New Artics Have Arrived!

[A. Badaraco]

Perhaps they can put perch seats in the joint like they tried out in Vancouver where two or three people can rest against the perch on either side. Found it to be a good alternative to seats on the Van Hool AG300.

[BusHunter]

If you had the experience of riding a NABI artic southbound on route 147 [before the repaving of Lake Shore Drive] you remember the artic joint area was quite noisy over bumps. The New Flyers don't have that problem. So my question is, why get rid of the 4 seats in the artic joint? Aren't CTA buses enough like cattle cars without removing more seats?

Not only have the 4 seats been removed at the artic joint, the entire bus has had the seating arrangement changed to longitudinal seating front to rear. The only forward facing seats are the two that are in front of the middle axle, one on each side. In front of the artic joint seating is pretty much the same. In back of it are 5 sideways facing seats on the left with 3 on the right. Passing the stairs, the left has 5 sideways facing seats along with the right with the stardard five seats on the engine. So I count about 9 seats less for these buses. (about 47 seats) They fill up fast. These buses should be able to handle even more people then the others with more standing room.

[geneking7320]

I was born in the 50's. I have ridden "old look" buses which seated 50.

Now we have 60 foot artics which seat 47 people.

This is really sad...

[Busjack]

I was born in the 50's. I have ridden "old look" buses which seated 50.

Now we have 60 foot artics which seat 47 people.

This is really sad...

Yep, we are in the range of 35 footers, considering, again, that you lose 6 seats if the two wheelchair positions are in use.

I'm starting to think that the next phase is to hire that guy from the Tokyo subway with the prod to stand in front of Water Tower Place to facilitate cramming the passengers into the buses.

Also, if the Brown Line cars couldn't go completely seatless because the load would exceed their structural strength, I wonder how long these buses will last before they get NABI like cracks. Won't be able to blame the manufacturer this time. ;)

[MetroShadow]

I'm starting to think that the next phase is to hire that guy from the Tokyo subway with the prod to stand in front of Water Tower Place to facilitate cramming the passengers into the buses.

Where can I submit my resume for the job?

[Busjack]

First virtual confirmation. No sight of 4149 yet.

[jacksone44]

1. The 58 buses are coming with www.transitchicago.com on instead of transitchicago.com over the rear windows.

2. If you look above the front door of those delivered thus far, there is a "recovery.gov TIGER" decal.

[Busjack]

...

2. If you look above the front door of those delivered thus far, there is a "recovery.gov TIGER" decal.

Your President promised the stickers.

UPDATE: I thought that TIGER was TIGGER, but apparently DOT has TIGER, too. I doubt that either is relevant in this context. LaHood even has a website on how to use the logos. Oh, the joys of googling.

[trainman8119]

First virtual confirmation. No sight of 4149 yet.

I have seen 4153 on the 147 a couple times this week. My first actual sightings of the newbies

in service.

[BusHunter]

#4156 was on the #147 this evening around 6 p.m.

[jacksone44]

#4156 was on the #147 this evening around 6 p.m.

And I was on it. All of the seats in 4150+ (with the exception of the two in front of the second set of wheels and the very last row in the back) face the aisle. I hate it. I like to see where im going, and not the person across from me....

[cta_44499_FG]

#4156 was on the #147 this evening around 6 p.m.

I had 4154 on the 151 last night, which became disabled at Foster and Sheridan southbound.

[dann]

I had 4154 on the 151 last night, which became disabled at Foster and Sheridan southbound.

Uh-oh...looks like we have a lemon here.....

[jajuan]

Uh-oh...looks like we have a lemon here.....

I wouldn't jump the gun just yet. About a week after Kedzie received 1645, when it was getting its second batch of D40LFs, that bus became disabled when operating on the 12 Roosevelt. In a matter of days the bus was fixed and back on the road and as far as I know had few problems that took it out of commission again. Like was pointed out then, any new machine is still susceptible to having some kinks to shake out to get it running properly. Let's not let the NABI fiasco cloud opinion on what could be or could not be.

[pudgym29]

And I was on it. All of the seats in 4150+ (with the exception of the two in front of the second set of wheels and the very last row in the back) face the aisle. I hate it. I like to see where I'm going, and not the person across from me....

I think this constitutes new CTA seating policy: A reaction to boorish riders occupying the aisle seat of a transverse pair, and acting hostile to any other riders who want to sit in the unoccupied window seat.

