Restored Service/Routes

[XE NewFlyer]

route ideas part 2

74 extended to the zoo

57 extended to jeff park blue line

99 Central Park start: 32nd/Millard end: Foster/Drake

83 Ogden express start: Fry end: 42nd PL/center

162 Irving Park/Michigan express start: Congress plaza end: Mango/Berteau express from Ontario/Orleans to Irving Park Blue Line

204 North Sheridan start: Howard station end: Westerfield/10th

[TaylorTank1229]

On July 22, 2016 at 7:20 PM, XE NewFlyer said:

route ideas part 2

74 extended to the zoo

57 extended to jeff park blue line

99 Central Park start: 32nd/Millard end: Foster/Drake

83 Ogden start: Fry end: 42nd PL/center

162 Irving Park/Michigan express start: Congress plaza end: Mango/Berteau express from Ontario/Orleans to Irving Park Blue Line

204 North Sheridan start: Howard station end: Westerfield/10th

74, it would be a decent idea if the street didn't get so narrow between Halsted and Stockton, making it difficult for buses to move through. It's routing could be east on Fullerton then clockwise via south on Cannon/Zoo Driveway, east on North Ave, north on Stockton, and west back on Fullerton.

57, could be something CTA could look into, but I know won't. Could go with a 57A - North Laramie route, having Monday thru Saturday service running between Jefferson Park Transit Center and Grand/Cicero (Metra Milwaukee Dis. West Line) on weekdays via Milwaukee, Sunnyside, Laramie, Grand, Armitage, Cicero, Grand, and back north on Laramie. Saturday buses would have Grand/Latrobe as its south terminal. Would run on Forest Glen Garage.

A Central Park bus would definitely be unlikely since we got adjacent service with the 82 Kimball/Homan bus which is just 1/4 mile east of Central Park Ave, besides north of Belmont has no way for buses to travel along the street.

Odgen west of Cicero is pretty much Pace territory.

[MetroShadow]

On July 20, 2016 at 5:35 AM, XE NewFlyer said:

route ideas part 1

32 Clybourn/Oak start: westin hotel end:Belmont and elston/california

61 Augusta start chicago blue line end: Thatcher/Iowa

149 Ridge/Michigan express start: Congress plaza end: Howard station express from Michigan/Delaware to Hollywood

155 extened to Arther/Home

58 Ravenswood start: Wellington end: Lunt

 

On July 22, 2016 at 5:20 PM, XE NewFlyer said:

route ideas part 2

74 extended to the zoo

57 extended to jeff park blue line

99 Central Park start: 32nd/Millard end: Foster/Drake

83 Ogden start: Fry end: 42nd PL/center

162 Irving Park/Michigan express start: Congress plaza end: Mango/Berteau express from Ontario/Orleans to Irving Park Blue Line

204 North Sheridan start: Howard station end: Westerfield/10th

Please back up your suggestions, per the community guidelines: 

 

Backup facts and explain your positions. If making a statement of fact, always provide supporting evidence. For opinions or suggestions, always provide justification for your position. For example, do not suggest changes to CTA routes or operations without providing reasonable justification.

[XE NewFlyer]

how about restoring the 145

[Busjack]

18 hours ago, XE NewFlyer said:

how about restoring the 145

Unless there is some need for service on Wilson (and it is getting a new L station, which is fed by 78 Montrose) no point.

145 local between Irving Park and Belmont only existed because at the time of the 2003 NLSD restructuring, some people complained that they lost half their bus service because there was only 146, even though it was simply a numbering matter. Most of the 145s were later truncated to Grace (148 covering north of there), and in the Crowd Reduction Plan, the Grace trips simply became 146 short terminals. Frequency was not affected (145 no longer existed as a route number, but 146 went from once every 20 minutes to 10).

I also note that while there was a lot of complaining about 11 being cut, none of the media reported any complaint about Wilson losing 145 and 148.*

______________________________

*148 used to go to Wilson-Ravenswood during the rush when 145 didn't, but was rerouted to Marine Dr.-Foster when 144 was cut as part of the Crowd Reduction Plan.

