5000-series - Updates

[trainman8119]

Driving by the Skokie Yard last night, I noted at least 6 5000 series cars on the eastermost track next to the classic 2000 series. There are still a flock of 2200's there also, back off the street a bit, closer to the building.

[Guest DevalDragon]

Surprise! The 5000's are on the Purple Line Express this afternoon. Just saw them at Belmont today (1/17).

[MRCTA]

Not only won't many of the Huberman-proposed changes be in the prototypes, they won't make it into the final order. Sources said that the changes would have resulted in even more delays and tens, if not hundreds, more millions of dollars.

Here's a list of some of the design changes he told the Tattler about more than a year ago. Most changes have been jettisoned.

# Recessed lighting. - Nope

# Reading lights. - Nope

# Six 9-inch TV screens in each car, rotating CTA info and advertising. - Nope, way too expensive and would require significant electrical design changes

# No more advertising cards -- the small TVs are replacing all paper ad cards. - Wrong

# Computerized Internet controls mean no more herky-jerky rides. - Not an accurate description, but there will be smoother rides as a result of better computer controls

# A "smart" systems map in the middle of the car pinpointing the train's current location. - Not sure if this is in the prototype

# The same number of seats arranged longitudinally to allow for more standing room. - True

# A padded "butt perch" in the area where a wheelchair would go so if there was no disabled passenger onboard, other passengers could rest against the padded perch. - Nope

# Security cameras in each car. - Probably not in the prototype, but in the final delivery

Not noted on this list, but some of the exterior cosmetic design changes Huberman proposed are not on the two cars that were delivered Friday. (The two-toned swirly design on the upper half of the exterior that can be seen in the rendering linked here was not visible on the delivered cars)

Hooray for the 5000s! Isn't that great? isn't that terrific? New 5000 L Cars! Haven't ridden the CTA in ages!

[BusHunter]

Driving by the Skokie Yard last night, I noted at least 6 5000 series cars on the eastermost track next to the classic 2000 series. There are still a flock of 2200's there also, back off the street a bit, closer to the building.

Interesting sighting. Did you manage to see a car number? I'm wondering if those could possibly be the new deliveries or those are just the prototypes being laid up. That section of the yard seems to me to be more long term storage than an active fleet storage. (with the #2000 series and #2977-78 laid up there) I'm also thinking with the two lines being tested together that the cars may be close to delivery (if it hasn't already started) this way they could be sent out within a month. All of the testing should've been done by the end of the year, but the equipment snafu during the green line delayed that by about a month so the timing could be correct on the new cars arrival. BTW, yesterday I saw #5005-06 laid up in Howard yard. #5012-11 are the assigned yellow line cars and the rest were assigned to the purple line.

[Busjack]

Interesting sighting. Did you manage to see a car number? I'm wondering if those could possibly be the new deliveries or those are just the prototypes being laid up. That section of the yard seems to me to be more long term storage than an active fleet storage. (with the #2000 series and #2977-78 laid up there) I'm also thinking with the two lines being tested together that the cars may be close to delivery (if it hasn't already started) this way they could be sent out within a month. All of the testing should've been done by the end of the year, but the equipment snafu during the green line delayed that by about a month so the timing could be correct on the new cars arrival. BTW, yesterday I saw #5005-06 laid up in Howard yard. #5012-11 are the assigned yellow line cars and the rest were assigned to the purple line.

One would think that it is just the cars laid up, as CTA (at least their PR department) has been consistently clear over the past year that the order will not be finalized until the test is successfully completed on all 8 lines. I don't think that Bombadier wants to take the risk of holding onto a number of $1.6 million rejects, given the recent NABI debacle and NF getting stuck with 14 bus bodies as a result of jumping the gun. That is notwithstanding the goof on Wikipedia who kept posting that the 2200s and 2400s would be out of service in 2010.

In fact, after the Alstom rebuilding of the 2600s, the tracks at the Skokie Shop are relatively empty, compared to what they were before then.

Also, one would think that if the cars have to pass on all lines, none would be "assigned" to just the Yellow Line. If CTA doesn't rotate them, I would be surprised.