It won't be as easy to block a seat next to them with longitudinal seating. So technically, the number of seats has been reduced. In real life, more seats will be occupied.

[dann]

I think this constitutes new CTA seating policy: A reaction to boorish riders occupying the aisle seat of a transverse pair, and acting hostile to any other riders who want to sit in the unoccupied window seat.

It won't be as easy to block a seat next to them with longitudinal seating. So technically, the number of seats has been reduced. In real life, more seats will be occupied.

And I seem to run into aisle seat riders more often on NP routes than any other. This new seating arrangement reminds me of an MTA subway car.

[trainman8119]

I think this constitutes new CTA seating policy: A reaction to boorish riders occupying the aisle seat of a transverse pair, and acting hostile to any other riders who want to sit in the unoccupied window seat.

It won't be as easy to block a seat next to them with longitudinal seating. So technically, the number of seats has been reduced. In real life, more seats will be occupied.

I think you're dreaming. First, it gives those with all the garbage they can carry more room to put cr@@ on each side of them...therefore instead of taking 2 seats, now they'll take 3-4 or even 5, thus creating less seating. Also, with the new seating, as reported, we have now been conned by the CTA of the space on these monsters. Remember the tag when the NABI's first came, as well as when the first of the New Flyer artics came...."60 seats, more room for you to ride". Now we have less than 50, which used to be standard seating capacity on buses prior to ADA requirements.

When geniuses waste money to have to hire consultants to find out why people don't use public transportation, all they have to do is look in the mirror (at the decisions being made). Why should I take a bus, if I am not comfortable, am being forced to stand, have to dodge unfolded strollers in the middle of the aisle and be delayed by the mope trying to put his bike on the front of the bus instead of riding it. And that is before the reliablility of scheduling and lack of service and the unwillingness to adjust when needed. Why should I take the L when I am forced to constantly have to take a shuttle bus 1/2 way through my trip because things are under constant construction. In theory, at least in my car, I can sit through repaving on Peterson with a cup of coffee and the radio on. On the bus or L I have to cram, in silence, and look at somebody I don't want to look at or sit next to.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see this system operate like it used to...trains running in rush hour constantly, buses 10 minutes apart, workable night service. Yes, money is tight...but then, hasn't it always been ????? Face it, the system sucks right now, and once again, I'll state that as long as the politicians and special interests have their fingers in the pie, all the sugar in the world won't sweeten it up to make it taste good again.

Rant over.

[Busjack]

I had the same thought about someone taking up 3 or 4 seats for junk.

I also agree about the cattle car accommodations. However, I doubt that there are consultants that are thinking these things up. In any event, if you lose 66% per rider, the idea is to get ridership down. Except, instead of a $70,000 New Look in 1972, you now have a $840,000 hybrid artic. (Although checking the government CPI calculator, the current price for a 40 foot diesel isn't that far out of line.) As I previously mentioned, the artic. is justified only if you have the Tokyo subway guy with a prod cramming the standees into the bus.

Throw in something like the article in the Trib. a couple of days ago about the Washington station staying closed until they figure out what to do with Block 37, and you know that CTA is not a customer focused organization.

However, given pictures of people hanging off the outsides of cable cars and streetcars, it probably was always thus. It would have taken something like the conditions of the dead BRT plan (in addition to leasing the parking meters, raising parking taxes and closing the right lane) to get optional riders out of their cars. In fact, you don't hear anything about attracting discretionary riders on CTA, and only rarely on Pace.

Then, again, let us know when Metra institutes the seatless car (as last used in Nazi Germany). There were the stories about some British airline taking out some seats and strapping passengers into some S&M device.

[geneking7320]

I should have asked this question months ago.

Over the 12 year life of a transit bus, how does the costs of ownership and operation of a regular diesel bus compare to that of a hybrid? Has anyone ground the numbers?

Gene King

[Busjack]

I should have asked this question months ago.

Over the 12 year life of a transit bus, how does the costs of ownership and operation of a regular diesel bus compare to that of a hybrid? Has anyone ground the numbers?

Gene King

I suppose that some inferences could be drawn from this month's finance report, in that consumption is down based on a better mpg and less mileage than budget.

