#4000 Arrives

[artthouwill]

The first time I saw a 4000, I thought the same thing. However, I figured out that it is

an optical illusion, and here is why. On the 4000's the last two windows in front of the

accordian are shorter, as if they were part of the rear high floor area. This gives the

front part of the bus the appearance that it is shorter, with the longer end in the rear.

However, when you look at the number of total windows, and compare that with a NABI,

then look at the bus again, you will see that it is the same size front and back.

I actually was looking at the area from front tire to center tire, and the distance between the two still seem to be different when comparing the NABIs to the New Flyers. Does anyone have specs that would validate or dispel that notion?

[busfan]

4000's another lemon ?

Seems they are having problems already with the 4000's at 103rd. Tons of electrical problems and 2 with head gasket problems with the diesel engine.

[cta 5555]

I have seen alot of 4000s dead on the road so far.

[Guest]

I have seen alot of 4000s dead on the road so far.

CTA, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

[MVTArider]

I have seen alot of 4000s dead on the road so far.

CTA just can't win with artics can they :rolleyes:

[artthouwill]

4000's another lemon ?

Seems they are having problems already with the 4000's at 103rd. Tons of electrical problems and 2 with head gasket problems with the gas engine.

I haven't noticed, but you seem to single out 103rd. There are 2 other garages with 4000s and I guess they are not having problems. So maybe it is a 103rd problem and not a NF problem.

[busfan]

Not sure about the other garages. I just heard about the 103rd buses. Very few are making it on the street. Most are "hold ins" waiting for the New Flyer Rep. to come out and look at the problems.

[Busjack]

Not sure about the other garages. I just heard about the 103rd buses. Very few are making it on the street. Most are "hold ins" waiting for the New Flyer Rep. to come out and look at the problems.

Unless someone else is using your sign-in, you complained about Kedzie 12 days ago. So what's the story?

[BusHunter]

North Park should have up to #4037 odd's In fact it was on the #147 last night. Also #4041 is at NP. 103rd should have up to #4038 evens.

[sw4400]

4000's another lemon ?

Seems they are having problems already with the 4000's at 103rd. Tons of electrical problems and 2 with head gasket problems with the gas engine.

Diesel/Electric Hybrid Engine. I can't remember the last time the CTA used Gasoline Engines... probably pre-1960's?

As far as being lemons, perhaps they are, perhaps not. I haven't seen no technical service bulletins on the New Flyer DE60LF's. But I do have reservations on the DE's. The technology is fairly new, and we only had the 800's(same engine types as our #4000's) a short time. IMO, hybrids should be tested more, especially since the CTA is ordering up to 900* more possibly. That plus the 150 makes 1,050* Articulated Hybrids. Add the 20 40' Hybrids, and you got 1,070* Hybrid buses that will probably make up close to/ if not over 75% of the fleet. Not good if these buses are starting to crap out at less than a year old.

*=Presuming the CTA exercises all DE60LF options.

[Busjack]

Not good if these buses are starting to crap out at less than a year old.

As my prior post indicates, I believe that someone is disparaging the buses, at least without direct information, if not to perpetrate an internet hoax.

If nothing else, I now believe we need better corroboration and substantiation before coming to conclusions.

[busfan]

Well considering I myself am a CTA Mechanic who retired December 1st I feel that I know what Im talking about.

[Guest]

CTA just can't win with artics can they

CTA can win with its bus or rail fleet if they had more competent management, people who really know transit and what kind of technology is out there and how it would benefit the riding public. But in my opinion and I think many on this blog will agree with me on this! they just go for the lowest priced equipment without regard as to the effectiveness, quality and safety of the equipment they purchase. We dont need to look any further than its history. Look at the blunders lately!

[Busjack]

CTA can win with its bus or rail fleet if they had more competent management, people who really know transit and what kind of technology is out there and how it would benefit the riding public. But in my opinion and I think many on this blog will agree with me on this! they just go for the lowest priced equipment without regard as to the effectiveness, quality and safety of the equipment they purchase. We dont need to look any further than its history. Look at the blunders lately!

I don't know about that, especially with the last order. Remember, they took Seattle's options. Those buses have been running there since 2005 (over three years), so if there are any bugs, they should have been worked out by now.

Also, the powertrain is similar to those in the 800s, and there supposedly wasn't any trouble with them.

There are the YouTubes with the door problems, but if anything could be said about that, it was that CTA might have made a mistake taking more expensive technology from a local supplier.

Also, when it comes to somewhat domestically manufactured articulated buses, the only choices are NF and NABI. Did you want CTA to be like LA and make a sole source spec. for NABI?* I know that there are those of you still wishing that MAN came back into the U.S. market, but so far.... Also, the Mercedes bus isn't in the U.S. market, yet.