[BusHunter]

One would think that it is just the cars laid up, as CTA (at least their PR department) has been consistently clear over the past year that the order will not be finalized until the test is successfully completed on all 8 lines. I don't think that Bombadier wants to take the risk of holding onto a number of $1.6 million rejects, given the recent NABI debacle and NF getting stuck with 14 bus bodies as a result of jumping the gun. That is notwithstanding the goof on Wikipedia who kept posting that the 2200s and 2400s would be out of service in 2010.

In fact, after the Alstom rebuilding of the 2600s, the tracks at the Skokie Shop are relatively empty, compared to what they were before then.

Also, one would think that if the cars have to pass on all lines, none would be "assigned" to just the Yellow Line. If CTA doesn't rotate them, I would be surprised.

The cars are most likely being built as we speak. It's just a matter of to what level. Bombardier would have to be prepared to some level or we wouldn't see cars until 2012. The President's visit to the Bombardier plant showed us that. With 10 cars already on site in Chicago, we were shown another one, although IIRC, it didn't have a fleet number yet. We'll see just how many cars show up when they do. If they come out with 20-40 cars versus 12 a month, something was being built ahead of schedule. As far as the #2200's and #2400's, because the #2200's are not accessible they most likely will be gone first. This will be there last winter most likely.

[Busjack]

There might be some low level, but, again, most reports are that production deliveries are not expected at least until late 2011.

I was going to ask for the link to the photo, but apparently it is here.

[sw4400]

I think we'll see some before 2012. 5001-5002 are already up and running, but at Bombadier for testing. They'll probably be the next set to come in after the tests are completed and the order is placed. There are other units already built at the plant as well, how many is anyone's guess. I'd say somewhere between 20-40 married pairs are ready for shipping. The remainder of the order will be built when the order is finalized.

[Busjack]

There are other units already built at the plant as well, how many is anyone's guess. I'd say somewhere between 20-40 married pairs are ready for shipping. The remainder of the order will be built when the order is finalized.

What evidence is there of that?

[sw4400]

What evidence is there of that?

There was an article I read regarding the 5000's awhile back either from a link on this forum, or one from the tattler, or a local paper/news station that was talking about the 5000's and in it, it mentioned there were several 5000-Series units already built and at the Bombadier plant.

[Busjack]

There was an article I read regarding the 5000's awhile back either from a link on this forum, or one from the tattler, or a local paper/news station that was talking about the 5000's and in it, it mentioned there were several 5000-Series units already built and at the Bombadier plant.

I suggest that you search for it then.

At least I was able to trace BusHunter's reference.

[BusHunter]

There might be some low level, but, again, most reports are that production deliveries are not expected at least until late 2011.

I was going to ask for the link to the photo, but apparently it is here.

Where did you hear that? I heard deliveries start after the prototypes end testing. Also to elaborate further on what I said before about #5012-11 on the Yellow, they were outfitted with Yellow Line car cards. The other cars with Purple so, if someone would run the other cars on the yellow they would have the other lines car cards in them (although that's never stopped CTA before) But this appears to be what they intend to do, barring a service malfunction. I don't know the status of #5005-06. (what car cards were in them) Maybe that's the spare, but it's probably assigned to purple.

[Busjack]

Where did you hear that?

Since I asked sw the same, fair enough. Based on what I can search, there are references in the Tribune (May 23, 2010) and CTA Tattler (November 16, 2010) to "next year," which I suppose could be construed as any time in 2011, although I wonder about the imminence given the date of the CTA Tattler post.

However, my main inference is based on this project being more than a year, and closer to two, behind from the schedule indicated in this Press Release, as far as when the test units were delivered and the length of testing.

Now, that I have provided links for where I got my assertions, I expect sw to do the same.

[BusHunter]

Since I asked sw the same, fair enough. Based on what I can search, there are references in the Tribune (May 23, 2010) and CTA Tattler (November 16, 2010) to "next year," which I suppose could be construed as any time in 2011, although I wonder about the imminence given the date of the CTA Tattler post.

However, my main inference is based on this project being more than a year, and closer to two, behind from the schedule indicated in this Press Release, as far as when the test units were delivered and the length of testing.

Now, that I have provided links for where I got my assertions, I expect sw to do the same.

