2400-series - Updates (Retired)

[sw4400]

Those are the orange/brown line trains. Speaking of #2400's, all the previously mentioned retired cars still at howard yard are gone now to skokie shops. A few new #2400's have taken there place like #2485-86, #2479-80 and some more in the #2535 range.

Oh yeah, I know that. Last time I was on a 2400-Series railcar on the Brown Line was years ago when the "Ravenstons" ran early morning service on the Brown Line pre-8a. I know there was a time the 2400's were assigned to the Brown Line along with the 6000's(this was probably in the 1980's). The 3200's retired the 6000's in 1992, and I don't know if the 2400's remained in some capacity until all the 3200's finished arriving in 1994, or were they displaced to the other lines that used them at the time.

It was a while since I've seen 2600-Series railcars on the Brown Line as well(except 3458). Last time I remember them on the Brown Line was back in the early to mid 2000's when 2993-3002 was assigned.

[andrethebusman]

Which is the 2400 at Skokie that still has the red/white/blue end?

[BusHunter]

I believe that's #2532, wrecked in Howard yard. Looks to have frame damage.

[BusHunter]

Last month an ordinance came up for approval at CTA HQ authorizing the retirement of 85 #2200 and #2400 series cars to B.L Duke. I don't know if this is the same contract Busjack has mentioned previously, but if not it means more cars are on the way out.

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/ordinances/014-2_-_Advertised_Item.pdf

A few more ordinances link to a few interesting things like the Harrison Red line rehab that no one seems to talk about.

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/ordinances/Ord__013-166.pdf

Or the ordinance of the repair of Thermo King Air conditioning units to Illinois Auto Central during the #1000 series mid life rehab.

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/ordinances/013-173.pdf

I'm assuming most ordinances are passed.

[Busjack]

....

I'm assuming most ordinances are passed.

That's the distinction between an agenda item (proposed for a meeting) and ordinance (passed at the meeting). See the "full force and effect" language at the end of the ordinances.

For instance, on the 85 cars to be retired, I had picked up the agenda item. The new thing revealed in the ordinance, is that B.L Duke won the contract. So, apparently these cars will go to Forest View (according to the website) instead of Chicago Heights.

Harrison Red Line is a bit surprising, in that the city owns the subway (back to the days when it built it for CRT), and my understanding was that CDOT was responsible for the other subway station rehabs.

Duke also said it got the scrap from the Red Line project.

My other conclusion is that with CTA becoming less transparent on what it posts on the meeting and vendor pages, maybe we have to go through everything, including agendas and ordinances, to figure anything out.

[Busjack]

Since BusHunter sent me in this direction, here is the ordinance on the prior cars, authorizing scrapping by Belson. As I previously noted, the agenda said that this was item 103638, and the one BusHunter found for B.L. Duke was 103640. Apparently, the Belson contract was upped to 100 cars.

[BusHunter]

Weird though both #2200/#2400 scrapping contracts only deal with 185 cars. That's barely 55 #2400 cars and if the latest ordinance could be approved and executed by 1/14, they must be counting scrap #2400's on the first contract, because I heard about two months ago #2400's went away on the flat bed truck to salvage, so if we went to Belson Scrap we should see #2400's, not just #2200's.

If you figure what's gone for #2200's which totaled 130 something cars before the first scrap contract was awarded, except #2347-48 which was purchased and #2243-44 which was saved and the six cars at Harlem yard along with the 5 at Skokie Shops that would total about 114 cars scrapped. Take away a few #2400's that have been scrapped and a rough figure would be close to 100 cars. In saying that, then the Bl Duke contract would consist of 11 #2200's and about 74 #2400's if all #2200's were scrapped which may not be the case. (so probably 70 would be a more accurate projection) So what about the other 110-120 #2400 cars? Seems like they could retire the 70 #2400 cars now, with what has been on the Purple line lately. But there doesn't seem to be a third scrap proposal as of yet. To me they seem a little behind.

[Busjack]

...But there doesn't seem to be a third scrap proposal as of yet. To me they seem a little behind.