Same with the rail fleet--there basically is only Alstom and Bombardier. Now, CTA management did mess up when it sent out an RFP for DC motors, which the manufacturers said were obsolete, and on which they would not bid, but nothing has been substantiated with regard to the AC ones on order. And at a reported $1.4 million per car, one can't say that CTA is going for the lowest price equipment.

Now with respect to buying the lowest price equipment, Pace has admitted that it always has, as more recently corroborated by its board minutes that it couldn't justify buying hybrids. Apparently, the CTA can.

Again, I caution coming to conclusions on the basis of "Im [sic] hearing" unless something is substantiated.

____

*Remember, NABI, while still a Hungarian company, announced that it was the apparent low bidder on the 1000s. Somehow, a year later, New Flyer got the contract.

[Busjack]

Well considering I myself am a CTA Mechanic who retired December 1st I feel that I know what Im talking about.

So how do you explain the discrepancy between these two posts?

It's not a big deal. I went to see my neighbor who works at Kedzie garage Wednesday and walked right in and sat on the bus with him and we talked for about 15 minutes. ... Now Im hearing that they are having a lot of problems with starters going out on the New Flyers. They are getting then New Flyer Hybrids and they are coming in with all sorts of engine code lights lit up on the dash like a christmas tree. ...

Not sure about the other garages. I just heard about the 103rd buses. Very few are making it on the street. Most are "hold ins" waiting for the New Flyer Rep. to come out and look at the problems.

Now, if you don't understand what I mean by discrepancy, how can you say you heard about Kedzie buses, and then say "Not sure about the other garages. I just heard about the 103rd buses."?

Also, note that both are based on "Im [sic] hearing" or "I just heard." No firsthand knowledge.

[busfan]

So how do you explain the discrepancy between these two posts?

Now, if you don't understand what I mean by discrepancy, how can you say you heard about Kedzie buses, and then say "Not sure about the other garages. I just heard about the 103rd buses."?

Also, note that both are based on "Im [sic] hearing" or "I just heard." No firsthand knowledge.

1st I never worked at Kedzie so thats why I say I walked right in. Nobody new me and I was able to walk right in. Everyone is supposed to wear vests in the garages. As long as I worked there the vendors never had to. We complained to managers about them not wearing vests and following rules on CTA property and nothing was ever said to the vendors. But WE could get written up for not wearing a vest.

The starters going out are on the New Flyer 1000 series short buses.

[jajuan]

1st I never worked at Kedzie so thats why I say I walked right in. Nobody new me and I was able to walk right in. Everyone is supposed to wear vests in the garages. As long as I worked there the vendors never had to. We complained to managers about them not wearing vests and following rules on CTA property and nothing was ever said to the vendors. But WE could get written up for not wearing a vest.

The starters going out are on the New Flyer 1000 series short buses.

As far as the starters go, if that were true in any way, apparently they're getting them fixed really fast because routes I take from Kedzie, a lot of which are NF heavy, seem to have no shortage of buses.

[Busjack]

1st I never worked at Kedzie so thats why I say I walked right in. Nobody new me and I was able to walk right in. Everyone is supposed to wear vests in the garages. As long as I worked there the vendors never had to. We complained to managers about them not wearing vests and following rules on CTA property and nothing was ever said to the vendors. But WE could get written up for not wearing a vest.

The starters going out are on the New Flyer 1000 series short buses.

Man, you totally missed the point. What about the statement "They are getting then New Flyer Hybrids and they are coming in with all sorts of engine code lights lit up on the dash like a christmas tree. ..."

What is the antecedent to they? Isn't it Kedzie?

That is the discrepancy, with the statement "Not sure about the other garages. I just heard about the 103rd buses." Don't try to confuse the issue.

[busfan]

I really dont understand what is so complicted about my posts. It's not Brain Surgery. The New Flyer Hybrids coming in at 103rd have several codes and lights poping up on the dash. Im sure some operators from 103rd posting here would confirm that. Mechanics have been reporting problems with the "trac-lock" lights coming on for no reason.

To replace a starter on a 1000 New Flyer is about an hour job. It wouldnt take a day or 2 to replace the starter that it would cause the bus to not be on the street. When a servicer shuts the bus off at the fuel island, or the operator parks the bus in the bays and the bus dont start when the servicer goes to start it, its taken to the back and in 10 minutes the Mechanic can tell if its the starter or not and it takes about an hour to replace.

I had 26 years as a CTA Mechanic, I still think Im qualified to know what Im talking about.