The CTA press release states that the cars delivered in 2012 are the first option cars, (the second 206 after the base order of 200) which would be here in 2011. Although since this was written there's been a few delays during testing, so there may be a few less cars delivered by 2012 than mentioned. If you figure the math on this delivery, by what we know (12 a month, 144 cars a year) you would get to the 406 mark by Oct 2013. Factor in a few months delay and it would become Jan or Feb 2014. So roughly a delivery schedule between 2011-2013. If cars were received starting during 2012 that would add another year (2015) and all press releases state delivery by 2013 which would cancel out that theory. The years 2014 and on will be when the last 300 arrive getting to a total of 706.

[Busjack]

The CTA press release states that the cars delivered in 2012 are the first option cars, (the second 206 after the base order of 200) which would be here in 2011. Although since this was written there's been a few delays during testing, ...

There was also basically a year to 18 month delay in just getting the prototypes delivered, since that release said that "Delivery of prototype rail cars is expected in 2008. Production of the base order of 206 is expected to begin in 2009 with delivery beginning in 2010."

The top of the thread indicates that the first two were seen about Sept. 25, 2009, and the first official testing on the Red Line was in mid April, 2010.

So, basically adding two years to each of the dates in the press release, you get delivery beginning in 2012. Anyway, the assumption was that delivery would start two years after the prototypes and a year after production was expected to begin.

Of course, I'll concede:

• whether one can believe anything from the Kruesi PR office.
• Bombardier probably has some parts and work in the pipeline, and if testing hasn't gone bad since the Green Line, is probably confident that it will use them. However, the consistent CTA statement is that it won't accept delivery until the prototypes complete testing on all lines, so any manufacturing to this point is at Bombadier's risk.

[BusHunter]

There was also basically a year to 18 month delay in just getting the prototypes delivered, since that release said that "Delivery of prototype rail cars is expected in 2008. Production of the base order of 206 is expected to begin in 2009 with delivery beginning in 2010."

The top of the thread indicates that the first two were seen about Sept. 25, 2009, and the first official testing on the Red Line was in mid April, 2010.

So, basically adding two years to each of the dates in the press release, you get delivery beginning in 2012. Anyway, the assumption was that delivery would start two years after the prototypes and a year after production was expected to begin.

Of course, I'll concede:

• whether one can believe anything from the Kruesi PR office.
• Bombardier probably has some parts and work in the pipeline, and if testing hasn't gone bad since the Green Line, is probably confident that it will use them. However, the consistent CTA statement is that it won't accept delivery until the prototypes complete testing on all lines, so any manufacturing to this point is at Bombadier's risk.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens, but the 2011 Budget does indicate cars will come in 2011. How many is anyone's guess.

[Busjack]

We'll just have to wait and see what happens,

That's definitely the case.

but the 2011 Budget does indicate cars will come in 2011. How many is anyone's guess.

I couldn't find that. There are references in the President's Letter "In the coming year, we will be moving ahead with the first order of new rail cars in more than 15 years" (page 3, 7 of the pdf) and in Executive Summary that "the delivery of the new 5000-series rail cars that will feature two wheelchair positions per car, visual indicators and improved visual displays" (page 9, 13 of the pdf) and with regard to features of the cars (page 10, 14 of the pdf).

However, if one wants to read tea leaves from the budget (and as Rocky the Flying Squirrel says, "but that never works'), in the Proposed Capital Improvement Program (page 63, 67 of the pdf), the line item "132.056 Purchase Rail Cars" is blank for 2011. Of course, while the Total Project of $1.045 billion looks about right for the 706 cars, the 2012-2015 number of $103 million doesn't make sense (maybe 70 cars). Maybe one can assume that this is like the Option 3 and 4 buses, and only the bond payments are budgeted.

Update: I did see one tea leaf that would support the conclusion, which is that the Operating Statistics (page 121, 125 of the pdf) has a fleet increase of 50 and an average age decline of one year.

[Guest DevalDragon]

I know there are at least 20 new CTA car 'shells' at Bombardier's plant in New York. As to what stage of completion they are in is anybody's guess.

