Whats is left for 1993 Orion 1s from Pace

[BusExpert32]

Webwatch says that 2282 is on that run today, which tends to disprove your theory that the IBS is not on or not reporting from an Orion I.

Today, the run was a ghost bus, but I didn't have a chance to see it, so I can't prove anything. However, since this run is usually covered by a bus driver who always pulls out an Orion I, I would guess that there may be Orion Is at North Shore that have a dysfunctional IBS.

[trainman8119]

As info -

I spotted 2350 heading north on Skokie Rd leaving Old Orchard on Route 422 (run 303) today about 2:00.

Looked pretty good for an old bus, definitely out of the bus wash, anyway. As I watched it in my rear view, I couldn't help but think that it was possible that was the last Orion I I would see in service. My driving career kind of flashed in my head at that point.

[ibebobo]

As info -

I spotted 2350 heading north on Skokie Rd leaving Old Orchard on Route 422 (run 303) today about 2:00.

Looked pretty good for an old bus, definitely out of the bus wash, anyway. As I watched it in my rear view, I couldn't help but think that it was possible that was the last Orion I I would see in service. My driving career kind of flashed in my head at that point.

Go drive around Ravinia before or after any of their shows. You'll see plenty of them.

[BusExpert32]

As info -

I spotted 2350 heading north on Skokie Rd leaving Old Orchard on Route 422 (run 303) today about 2:00.

Looked pretty good for an old bus, definitely out of the bus wash, anyway. As I watched it in my rear view, I couldn't help but think that it was possible that was the last Orion I I would see in service. My driving career kind of flashed in my head at that point.

I checked that run today on Webwatch, and it was a ghost bus. Thanks for letting us know it was 2350.

[Railwaymodeler]

Bus 2334 was on the 565 Grand Ave. route today. Did not show up on Web Watch. The other Grand bus showed as 2421.

Saw 2337 at the Washington Sheridan pulse point. There was one more Orion, but I did not get to see the unit number. First guess would be 2368, as it usually runs better than the other Orions, and the A/C generally is better than other Orions too.

[rotjohns]

Bus 2334 was on the 565 Grand Ave. route today. Did not show up on Web Watch. The other Grand bus showed as 2421.

Saw 2337 at the Washington Sheridan pulse point. There was one more Orion, but I did not get to see the unit number. First guess would be 2368, as it usually runs better than the other Orions, and the A/C generally is better than other Orions too.

It sounds to me as if they might have taken the Webwatch feature off of the Orions. That's why there are so many ghost buses out there. Technology has probably passed the time of the 1993s. But then again, route 422 is a North Shore route and that garage seems to be where some of the ghost buses originate. So it's probably a combination of both.

I'll be at Ravinia this weekend for the Anita Baker concert. I'll report on what Orions I see while up there.

[Busjack]

It sounds to me as if they might have taken the Webwatch feature off of the Orions. That's why there are so many ghost buses out there. Technology has probably passed the time of the 1993s. But then again, route 422 is a North Shore route and that garage seems to be where some of the ghost buses originate. So it's probably a combination of both.

I'll be at Ravinia this weekend for the Anita Baker concert. I'll report on what Orions I see while up there.

As I indicated before, it appears to be only coincidence. It would take someone with a smartphone on the street corner, acting as a street supervisor to verify that assumption. Or at least looking at Webwatch in Waukegan at about 3:20 and not seeing about 20 additional buses, which except for 569, will require more looking, as the Brookside school trips now seem to be allocated as branches of the various lines instead of various lines becoming 566. Looks like school is back in session there.

[Busjack]

With regard to the school trip angle, Webwatch indicates the predicted bunch up on 569-Lewis, but seems like more 6600s than before, as well as 2401, 2421 and various 35 foot 2400s. However, 2332 shows up in service, so I doubt the "Orions don't have IBS" angle.

I suppose that RailwayModeler can give us the view from the street.

Also, at 3:30, NS seems to have a full complement of buses out, including heading to New Trier West, and no Orions.

I sorta have the feeling that the Orions are down to emergency spares.

[rotjohns]

So at Ravinia last night, because it was my first time, we were forced to take the Pace shuttle buses from North Shore hospital. Here's what I saw and what I ended up riding on:

8923 - Bus I rode going to Ravinia. This bus is in GREAT condition. Rode very smoothly and AC even worked.

2314 - Bus I rode going back to the hospital. This bus ran VERY slow and the tranny to me didn't want to always shift. Probably should be gone after this year.

Other buses I saw:

8920

2277

2278

2290 - One of 5750s favorite buses

2372

2128

2330

2323

2291

2368 - Yes, THAT 2368. I knew something was up because when I saw this bus from a distance, the AM/PM advertisement was on its side so I knew this was a current active bus. Wonder why it was running over there that weekend and not the other 2330s from Waukegan. Judging by the way it sounded, it definitely is one of Pace's better running Orions that's still active.