[andrethebusman]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 9:15 PM, TaylorTank1229 said:

74, it would be a decent idea if the street didn't get so narrow between Halsted and Stockton, making it difficult for buses to move through. It's routing could be east on Fullerton then clockwise via south on Cannon/Zoo Driveway, east on North Ave, north on Stockton, and west back on Fullerton.

57, could be something CTA could look into, but I know won't. Could go with a 57A - North Laramie route, having Monday thru Saturday service running between Jefferson Park Transit Center and Grand/Cicero (Metra Milwaukee Dis. West Line) on weekdays via Milwaukee, Sunnyside, Laramie, Grand, Armitage, Cicero, Grand, and back north on Laramie. Saturday buses would have Grand/Latrobe as its south terminal. Would run on Forest Glen Garage.

A Central Park bus would definitely be unlikely since we got adjacent service with the 82 Kimball/Homan bus which is just 1/4 mile east of Central Park Ave, besides north of Belmont has no way for buses to travel along the street.

Odgen west of Cicero is pretty much Pace territory.

Fullerton east of Halsted has a sad history of multiple unsuccessful attempts. First the "L"ephant Shuttle form Sheffield to Lincoln Park, then some thru rush hour buses via Fullerton-Clark-Armitage-Lincoln, the 74L-E Fullerton again a shuttle. All efforts had same problem - intolerable congestion on narrow street east of Orchard.

Laramie had bus service in the 1920's all the way to Elston via Laramie-Ainslie (Sunnyside didn't exist then)-Milwaukee-Lipps-Laramie. Run by Chicago Motor Coach, forced off the street by court for "infringing" in CSL territory.

Central Park same situation. CMC had route in 1920's from Franklin up Central Park-Avondale-Addison-Central Park-Ardmore-Kimball to Peterson. Ended for same reason, though here a bigger problem was extremely narrow street, especially north of Addison, which is why CSL eventually set up shop on Kimball and Homan, though until early 30's Kimball didn't even exist between Addison and Diversey, and was much narrower than today between Diversey and North until early 1960's. Central Park would have been preferred in 1920's before large-scale on-street parking, but now would be impassable by buses.

[geneking7320]

I saw an article in the Chicago Reader you might find interesting:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/north-lawndale-ogden-bus-service/Content?oid=23029863

[Busjack]

20 minutes ago, geneking7320 said:

I saw an article in the Chicago Reader you might find interesting:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/north-lawndale-ogden-bus-service/Content?oid=23029863

Several things hit me at once:

• They admit they have 4 Pink Line stations. It isn't like Roseland.
• Heck,. I remember when the 58 bus went to 25th and Laramie in Cicero, so saying Pulaski means the activists don't go back very far.
• Since 58 did not used to be connected to 157, whomever is asking for a privilege not previously granted for a one seat ride. She didn't say where she lived, but she can take the 18 bus to 157 or take the Pink Line if the implication is Ogden and Kedzie.

Now what does make sense (and in effect meets our community guideline):

But, Hudson explained, "[the CTA needs] to see the need for it. They look at the ridership amounts and the number of people calling 311 and the alderman's office. So my question for you is: What's new on Ogden or in a two-block radius?" Offering that information to the CTA, she explained, could help build the case for extending the bus line.

Attendees noted that since 2008, the neighborhood has seen the opening of a new charter school and the North Lawndale Christian Fitness Center, a large complex at 3950 W. Ogden that includes a cafe and meeting rooms. New events in Douglas Park like Riot Fest, the West Side Music Fest, and NLCCC's first arts festival, which debuts in a few weeks, would also spur more Ogden bus ridership, they said

So, in that sense they are doing their homework. Still the question would be whether the Pink Line and 21 bus meet the need. It isn't like the 35 on West 31st, where there was no crosstown service between 26th and the river.

 

[geneking7320]

The article mentioned the former routing of the 16th-18th bus [route 18]. Does anyone remember changes to the route (other than the Halsted and Roosevelt re-routing to Michigan Avenue?

[strictures]

On 7/24/2016 at 6:48 PM, MetroShadow said:

Backup facts and explain your positions. If making a statement of fact, always provide supporting evidence. For opinions or suggestions, always provide justification for your position. For example, do not suggest changes to CTA routes or operations without providing reasonable justification.

