was the country's first and oldest indoor mall, is being completely phased out and being replaced with a outdoor strip mall. They already have a Walmart, Sams Club, and Meijer (opened early this year). Now there are plans for more big boxes such as Home Depot and Best Buy. Plus there are plenty of shops on the Beverly side of Western, so the area is still a traffic generator and major transfer point for a 49 extension.

According to the a June 5, 2013 article of the online Chicago edition of the Huffington Post, it's been official since May 31, the last day what remaining stores there closed their doors. The article says that the mall's been in foreclosure since 2011 after a financial downturn caused by the recent recession as well as a fire in 2007. Only the Carson's that Gene referenced and a Planet Fitness, which signed a ten-year lease in 2011 are open now.

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According to the a June 5, 2013 article of the online Chicago edition of the Huffington Post, it's been official since May 31, the last day what remaining stores there closed their doors. The article says that the mall's been in foreclosure since 2011 after a financial downturn caused by the recent recession as well as a fire in 2007. Only the Carson's that Gene referenced and a Planet Fitness, which signed a ten-year lease in 2011 are open now.

In that case, any justification for bringing back the X49 to Evergreen Plaza seems to have been lost. (Besides that, I don't think CTA wants to encourage sales tax transactions in Evergreen Park). Between the old 49A/349 and current 349 south of 79th, there doesn't seem to be much of any difference.

Getting back to the 48 debate, one now wonders why CTA extended 48 there, except maybe to connect with 349 and 381.

Heck, I missed that it had been renamed from Evergreen Plaza to The Plaza, not that it made any difference.

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In that case, any justification for bringing back the X49 to Evergreen Plaza seems to have been lost. (Besides that, I don't think CTA wants to encourage sales tax transactions in Evergreen Park). Between the old 49A/349 and current 349 south of 79th, there doesn't seem to be much of any difference.

An Applebee's and Enterprise Rent-A-Car are also said to be opened as separate buildings, but you're right that it doesn't sound like there's enough to raw any traffic there until such time the conversion to a strip mall is completed. Though I get what you're saying about the tax dollars point, CTA is already steering sales tax dollars to municipalities outside Chicago with the 21 going to North Riverside Mall and the 82 and 96 serving Lincolnwood Town Center.

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An Applebee's and Enterprise Rent-A-Car are also said to be opened as separate buildings, but you're right that it doesn't sound like there's enough to raw any traffic there until such time the conversion to a strip mall is completed.

I think that, even if completed, it isn't going to be the kind of destination that justifies on premises bus service.

Seems like most of the old malls are going in this direction. It looks like Randhurst Village successfully made the transition, but they didn't leave adequate facilities for a bus stop, and 234 and 696 no longer stop on the property.

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....Though I get what you're saying about the tax dollars point, CTA is already steering sales tax dollars to municipalities outside Chicago with the 21 going to North Riverside Mall and the 82 and 96 serving Lincolnwood Town Center.

Must have come up later.

Yes they are doing that, and maybe their viewpoint is just "change the funding formula so we get 81% of the tax revenue" instead of about 40% under the current formulas (30% of old retailers occupational tax and 48% of new one).

CTA also goes up to Old Orchard, but I've questioned going that far beyond the city limits before.

I was essentially relying on Mayor Daley's remark during the first Walmart dispute about "Evergreen Park can have those sales tax dollars, but Chicago can't."

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Of course the big flaw in that line of thinking from the former mayor, is that Pace routes 379 through 385 directly serve Ford City which is within Chicago city limits on their way to the Midway Orange Line station. You've got residents from more than a handful of southwest suburban municipalities coming into the city to spend money and therefore generating city sales tax dollars just from that setup alone. And of course there are the suburbanites who work within the city who just go ahead and shop in the city along with buying meals in the city because it's more convenient to do so. This is in part why I found the arguments of Pace should stay on the suburban side of the line and CTA on the city side, on some level silly. Under that logic Western would see zero bus service today between 79th and 119th Streets outside of the mile stretch served by the 48 during rush hour since the 49A is now history. Not to mention half of Evanston's bus service would not exist since Pace hasn't exactly stepped up to the plate to take over the service.

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