There might have been others, if there were, I missed them. This was my first time at Ravinia and I thought it was interesting that they had buses lined up going back, which allowed me to see them as they were leaving.

[Guest]

So at Ravinia last night, because it was my first time, we were forced to take the Pace shuttle buses from North Shore hospital. Here's what I saw and what I ended up riding on:

8923 - Bus I rode going to Ravinia. This bus is in GREAT condition. Rode very smoothly and AC even worked.

2314 - Bus I rode going back to the hospital. This bus ran VERY slow and the tranny to me didn't want to always shift. Probably should be gone after this year.

Other buses I saw:

8920

2277

2278

2290 - One of 5750s favorite buses

2372

2128

2330

2323

2291

2368 - Yes, THAT 2368. I knew something was up because when I saw this bus from a distance, the AM/PM advertisement was on its side so I knew this was a current active bus. Wonder why it was running over there that weekend and not the other 2330s from Waukegan. Judging by the way it sounded, it definitely is one of Pace's better running Orions that's still active.

There might have been others, if there were, I missed them. This was my first time at Ravinia and I thought it was interesting that they had buses lined up going back, which allowed me to see them as they were leaving.

Well thank you for the recognition! Orion #2290 was a very good bus during the time we had it at Academy, #2372 was another one of our buses also, #2330 was one of our Academy buses I recall for a brief time. We had it for only a couple of months then it got shipped out.

[Busjack]

So at Ravinia last night, because it was my first time, we were forced to take the Pace shuttle buses from North Shore hospital. Here's what I saw and what I ended up riding on:

....

There might have been others, if there were, I missed them. This was my first time at Ravinia and I thought it was interesting that they had buses lined up going back, which allowed me to see them as they were leaving.

2272 and 2274 are usually up there (at least the last time I looked). Also a few more 8900s (8914 and 8923 if my memory doesn't escape me, for a couple).

On 5750's point, I think 2330 ended up being a NS bus for a while.

[Railwaymodeler]

2314 - Bus I rode going back to the hospital. This bus ran VERY slow and the tranny to me didn't want to always shift. Probably should be gone after this year.

Ex-North Division bus. Ran fairly poor here too.

2368 - Yes, THAT 2368. I knew something was up because when I saw this bus from a distance, the AM/PM advertisement was on its side so I knew this was a current active bus. Wonder why it was running over there that weekend and not the other 2330s from Waukegan. Judging by the way it sounded, it definitely is one of Pace's better running Orions that's still active.

That it is. I saw it out on the road the other day myself. Is fairly quick on the acceleration. In fact, was out riding with a friend that drives for North. He was bragging about what a great bus it is, and how he would be the first bus in the lineup at Washington/Sheridan.

I kept telling him not to bet on that. He was extra board at the time, so was likely not aware that his route would be very heavy soon. Ended up being the LAST bus in the lineup! Won a $5 bet that way!

Really, though, it did pretty well for the load he had. If it were any other Orion, he would have had to contact dispatch through the IBS and have them send a "Hold the grace" message to all other buses. Got in a minute before scheduled pull time.

[2200SeriesFan]

I always really liked the Orion I buses, though it seems I rarely ever see them in service anymore except when I'm in the Ravinia area just before one of their concert begins, and it's running as some sort of shuttle bus from a nearby parking lot to Ravinia(and which I did notice, when I was very briefly in that area summer 2011). What Pace garages still have those 2200/2300 Orions anymore?

I thought the North Shore/Evanston garage had a handful left, and ditto with maybe also the one in Waukegan, but I'm not sure. They never seem to infrequently run on north suburban Cook County routes anymore, the way they used to. Heck, I'm not even sure if they still show up infrequently on route #213 Green Bay Rd., like they used to as recently as a year or 2 ago.

[Busjack]

I always really liked the Orion I buses, though it seems I rarely ever see them in service anymore except when I'm in the Ravinia area just before one of their concert begins, and it's running as some sort of shuttle bus from a nearby parking lot to Ravinia(and which I did notice, when I was very briefly in that area summer 2011). What Pace garages still have those 2200/2300 Orions anymore?

I thought the North Shore/Evanston garage had a handful left, and ditto with maybe also the one in Waukegan, but I'm not sure. They never seem to infrequently run on north suburban Cook County routes anymore, the way they used to. Heck, I'm not even sure if they still show up infrequently on route #213 Green Bay Rd., like they used to as recently as a year or 2 ago.

Mostly on school runs at this point. Webwatch indicates a few in Waukegan about 3:15 p.m., and BusExpert tracked one 422 run where they still show up. But it is more far and few between than it used to be.