[nflyer22]

Does anyone know the schedule for the 5000 series for the Yellow and/or Purple Lines? I want to catch a ride on them, haven't ridden them since April when they debuted on the Red Line, but I don't know the exact runs they are running on, nor when they leave the terminals. Any knowledge is appreciated. Many thanks in advance.

[Mr.cta85]

Hey have anybody heard anything new about the 5000's lately? also I wanted to know if anybody else knew what happends once the 5000's are done testing on the Purple and Yellow lines. Do they go back to Skokie for a while until the rest of the new fleet come or will they put the prototypes to work on the Blue Line as the rest of them come in?

[sw4400]

Also I wanted to know if anybody else knew what happends once the 5000's are done testing on the Purple and Yellow lines.

I'll make a speculation that when completed, they'll be sent to the Skokie Shops while the CTA gets the evaluations together and notifies Bombadier about any changes to make to the order. Following that, we'll start to see some more railcars, including 5001-5002, which are in Plattsburgh, NY, for testing purposes. Where they go when they start arriving is anyone's guess. But if that little bit that artthouwill read from the CTA Infrastructure Improvement Press Release on the Chicagobus.org home page(now probably searchable through transitchicago.com), then the Brown Line will see the 5000's first, with possibly the Yellow seeing them next. I imagine then the 3200's from the Brown Line and the 10 2600's from the Yellow Line will be moved to the Blue Line, retiring all or most of the 2200's still in service. Some of the 2600's on the Blue Line will be transferred to the Purple and Green Lines to start retirement of the 2400's, with the final order of 5000's finishing the retirement and maybe starting retirement on the early-numbered 2600's built in 1981(2601-2670).

I linked the Press Release here to read. Am I right? I honestly don't know. I'm just going on what the CTA reported in the Press Release.

[BusHunter]

I didn't see the purple line #5000's last Wed. or Thurs. The first day of service they were running in the PM as follows: 3:58 at Clark/Lake, 4:41 at Howard NB, 5:22 leaving Linden SB, 6:00 at Clark/Lake. But like I say those two days last week I didn't see them in that time slot. I did see #5010-09 on the yellow which were on the purple line the first day. Typically the #5000 runs every third train during the PM rush on the yellow, so they should be fairly easy to spot there. As far as #5000 assignments go I'd be surprised if they don't end up on the Red line. With the cars being able to travel 70 mph the only place they could do that now is on the blue line, but if they upgrade the ties on the Dan Ryan like they did the blue, they could establish that as a 70 mph line. Then they have two lines that would better serve the cars capabilities. As far as #5001-02, I don't think well see them just yet. Bombardier most likely needs a test train themselves to toy with to serve as an example.

[sw4400]

With the cars being able to travel 70 mph the only place they could do that now is on the blue line, but if they upgrade the ties on the Dan Ryan like they did the blue, they could establish that as a 70 mph line.

All the current railcar stock can go up to 70 mph(introduced with the 2000's in 1964), but they are all governed to 55 mph. I don't think that'll change. As far as new rail ties, the Brown Line has all new plastic or rubber rail ties since the modernization project, they are set for 70 mph, if the CTA wants to take off the governing device.

[westing]

As far as new rail ties, the Brown Line has all new plastic or rubber rail ties since the modernization project, they are set for 70 mph, if the CTA wants to take off the governing device.

It doesn't seem the Brown Line renewal project was so successful with track rehabilitation. Since October, large slow zones have popped up south of Armitage. The line has 17,203' of slow zones according to the most recent slow zone map. This seems ridiculous for a rehabbed line. Even if the track was fine, the line still has numerous slow curves the prohibit fast operations.

[csl3407]

Hey have anybody heard anything new about the 5000's lately? also I wanted to know if anybody else knew what happends once the 5000's are done testing on the Purple and Yellow lines. Do they go back to Skokie for a while until the rest of the new fleet come or will they put the prototypes to work on the Blue Line as the rest of them come in?

I would expect them to go back to the Red Line or Blue Line for a few weeks before the testing period is considered complete. Before delivery began, the CTA said the cars would be tested through three seasons, including complete summer and winter seasons. I don't know if they have seen enough winter yet. (Blue makes sense because that's where the cars are likely to go, Red makes sense because it exposes the cars to different winter environments - embankment, elevated structure, subway and expressway median)