Move the 96 off of Lunt to Pratt. The routing would be: Pratt east to Clark, north on Clark to Morse, east on Morse to the Red Line, where the layover would be, then east on Morse to Sheridan, south on Sheridan to Pratt & then west to either the old turnaround on Pratt east of Kedzie or onto Lincolnwood Town Center & return.

The sole reason the 96 runs on Lunt, is that until 1979, Pratt was exactly 16 feet wide from Seeley to Western, which made it too narrow for standard buses to pass each other & CTA decided they didn't want to buy additional narrow buses like the ones that were used on Lake St. Lunt is just a side street that's one way westbound from Sheridan to Clark & then with parking banned on one side of the street from Ravenswood to California.

[Busjack]

7 hours ago, strictures said:

Move the 96 off of Lunt to Pratt

Makes sense, but the question is whether there will be a little old lady backlash on Lunt.

[andrethebusman]

10 hours ago, geneking7320 said:

The article mentioned the former routing of the 16th-18th bus [route 18]. Does anyone remember changes to the route (other than the Halsted and Roosevelt re-routing to Michigan Avenue?

16th-18th is one of the most stable routes in the city. Between 16th/Cicero and 18th/Halsted it has been on its current route since 1948. West end saw a short-term (9 month) extension via Cicero-Cermak to 47th Avenue 12/22/02 to 08/31/03, east end saw a bunch of minor stuff since 1970's. Initially east end was via 18th to Prairie-Cullerton-Indiana loop, then when Prairie was closed off 8/10/77 and Glessner House was moved there via 18th-Calumet-Cullerton-Indiana, then 6/18/78 loop reversed via Michigan-Cullerton-Calumet-18th, then 12/22/02 via 18th-Canal-Cermak to Indiana-18th-Michigan loop, then 12/28/08 current routing via 18th-Halsted-Roosevelt to Michigan-11th-Wabash loop.

In streetcar days route was from Kenton via 16th-Kedzie-Roosevelt-Damen-14th-Canal-Roosevelt to Wabash as 1th-16th, with 18th being separate route from Blue Island via Leavitt and 18th to State.

[andrethebusman]

9 hours ago, strictures said:

Move the 96 off of Lunt to Pratt. The routing would be: Pratt east to Clark, north on Clark to Morse, east on Morse to the Red Line, where the layover would be, then east on Morse to Sheridan, south on Sheridan to Pratt & then west to either the old turnaround on Pratt east of Kedzie or onto Lincolnwood Town Center & return.

The sole reason the 96 runs on Lunt, is that until 1979, Pratt was exactly 16 feet wide from Seeley to Western, which made it too narrow for standard buses to pass each other & CTA decided they didn't want to buy additional narrow buses like the ones that were used on Lake St. Lunt is just a side street that's one way westbound from Sheridan to Clark & then with parking banned on one side of the street from Ravenswood to California.

Lunt has had bus service since June 2nd, 1925, a time when there was no on-street parking. One reason the original bus was on Lunt was that there was no other east-west service of any kind in the area to speak of, as the streetcar on Devon west of Western wasn't opened until December 1925. Motor Coach also started the Howard-Ashland route to Howard and Ridge the same day, both feeding the Sheridan bus at Devon and Broadway. At the time having a feeder bus on Lunt meant the shortest walk for anybody living in that area west of Clark who wanted to take CMC on Sheridan to downtown. Made eminent sense at the time. CTA made several attempts to move route to Pratt starting in the 1960's, but people on Pratt did not want buses on their street, and people on Lunt did not want to lose their buses. So nothing happened. This was also involved with the plans since the 1930's to build a bridge at Pratt across the North Shore Channel, which was also squashed by the NIMBY's.

[Busjack]

15 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

18th-Calumet-Cullerton-Indiana

 

15 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

current routing via 18th-Halsted-Roosevelt to Michigan-11th-Wabash loop.

You would think people would prefer the current route to the old one that connected with nothing on the east end (certainly not the Red, Green and Orange lines, nor the South Loop shopping district).

[andrethebusman]

1 minute ago, Busjack said:

 

You would think people would prefer the current route to the old one that connected with nothing on the east end (certainly not the Red, Green and Orange lines, nor the South Loop shopping district).