This, in itself took a lot of digging. However, I have the feeling that (1) there was another arrangement with Belson to scrap cars before this September 2013 contract for 100 (Chicago-l.org has scrapping starting in earnest in Summer 2012) and (2) the final ride of the 2200s was a lot later than we expected.

IMO, I don't even see why 2200s were mentioned on the B.L. Duke contract.

You'll have to find someone with the hold list.

[BusHunter]

This, in itself took a lot of digging. However, I have the feeling that (1) there was another arrangement with Belson to scrap cars before this September 2013 contract for 100 (Chicago-l.org has scrapping starting in earnest in Summer 2012) and (2) the final ride of the 2200s was a lot later than we expected.

IMO, I don't even see why 2200s were mentioned on the B.L. Duke contract.

You'll have to find someone with the hold list.

Well obviously, we are in the middle of a change over between Belson and BL Duke. It would be a good guess to summise that due to the slow down on scrapping at Skokie Shops. Just lately though activity has picked up with #2400 cars that were sitting around Howard yard starting to disappear, most likely to Skokie Shops. If we are missing a scrap contract it should be buried in the ordinances, or maybe we can dig up some old bids, but personally I'm not aware of any.

[Busjack]

Well obviously, we are in the middle of a change over between Belson and BL Duke. It would be a good guess to summise that due to the slow down on scrapping at Skokie Shops. Just lately though activity has picked up with #2400 cars that were sitting around Howard yard starting to disappear, most likely to Skokie Shops. If we are missing a scrap contract it should be buried in the ordinances, or maybe we can dig up some old bids, but personally I'm not aware of any.

Again, running a Google for Belson comes up only with the Sept. 2013 contract. Running one for scrap rail cars comes up with 103620RR--the proposal in 2011 to sell the 3 wrecked rail cars 2470, 2855, and 3031--and the two ordinances mentioned above.

As far as speeding it up,the Belson ordinance of Sept. 2013 and B.L. Duke one of Jan.2014 sure show a speed up, in that one can figure that that Belson contract only was good enough for 4 months.

It isn't clear how CTA solicited bids for the last two contracts, in that I don't recall, and Google doesn't reflect a solicitation. Maybe, according to the Procurement Process page, CTA doesn't have to post a solicitation, as scrap is a separate category, and all it says is how to be added to the bidder's list. Anybody on the inside on this one?

[BusHunter]

From the appearance of the two ordinances, the startup of the scrap project was slow, starting with a contract in Sept, when the farewell #2200's charter happened a month earlier. Something seems fishy. If we look at my #2200's list I bet we can find cars leaving the property before Sept. That would point to a missing contract, if as you say the first ordinance was in Sept and it can't be executed before it's signed.

Looking at my list, there are cars scrapped by Belson all the way back to May 2012, so there must be a missing ordinance or contract. No contract exists before that date?

[Busjack]

....

Looking at my list, there are cars scrapped by Belson all the way back to May 2012, so there must be a missing ordinance or contract. No contract exists before that date?

Given the sloppy way CTA has been posting stuff (such as this showing up in ordinances but not the vendor database), the answer I give most people is if they really have to know, they have to FOIA it.

[Shamrock7]

Hi, I'm a New Member and this is my first post on this forum.

I currently live in Seattle, the home of the most expensive rail line to build per passenger mile in the history of the USA!

I was born in Evanston, with family in Cicero, Brookfield, Hinsdale and Lisle. When I was younger (45 now) I wanted to be a transit planner, yet my parents moved to Seattle when I was younger and the way things are done on the Left Coast is not something that I wanted to endure the frustration of a full time career in the transit industry battling against. I'll call it Backwoods Arrogant Stupidity for simplicity, even though its far more corrupt and devious than that.

So I ended up working in the trade show and special event industry and have traveled abroad quite a bit as a result.

As a result of this I've been in a few countries that could really use having used equipment from the CTA to operate in many cities in the world that simply don't have the financial ability to build new systems, especially in todays economic world.