There was also the press release that

Through this purchase, CTA estimates that the hybrid technology can save the agency more than $300,000 annually in fuel costs and nearly $2.3 million annually in maintenance, parts and labor costs over buses currently in service. The 60-foot hybrid's average fuel consumption is 3.7 miles per gallon, a 39 percent increase in fuel efficiency versus non-hybrid 60-foot buses (2.65 mpg).

The release is for the 58 buses.

However, since a hybrid bus costs about $200,000 more than a diesel one, if one is just assuming the fuel savings, it would take 38 years to get payback. One also wonders if this assumes the fuel cost under the CTA hedge, which according to the quoted financial report, is $4.69 a gallon, when you can buy ULSF biodiesel at the pump for about $2.80, including taxes.

Of course (since you asked about the costs of operation and ownership), there is the $2.3 million a year in less maintenance than the NABIs, so the payback, compared to them, would be $31.2 million over the 12 year FTA period out of the $50 million in stimulus funds spent. Also, since they are stimulus funds, it doesn't come out of operating, and certain politicians would be screaming if hybrids were not purchased.

Huberman came up with a similar almost 50% savings vs. capital cost with regard to the leased ones. That one assumed labor savings, which could no longer be assumed once those buses were designated to replace the NABIs.

Of course, it would take a real CTA insider to get us real numbers.

[BusHunter]

I should have asked this question months ago.

Over the 12 year life of a transit bus, how does the costs of ownership and operation of a regular diesel bus compare to that of a hybrid? Has anyone ground the numbers?

Gene King

Even though they do cost more to buy one, they run cheaper than a diesel. The 60 foot hybrid's cunsume just as much fuel as a 40 footer. Over the coarse of ownership this daily cost savings adds up. It would virtually pay for the cost of the bus. The question is whether you have the extra money to finance a purchase because in the long run they will save you money. The only thing that concerns me, is the life of the battery being used on a daily basis. Those batteries eventually will quit and you'll have to replace them. When that happens only time will tell. BTW, if your keeping up with street arrivals, #4157 was on the #147 on Monday.

[jacksone44]

I think you're dreaming. First, it gives those with all the garbage they can carry more room to put cr@@ on each side of them...therefore instead of taking 2 seats, now they'll take 3-4 or even 5, thus creating less seating. Also, with the new seating, as reported, we have now been conned by the CTA of the space on these monsters. Remember the tag when the NABI's first came, as well as when the first of the New Flyer artics came...."60 seats, more room for you to ride". Now we have less than 50, which used to be standard seating capacity on buses prior to ADA requirements.

When geniuses waste money to have to hire consultants to find out why people don't use public transportation, all they have to do is look in the mirror (at the decisions being made). Why should I take a bus, if I am not comfortable, am being forced to stand, have to dodge unfolded strollers in the middle of the aisle and be delayed by the mope trying to put his bike on the front of the bus instead of riding it. And that is before the reliablility of scheduling and lack of service and the unwillingness to adjust when needed. Why should I take the L when I am forced to constantly have to take a shuttle bus 1/2 way through my trip because things are under constant construction. In theory, at least in my car, I can sit through repaving on Peterson with a cup of coffee and the radio on. On the bus or L I have to cram, in silence, and look at somebody I don't want to look at or sit next to.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see this system operate like it used to...trains running in rush hour constantly, buses 10 minutes apart, workable night service. Yes, money is tight...but then, hasn't it always been ????? Face it, the system sucks right now, and once again, I'll state that as long as the politicians and special interests have their fingers in the pie, all the sugar in the world won't sweeten it up to make it taste good again.

Rant over.

I second that...

[jacksone44]

Even though they do cost more to buy one, they run cheaper than a diesel. The 60 foot hybrid's cunsume just as much fuel as a 40 footer. Over the coarse of ownership this daily cost savings adds up. It would virtually pay for the cost of the bus. The question is whether you have the extra money to finance a purchase because in the long run they will save you money. The only thing that concerns me, is the life of the battery being used on a daily basis. Those batteries eventually will quit and you'll have to replace them. When that happens only time will tell. BTW, if your keeping up with street arrivals, #4157 was on the #147 on Monday.

4158 is on the 147 as well.

[nflyer22]

4158 is on the 147 as well.

Saw it myself when I was biking along the bike path along LSD last night.

[cta_44499_FG]

Saw it myself when I was biking along the bike path along LSD last night.

4160 and 4162 arrived at North Park today.