[jajuan]

To add to that in regards to the 213, just about all of what I see on that route are NABI 6600 series buses.

[Railwaymodeler]

2337 showed up on WebBotch, err, WebWatch, a couple days ago. Was over at a friends house helping with her computer issue. As long as I wanted to test out if it could go online properly now, as I had just removed a difficult malware program, I showed her WebWatch. Her grand daughter was on a Pace bus, and I explained to my friend that as long as she has the unit number and route, she can see where exactly her grand daughter's bus is.

The kid was on bus 2337, which did show up on WebWatch.

It is heresay right now, but one of my friends that drives at North Division told me recently that a mechanic was saying the 2400s will go before the Orions. The 2400s are 13 years old, with 2423 and a couple others being 14 now. While the Orions turn 20 in January 2013, the 2400s are easier to replace. The 6600s we are getting moved up here are pretty much a direct replacement for a 2400, while a standard floor 40' Orion is harder to directly replace.

I suppose time will tell, but I have a feeling we'll only have a couple Orions when the 2400s are gone anyway, unless some surprise moves to North happen.

[Busjack]

...

The kid was on bus 2337, which did show up on WebWatch.

It is heresay right now, but one of my friends that drives at North Division told me recently that a mechanic was saying the 2400s will go before the Orions. The 2400s are 13 years old, with 2423 and a couple others being 14 now. While the Orions turn 20 in January 2013, the 2400s are easier to replace. The 6600s we are getting moved up here are pretty much a direct replacement for a 2400, while a standard floor 40' Orion is harder to directly replace.

I suppose time will tell, but I have a feeling we'll only have a couple Orions when the 2400s are gone anyway, unless some surprise moves to North happen.

Might be the case in the short term. However, if the 2012 budget (after being adjusted for the 15 OTRs) is correct that Pace is getting 156 40 foot buses starting in about a month, I don't see much of either hanging around, although, as I indicated earlier, the first step (after getting rid of their 11 2400s) may be getting 6600s out of South.

[Railwaymodeler]

If any of the new 40' buses are standard floors, then maybe the Orions will be gone. As it is, the seated capacity of the 40' low floors, regardless of make, will be lower than a standard floor simply because of the wheelwells in front. Standee capacity is much lower too.

With the crowded school trippers, that makes a huge difference.

As far as I know, NABI is the only company to still offer a standard floor, the 416 model (Basically a restyled Ikarus product that Pace also had in the 1980s - the fare charts posted on the buses now show a 2200 series Ikarus, even!)

I doubt with the CTA 60-LFW fiasco, plus initial issues Pace had with the 2400s, they will return to NABI if not necessary. On the other hand, if no one else offers a standard floor, they may not have a choice if they find they really do need them.

[Busjack]

If any of the new 40' buses are standard floors, then maybe the Orions will be gone. As it is, the seated capacity of the 40' low floors, regardless of make, will be lower than a standard floor simply because of the wheelwells in front. Standee capacity is much lower too.

With the crowded school trippers, that makes a huge difference.

No, they are low floor Axess models. But you make a similar argument to why the last 8800s were on Touhy--lack of seats. However, that didn't stop Pace from scrapping them and replacing them with 6000 series Orion VIs, which much have the lowest seating capacity of any 40 foot bus.

As CTA has shown for the past 4 or so years, seating capacity means nothing.

For that matter, I don't know if the other collar county cities have school runs, but they have to get by with 30 foot buses.

As far as I know, NABI is the only company to still offer a standard floor, the 416 model (Basically a restyled Ikarus product that Pace also had in the 1980s - the fare charts posted on the buses now show a 2200 series Ikarus, even!)

I doubt with the CTA 60-LFW fiasco, plus initial issues Pace had with the 2400s, they will return to NABI if not necessary. On the other hand, if no one else offers a standard floor, they may not have a choice if they find they really do need them.

The Ikarus buses were all at West, although some that were not immediately scrapped went into contractor service on 696-699, until they got 6600s.

As far as Pace's purchasing, they are locked into the Eldorado contract for 40 foot diesel buses. However, with the announcement that South will be converted to CNG, we have to go back to the discussion about 18 months ago about NABI making a presentation in an attempt to sell Metro 45C CNG buses. It might not have had an effect then, but I bet two years later that it will. At least for South, that takes care of both the cost of fuel and the lack of capacity in low floor 40 foot buses by getting 45 foot ones. Doesn't do anything for Waukegan, though.

[Railwaymodeler]

I remember seeing an Ikarus in Rosemont once, years ago, and again at Six Flags Great America. The Six Flags bus was one of those shuttles from other parts of the suburbs. Not a North run.

I suppose time will tell what Pace does about replacing the last of the Orion Is. There's some other issues going on at North that may translate into funding issues. It is actually pretty disorganized up here, really.