Even though this would mean rehabilitating used rolling stock, and then developing systems that would be more cost effective to employ for developing operational systems in other countries (Pantograph vs. Third Rail plus substation development and/or Head End Power of trailer cars pulled behind locomotives) I see all of these cars being scrapped as a waste of a opportunity that could help so many people in many countries. With simple wooden or concrete platforms being built and since the CTA rolling stock is lighter weight than regular commuter rail equipment, 4-6 car trains could even be pulled with yard locomotives.

Better braking (Air) would probably have to be implemented and the FRA crash standards wouldn't be an issue in other countries, yet installing razor wire on the roofs might be necessary in some countries as well.

So the questions that come to mind are:

How "Shot" (mechanically) are these cars if they're still running in revenue service?

If they're selling for around $5k in scrap value, then would CTA be willing to assist in developing a program to help in Rehabbing the rolling stock to work overseas and help the acquiring agency to learn how to operate and maintain the line and equipment in order to get a better return on the the equipment than scrap value?

Has this ever been done before in any way by CTA to anyone's knowledge?

Now I'd bet that you all weren't ready for that question!

Good Site Here, well worth reading and I look forward to hearing back with your thoughts on this idea/questions.

Chris.

[Busjack]

,,,

Even though this would mean rehabilitating used rolling stock, and then developing systems that would be more cost effective to employ for developing operational systems in other countries (Pantograph vs. Third Rail plus substation development and/or Head End Power of trailer cars pulled behind locomotives) I see all of these cars being scrapped as a waste of a opportunity that could help so many people in many countries. With simple wooden or concrete platforms being built and since the CTA rolling stock is lighter weight than regular commuter rail equipment, 4-6 car trains could even be pulled with yard locomotives.

Better braking (Air) would probably have to be implemented and the FRA crash standards wouldn't be an issue in other countries, yet installing razor wire on the roofs might be necessary in some countries as well.

So the questions that come to mind are:

How "Shot" (mechanically) are these cars if they're still running in revenue service?

If they're selling for around $5k in scrap value, then would CTA be willing to assist in developing a program to help in Rehabbing the rolling stock to work overseas and help the acquiring agency to learn how to operate and maintain the line and equipment in order to get a better return on the the equipment than scrap value?

Has this ever been done before in any way by CTA to anyone's knowledge?

...

On how shot, let's put it that cars that were not scheduled for retirement for about another 4 years were in such bad shape that the safety systems apparently shorted out, letting them run without an operator, and bypassing a bunch of track trips before they crashed into another train on the Blue Line, despite about 6 things that should have prevented it.

The kind of upgrades you suggest would be in excess of the dead proposal to rebuild the 3200s as mechanically identical to 5000s, which was estimated at about $1 million a car.That certainly did not include air brakes or pantographs. In addition, there is some indication that if the cars were not built with supports on the roof for a pantograph platform, they aren't strong enough to retrofit them. They certainly are not strong enough to meet FRA standards, and hence, probably the only salvageable part, the body, would be worthless for that application.

The CTA Press Release said that a 10 year overhaul of the 3200 series cars is estimated at $166 million, or $650,000 a car.

CTA certainly doesn't have $650,000 to $1 million a car just to donate it to some third world country.

Probably some third world country has a better subway system, and undoubtedly doesn't run as narrow cars.

The third world country would have to buy the cars at scrap value and arrange to pick them up FOB Skokie Shops, export them, and then fix them.

As far as it ever happened before, some trolley buses were shipped to Guadalajara Mexico around 1973, and rehabbed there, and Krambles's book indicates that there was an aborted deal to send some diesel buses to Zaire, around 1990. A few 6000 series L cars were used by SEPTA for a short time.

[Shamrock7]

It's interesting to read about that incident since things like that should never be happening, especially after what has been learned over the decades of rail operations in the world. It's not like this is a new type of matter like Texting while operating a Commuter Rail Locomotive as in the L.A. (Chatsworth) Metrolink acccident, which never should have happened either. on a side note; down in Portland, TriMet (Tri-NOT) had to make a rule so that bus operators wouldn't be talking on their cell phones when driving coaches in revenue service. That hasn't been too much of an issue in the Seattle area and hopefully not with CTA either.