I have no doubt riding on#18 has increased since it was rerouted to Roosevelt/Michigan. In 1948, running to 18th/Calumet made sense as that was a very dense industrial area, with lots of rush hour riding. But ALL that industry is now gone, replaced by upscale housing, whose inhabitants have no worldly reason to go west from there. Also, until 1949 there was an L station at 18th/State, and to this day the bus connects with the Douglas L at 18th/Paulina, though from what I can see, most business at that station is walk-in.

[busfan2847]

11 hours ago, Busjack said:

Several things hit me at once:

• They admit they have 4 Pink Line stations. It isn't like Roseland.
• Heck,. I remember when the 58 bus went to 25th and Laramie in Cicero, so saying Pulaski means the activists don't go back very far.
• Since 58 did not used to be connected to 157, whomever is asking for a privilege not previously granted for a one seat ride. She didn't say where she lived, but she can take the 18 bus to 157 or take the Pink Line if the implication is Ogden and Kedzie.

Now what does make sense (and in effect meets our community guideline):

But, Hudson explained, "[the CTA needs] to see the need for it. They look at the ridership amounts and the number of people calling 311 and the alderman's office. So my question for you is: What's new on Ogden or in a two-block radius?" Offering that information to the CTA, she explained, could help build the case for extending the bus line.

Attendees noted that since 2008, the neighborhood has seen the opening of a new charter school and the North Lawndale Christian Fitness Center, a large complex at 3950 W. Ogden that includes a cafe and meeting rooms. New events in Douglas Park like Riot Fest, the West Side Music Fest, and NLCCC's first arts festival, which debuts in a few weeks, would also spur more Ogden bus ridership, they said

So, in that sense they are doing their homework. Still the question would be whether the Pink Line and 21 bus meet the need. It isn't like the 35 on West 31st, where there was no crosstown service between 26th and the river.

 

The 58 Ogden bus was withdrawn 9/13/1981 and merged with the 37 which became Sedgwick-Ogden running on Ogden from Western as far west as Pulaski. It is this routing they are asking to be restored. 37 evening and weekend service was withdrawn 1/3/82 and was further reduced to rush hour only from 4/26/98  South terminus moved to Pulaski Pink Line Station 4/26/2004. The 37 was split on 6/19/2006 the southern part becoming the 38  Taylor-Ogden route, still running to Pulaski M-F RH. When the daytime service was restored from 6/16/2008 service was cut back from Pulaski to Ogden/ California (Mt Sinai Hospital). From 9/6/2009 38 withdrawn and and replaced by extended 157 Streeterville/ Taylor.

So strictly speaking 58 and current 157 were historically linked when the 157 routing west of downtown was the 37 and later 38. They are not asking for a one seat ride that has never existed but actually one that did exist from 9/13/1981 until 6/16/2008, originally 7 days, then 5 days, then rush hour only!

[strictures]

28 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

This was also involved with the plans since the 1930's to build a bridge at Pratt across the North Shore Channel, which was also squashed by the NIMBY's.

It's irrelevant when Lunt first got bus service, it got it solely because Pratt was too narrow for buses until 1979. Stop ignoring the elephant, which was the Edgewater Golf Club, which fought condemnation of a strip of land to widen Pratt.

The Pratt bridge hasn't been squashed by NIMBYs, it's been killed by Lincolnwood, which doesn't want it.

At first, Lincolnwood said they would have to widen Pratt to four paved lanes if the bridge was built, it was two paved lanes & gravel parking strips then. The Lincolnwood went & paved Pratt to four paved lanes. Because of Lincolnwood's obstructionism, Devon & Touhy are traffic nightmares! Eventually, the bridge will be built, but probably not in our lifetimes.

[Busjack]

26 minutes ago, strictures said:

The Pratt bridge hasn't been squashed by NIMBYs, it's been killed by Lincolnwood, which doesn't want it.

This is one of those that not all NIMBYs are 50th Ward aldermen. However, Andre did not repeat his incorrect assertion last time that the 50th Ward alderman killed it.

If once wants to get into historically irrelevancies, Dominick's no longer has to run the shuttle between its former Pratt and Kedzie location to Lincolnwood, because Cermak Market unloaded the McCormick Blvd. location. Apparently, like many ethnic markets, too close to Mariano's.*

Because of stuff like that, the bridge won't be built. I don't think there is a need for a shortcut to Grossinger Autoplex.