I doubt North will get any new buses to replace the Orions, instead getting buses from other divisions as has been the case with the 6600s. At a guess, I would imagine what will replace the Orions here would be 40' NABIs. Currently we have only two 40' low floors: 2401 and 2421. At a guess we'll probably get the 6200 series 40' NABIs. I believe they were ordered around the same time as the 6600s.

The 6600s are pretty universally disliked by the North drivers, except for a couple of them. The brakes are overall much more touchy than the 2400s, and the retarder switch works different. With my back condition I tend to avoid them by watching Web Watch.

Capacity means something with the school trippers. Enough kids get left behind because of full buses, and that contract, I imagine, could be pulled. Last time Pace North went without a school trip contract, the 566 and 573 routes were cut. One of my buddies at the garage even made a now famous speech for keeping the 566 that ended with "All I'm saying, is give Pace a chance".

More than likely it will take additional equipment here, or possibly very clever realignment and rethinking of how school trippers work. I doubt the latter will happen though. Much of North Division is lacking in creative thinking.

[artthouwill]

No, they are low floor Axess models. But you make a similar argument to why the last 8800s were on Touhy--lack of seats. However, that didn't stop Pace from scrapping them and replacing them with 6000 series Orion VIs, which much have the lowest seating capacity of any 40 foot bus.

As CTA has shown for the past 4 or so years, seating capacity means nothing.

For that matter, I don't know if the other collar county cities have school runs, but they have to get by with 30 foot buses.

The Ikarus buses were all at West, although some that were not immediately scrapped went into contractor service on 696-699, until they got 6600s.

As far as Pace's purchasing, they are locked into the Eldorado contract for 40 foot diesel buses. However, with the announcement that South will be converted to CNG, we have to go back to the discussion about 18 months ago about NABI making a presentation in an attempt to sell Metro 45C CNG buses. It might not have had an effect then, but I bet two years later that it will. At least for South, that takes care of both the cost of fuel and the lack of capacity in low floor 40 foot buses by getting 45 foot ones. Doesn't do anything for Waukegan, though.

Will Pace convert the new arrivals to CNG Themselves or will they outsource the work? Might it have been simpler to order CNG from jump?

[Busjack]

Will Pace convert the new arrivals to CNG Themselves or will they outsource the work? Might it have been simpler to order CNG from jump?

As I indicated with regard to the Metro 45C sales pitch, they buy new buses. As the minutes say "The first group of

Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) buses is covered under this earmark [i.e. Illinois Jobs Now]." It would totally make no sense to have a bunch of diesel buses currently on the assembly line and then say that Pace is going to yank out the engines and compromise their structural integrity by putting fuel tanks on the roof.

In my mind, the only relevant question is whether the Axess buses go to South for 15 months and then are sent elsewhere, or South doesn't get new buses for another 15 months despite the promise that they would get this bunch?

Update: Maybe what got you confused is that the $12 million of Pace bond money is to convert the garage. The other sales presentation was for a CNG fueling station. It had nothing to do with the buses, which, as I noted above, is state money.

[Busjack]

I believe they were ordered around the same time as the 6600s.

They were delivered at exactly the same time, i.e. around 2003. There was a question about how many of each Pace was going to get, as the original announcement was 71 40 foot buses and 42 35 foot buses, but it turned out to be 99 and 84.

Update: In fact, Joliet got both types of buses (6249-6261, 6666-6677) pretty much all at the same time, replacing its 2090s and 2050s.

[Guest]

No, they are low floor Axess models. But you make a similar argument to why the last 8800s were on Touhy--lack of seats. However, that didn't stop Pace from scrapping them and replacing them with 6000 series Orion VIs, which much have the lowest seating capacity of any 40 foot bus.

As CTA has shown for the past 4 or so years, seating capacity means nothing.

For that matter, I don't know if the other collar county cities have school runs, but they have to get by with 30 foot buses.

The Ikarus buses were all at West, although some that were not immediately scrapped went into contractor service on 696-699, until they got 6600s.

As far as Pace's purchasing, they are locked into the Eldorado contract for 40 foot diesel buses. However, with the announcement that South will be converted to CNG, we have to go back to the discussion about 18 months ago about NABI making a presentation in an attempt to sell Metro 45C CNG buses. It might not have had an effect then, but I bet two years later that it will. At least for South, that takes care of both the cost of fuel and the lack of capacity in low floor 40 foot buses by getting 45 foot ones. Doesn't do anything for Waukegan, though.

When did the Ikarus buses operate in 696/699?

[busfan2847]

When did the Ikarus buses operate in 696/699?

Late 2006. I caught 2204 and 2211 on the 699 a number of times in October and November 2006.