Here's the NTSB report on that Blue Line incident/accident:

https://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2013/DCA13FR014.pdf

So what I don't understand is how empty cars are rolling out of a storage yard in the first place. One would figure that there would be mechanical parking brakes applied to the wheels and wheel chocks placed by the last operator of the train to prevent the possibility of a roll away, as a safety measure. I read on this forum that at one yard they're wrapping a big chain around the track to prevent this type of thing from happening, yet it seems ridiculous that CTA won't simply get these to use:

https://www.google.com/#q=railcar+wheel+chocks

Looks like another case of Operations/Management not thinking about the basics while spending too much on technology instead?

Regarding upgrading to those levels for export to what would essentially be impoverished nations to improve their infrastructure, $650k a car would never happen. The problem we have in the USA and now the rest of the world is what I call:

"The Transit Industrial Complex" where you have all of the manufacturing of buses and rail cars handled by just a handful of multi-national companies, combined with manufacturing safety rules that require certification from Altoona or Pueblo, that drive up the costs of each vehicle by creating different rules that many foreign companies don't want to be bothered since the USA is a samll market when compared to the rest of the world that uses standard EU regulations. I mean it's not as if they want to make unsafe equipment so that their families and children get killed in accidents either.

So that, when combined with lawsuit liability is why the cost of everything is so high here in the US to build or rehab transit equipment. A basic rehab would involve testing and repairing any wiring harness problems, lighting, door mechanisms, traction motor wear parts replacement, brakes, HVAC, and seating and stanchion repair. Additional structural analysis of the car body and chassis would have to be done to look for metal fatigue and could require repair and bracing in some areas to alleviate future wear over an additional 15-25 year time span; knowing that we're talking about impoverished nations here that would be running this equipment well beyond what we would consider the lifespan of the vehicle in the USA.

Take the M.A.N. Artic's that CTA bought used from Seattle (Not sure if you got the Americana's too - we called those the Velveeta Cheese Boxes out here), which were pretty well run out. Those were the coach orders that created the Buy America rules that exist today, since the Fed's didn't want US taxpayer money going to German suppliers even though we didn't make any Artic's in North America at that time. The same thing goes for Trolley Buses to this day with Muni, Dayton even Seattle with the Breda JUNK that are examples of recent coach purchasing issues for Trolley Coaches. The Breda's even came with two Kenworth Tow Trucks as a part of the order- not kidding. What I was getting at though was that the M.A.N. coaches were built like Tanks when compared to the Ikarus junk that Portland bought about 20 of. While they didn't run for too long in CTA service since the 6 cyl. engines and all the hills out here wore them out, they sill put in a good bit of service at a time when they were needed (22 years overall for a bus seems very good) due to budget issues (New Artic's are now $690-$850k for the BRT versions) and the same could probably be accomplished with basic upgrades to CTA rolling stock for use in other nations. Hopefully.

The roof support issues make sense and I'd bet that there was some bracing done on the cars used for the Swift as well, so that's not a surprise. Hopefully there might be an interest within the CTA and at the Skokie Shops to work on this idea as it could be more beneficial than scrapping the rolling stock. Shipping would be an issue, yet US Aid might get involved with their contractors ships as well.

As for the Global Need - Check out these images as examples:

https://www.google.com/search?q=overcrowded+railways&biw=1087&bih=554&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Umr9UsmNEtHV4ATOuIA4&ved=0CC8QsAQ

Thanks for the reply!

[Busjack]

...

As for the Global Need - Check out these images as examples:

https://www.google.com/search?q=overcrowded+railways&biw=1087&bih=554&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Umr9UsmNEtHV4ATOuIA4&ved=0CC8QsAQ

Thanks for the reply!

Just because India has overcrowded trains doesn't mean that they want to buy incompatible and obsolete equipment.

Since you got really off topic, the MAN articulateds from Seattle were only a stopgap because the ones originally in Chicago were shot (we were sold the bill of goods that winters were not as bad in Seattle),but those were pretty shot too. Those were a stopgap until CTA got the NABIs, which turned out to be Hungarian garbage (see here and here). And I personally support the Buy America Act to the extent that if U.S. Taxpayer money is going into the expenditure, it ought to generate some American jobs. Even Ronald Reagan recognized that.