Maybe more relevant, the 96 excursion into the SE Skokie Industrial Park didn't last long.

_________

*Mariano's lot was once posted for Garden Fresh Market, which obviously is not going there now.

 

[Busjack]

49 minutes ago, busfan2847 said:

So strictly speaking 58 and current 157 were historically linked when the 157 routing west of downtown was the 37 and later 38.

But you had to transfer from a 37 to a 157 somewhere, so not a one seat ride.

The only thing I noted was that when one had to go to Juvenile Court from downtown,there was the apparently superfluous choice of 58 Ogden Randolph*, or 37 to Taylor and Western. Now only 157.

*Randolph west of Halsted became useless for transit when Daley installed all the planters for the 1996 convention.

[jajuan]

8 hours ago, Busjack said:

But you had to transfer from a 37 to a 157 somewhere, so not a one seat ride.

That's correct. I read that article myself last night during a short ride on the Red Line. The lady's stated destination in that article is doctor's appointments at Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Streeterville. And as you noted before busfan2847's response, by the time that section of bus service on Ogden was merged with the 157 to form the current 157 Streeterville/Taylor route it was already truncated to Ogden/California. Busfan, the buses never ran to Pulaski/Ogden or the Pulaski Pink Line station as part of the 157. So you were correct Busjack in your original statement that the lady was asking for a one seat ride that never existed in the current bus service structure in that part of town. 

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, jajuan said:

Strictures, the buses never ran to Pulaski/Ogden or the Pulaski Pink Line station as part of the 157.

Actually, that seems to be  @busfan2847's post. Strictures was only commenting on #96.

[jajuan]

5 hours ago, Busjack said:

Actually, that seems to be  @busfan2847's post. Strictures was only commenting on #96.

Oops. That it is. Ad corrected. 

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, strictures said:

It's irrelevant when Lunt first got bus service,

To amplify a point Strictures made, the 120 year old history of a route is irrelevant for this purpose except to explain why a route is somewhere or not somewhere today (like why 155A or Ogden west of Mt. Sinai isn't there or 96 is on Lunt vs. Pratt).

Until the 1990s, I thought "what geniuses the planners must have been that most bus routes are where they always were," except for when CTA basically eliminated overlaps between inherited CMC and CSL routes in 1973. For instance, until then, there were both the 58 Ogden Randolph and 136 Douglas (generally on Ogden) buses; 136 was cut.

All the restructurings starting about 2000, and now on their second or third iterations, show that my prior belief was wrong. Basically, then, for such purposes as the N. Lawndale article, the discussions can be limited to the last relevant cut (although jajuan's comment indicates there might be some difficulty in identifying it).

[andrethebusman]

before WW2 there was a basic differentiation between streetcar riders and bus riders, which is why there were so many routes on the west side. The "upper classes" - basically those that worked in office and clerical jobs downtown, preferred the CMC buses on Washington. Jackson, Ogden, while the "lower classes" such as sales people, maintenance people, restaurant help, usually rode the (cheaper) streetcars. CMC also ran on what were then the "better" streets where rents were higher and the more affluent lived. (Remember, even middle-management folks rarely had more than one car per family, and even then the car tended to be for "special occasions" rather than daily commuting, especially to downtown.) The L was seen by many as quite inferior at the lime, as it was old, raggedy, and pitifully slow for the most park, particularly on Lake St. Remember also, there was a lot less Sunday riding than now. People tended to stay home Sundays after they got back from church, or at least stay in the neighborhood. By the 1970's, the area had gone to hell, most of the resident population was either in low-end jobs or unemployed, and there was way too much service.

 

[Busjack]

49 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

before WW2 there was a basic differentiation between streetcar riders and bus riders,

As strictures and I noted above, not relevant to this topic.

For instance, in the days after the Sandy Hook Massacre, there became a difference between bus riders and Uber riders. For instance, Uber riders all have smartphones.

49 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

By the 1970's, the area had gone to hell, most of the resident population was either in low-end jobs or unemployed, and there was way too much service.

Well, that's relevant. The question is whether today, the west side (west of Western; relevant to the N. Lawndale article) or the south side (excluding around 35th and North Kenwood) have gained enough population to justify increased transit service? Compared to the justi4fications for beefing up Brown Line service, no.