What people dont realize is that CTA purchases the buses and they keep coming. If a problem develops and there is an issue with a bus such as shocks breaking, CTA cannot stop the order. Usually by the time a problem is noticed in a week or 2 of being on the street, they have already received probably 30 buses at a garage. They got most of the Nabi's in and then the cracked frames started showing up on them. It's just the way it works. CTA takes a good bus, orders that bus, but makes several "retrofits" to the original bus, and then the problems begin. They dont ask the Mechanics or anyone who works on buses what they think and what would be easy to work on or anything. They let someone behind a desk look at pictures of buses and then place orders.

[jajuan]

I really dont understand what is so complicted about my posts. It's not Brain Surgery. The New Flyer Hybrids coming in at 103rd have several codes and lights poping up on the dash. Im sure some operators from 103rd posting here would confirm that. Mechanics have been reporting problems with the "trac-lock" lights coming on for no reason.

To replace a starter on a 1000 New Flyer is about an hour job. It wouldnt take a day or 2 to replace the starter that it would cause the bus to not be on the street. When a servicer shuts the bus off at the fuel island, or the operator parks the bus in the bays and the bus dont start when the servicer goes to start it, its taken to the back and in 10 minutes the Mechanic can tell if its the starter or not and it takes about an hour to replace.

I had 26 years as a CTA Mechanic, I still think Im qualified to know what Im talking about.

What people dont realize is that CTA purchases the buses and they keep coming. If a problem develops and there is an issue with a bus such as shocks breaking, CTA cannot stop the order. Usually by the time a problem is noticed in a week or 2 of being on the street, they have already received probably 30 buses at a garage. They got most of the Nabi's in and then the cracked frames started showing up on them. It's just the way it works. CTA takes a good bus, orders that bus, but makes several "retrofits" to the original bus, and then the problems begin. They dont ask the Mechanics or anyone who works on buses what they think and what would be easy to work on or anything. They let someone behind a desk look at pictures of buses and then place orders.

No one questioned your qualifications just your motivation behind a lot of your posts because for every counter to a post you always seem to have something else to throw out to cast who were in effect your bosses in a bad light. I see you keep throwing out the "bad" shocks example, yet you still don't acknowledge that that could possibly have more to do with Chicago's crappy streets, especially with the pothole problem being exacerbated by winter being more brutal than usual this time around and last winter, than with the manufacture of the bus. There are potholes out there that can be called craters. I have plenty of friends who own topnotch cars and had to have shocks replaced more times than they care to count. So your buses coming in with bad shocks theory doesn't completely hold when you have that detail to consider. One thing they teach us engineers is that when a machine part fails look into all possibilities of that failure before asserting a conclusion about the nature of that falilure.

[Busjack]

I really dont understand what is so complicted about my posts. It's not Brain Surgery.

Neither are mine. Let's put it simply then:

Why did you say you heard about problems with 4000s at Kedzie, then claim to have heard about problems at 103-BUT NOT ANY OTHER GARAGE--which must include Kedzie?

It seems like you can't explain yourself out of that hole.

For that matter, why don't you respond to sw's post that CTA hasn't had a gas bus since the 1950s? As a mechanic with 26 years service, you should know what a diesel engine is.

[Zol87]

I rode a 4000 series Flyer on the 147 this morning. The ride was so smooth heading down Lake Shore Drive compared to the old NABI's. I couldn't feel the road bumps and the engine was so quiet. These are the perfect buses for Lakefront routes. :)

[BusHunter]

I really don't see nothing wrong with the #4000's at NP. Kedzie still has problems with there back doors, just yesterday #4008 had yet another problem. A back door opening and staying open fully, stuck in that position. The operator must have went nuts, he kept having to get up from his seat and use the manual overide. He had a full standing load and couldn't really tell everyone to use the front doors yet. His doors were stuck four out of 5 consecutive openings on his bus. 3 times they were stuck and once they repeated. Nice bus!! At least it still had it's Xmas decorations. On the other hand I haven't really seen a problem with NP and 103rd doors. Sometimes it may not be so hot to get the first set of buses off an order until the kinks get worked out. A new thing I've seen lately on post #4037 buses is that the yellow sticker telling people to touch here to exit door (rear) has now been shifted lower on the door supposedly to have a better response on opening the doors.

[geneking7320]

Speaking of back doors, I finally rode a 4000 on #147 from the Howard terminal to Superior and Michigan.

The rear doors seemed much easier to open than those on the NABIs. As others have said the ride on Lake Shore Drive was also smoother than the NABIs. I still would prefer the doors be fully opened by the driver but that is a rant for another time.

Gene King :)

[trainman8119]

Walking down State Street today, I caught a glimpse of 4013 headed north on the

146 route. As it went by, I noticed a pretty good crease on the rear end, underneath

the red stripe and above the rear bumper. I took a pic, but it is a little hard to see.

Gotta love all the damage on the back ends of the artics.