[chgofan78]

The retired 2400-series list should be updated soon. All of the retired cars on the Purple Line have been removed from Howard Yard. The Purple Line should be down to 40 cars or less including the 12 work motor cars.

[BusHunter]

I took note of what #2400's were on the purple line today. I just saw #2473-74, #2505-06, #2539-40, #2561-62, #2565-66, #2581-82 and another one which I missed. I didn't even see any work trains. So that's about 14 cars. Didn't see a train either with more than one set in the consist.

[jajuan]

I took note of what #2400's were on the purple line today. I just saw #2473-74, #2505-06, #2539-40, #2561-62, #2565-66, #2581-82 and another one which I missed. I didn't even see any work trains. So that's about 14 cars. Didn't see a train either with more than one set in the consist.

Yeah neither did I. Actually I was a little surprised to see any 2400s on the Purple Line because of the past few weeks of my only seeing 2600s on that line.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

Let me just say that as someone who grew up near the Green Line, I am going to miss the 2400s. I know, I thought it was cool when I got my first ride on a 5000 Series car, but having ridden the Green Line since kindergarten, and seeing the trains roll by long before then, I have to say those 2400s certainly made their mark. Also, who doesn't like those front seats behind the operator's cab?

[TheBrunswickBowler]

Let me just say that as someone who grew up near the Green Line, I am going to miss the 2400s. I know, I thought it was cool when I got my first ride on a 5000 Series car, but having ridden the Green Line since kindergarten, and seeing the trains roll by long before then, I have to say those 2400s certainly made their mark. Also, who doesn't like those front seats behind the operator's cab?

I will miss those cars too. I love those seats facing the cab. I got a Purple Line video and I sat in the forward facing seats and what an experience that was. I rode it from Merchandise Mart to Howard (going around the loop). Here's some footage of the 2400s for you guys... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdD5N6rOte0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yOpH8GQiv8

[Mr.cta85]

Let me just say that as someone who grew up near the Green Line, I am going to miss the 2400s. I know, I thought it was cool when I got my first ride on a 5000 Series car, but having ridden the Green Line since kindergarten, and seeing the trains roll by long before then, I have to say those 2400s certainly made their mark. Also, who doesn't like those front seats behind the operator's cab?

Yea I agree about the front seats they are now the only cars that feature the front facing seats behind the operators cab. The 2600's were also that before they got rehabbed and the now retired 2200 had 2 row front seats behind the motor cab. Hopefully with the 7000 series, now that they are bringing a more classic style of seating they will do the same with those series of cars.

[eyetube21]

I will miss those cars too. I love those seats facing the cab. I got a Purple Line video and I sat in the forward facing seats and what an experience that was. I rode it from Merchandise Mart to Howard (going around the loop). Here's some footage of the 2400s for you guys... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdD5N6rOte0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yOpH8GQiv8

I also going to miss them too. I remember back in the early 80s, these cars were assigned on the Howard-Englewood-Jackson Park line. They have red, white and blue color scheme on the sides of the cars. They were assigned on the Lake-Dan Ryan service as well. Back in 1996 during the reopening of the Green Line, I took some pictures of them at Harlem/Lake terminal. They'll be missed. Thanks for the memories, 2400s.

[Juniorz]

So, when is the official retirement of the series, im assuming the Summer of 2015?

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

I will miss those cars too. I love those seats facing the cab. I got a Purple Line video and I sat in the forward facing seats and what an experience that was. I rode it from Merchandise Mart to Howard (going around the loop). Here's some footage of the 2400s for you guys... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdD5N6rOte0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yOpH8GQiv8

Thanks for sharing!

Hopefully with the 7000 series, now that they are bringing a more classic style of seating they will do the same with those series of cars.

I hope so too. Also I wish they'd ditch the small cab window up front on the 5000s. That might make the 7000s the new rail fan favorite.