2012 40'/60' Procurement

[geneking7320]

I don't think the aisles will be any different than the present Novas, but you can see for yourself, just click the subchat link above that I quoted. There might be a little more room if they put the transverse seating on both sides like they did here, but there's still the two forward facing seats before the back door.

I watched the video and I think the new layout is a functional improvement from a rider's viewpoint. CTA's Nova's have wide rear wheel wells. Seats mounted on those wheel wells seem further away from the window which make your feet more likely to be stepped on. That's what prompted my question. It looks like the forthcoming bus may be better in that regard.

[sw4400]

Technically, when the Optimas are retired(which might not be as early as thought since there are some reports of Ventra readers on them), that should end any 30' 99" buses in the CTA roster. But who's to say they may not put out a bid for 30' 96" buses just to get a small order(I'd say 40-60) of MIDI's in the future if they stay in production for New Flyer in the next few years.

This is just pure speculation... no links, no stories, no press releases. Just thought here...

[Busjack]

Technically, when the Optimas are retired(which might not be as early as thought since there are some reports of Ventra readers on them), that should end any 30' 99" buses in the CTA roster. But who's to say they may not put out a bid for 30' 96" buses just to get a small order(I'd say 40-60) of MIDI's in the future if they stay in production for New Flyer in the next few years.

This is just pure speculation... no links, no stories, no press releases. Just thought here...

Your 40 to 60 one brings back the question why they originally advertised base 50 (resulting in 45) and options to 125 in the first place, and there basically wasn't any reason. Somebody must have thought that the far NW side and Evanston could use a smaller bus, but pulling them out of NP certainly put doubt on the latter.

The only justification would go back to the 170s, which have been cut back from what they once were, and any need would essentially be based on the length of that contract, and couldn't justify more than 15.

[sw4400]

Your 40 to 60 one brings back the question why they originally advertised base 50 (resulting in 45) and options to 125 in the first place, and there basically wasn't any reason. Somebody must have thought that the far NW side and Evanston could use a smaller bus, but pulling them out of NP certainly put doubt on the latter.

The only justification would go back to the 170s, which have been cut back from what they once were, and any need would essentially be based on the length of that contract, and couldn't justify more than 15.

That's true. It seems like CTA always had short buses... even going back in time in the early '80's there were some pine and lime schemed ones(I want to say Flxibles, but I'm not sure what they were). I think they were for ParaTransit, but the CTA had them in their fleet back then. Then there was the 3700's that ran Lake St. until 1991, when the 40' 96" TMC RTS buses came in and retired them. Following that, the Orion I's came and retired the TMC RTS narrow buses, then the Optimas retired the Orions. I think the CTA will always have a 96" bus in their fleet, and with MIDI now available and, if they do well in the market, continue to be in the future, the CTA might surprise us all and procure some of them(Might only be 30 tops, I just put 40-60 to put the number close to the quantity of Optimas there were/are in service). They seem to really like New Flyer, I personally think they wanted to give NOVA another go with the 300-450 bus contract for two reasons:

• Reliable buses(the 2000-2002 LFS were pretty efficient buses)
• Prevention of a favorites card(I don't think the CTA wants a 100% bus fleet from one manufacturer alone. Then they might hear complaints from other companies on how they weren't chosen when they had comparable equipment in their fleets they could've procured at a competitive price)

Only time will tell when it is officially time to say goodbye to the Optimas what the CTA might do. MIDI does give them an option to return to a 35' 96" bus, which is what the CTA had back in the day, I believe with those pine and lime buses that were used for paratransit. They're not as short as the Optimas but not quite as long as a standard New Flyer bus. It's kind of a win/win for all. I can see these buses used on low-ridership routes during non-peak times and Sundays as well as the UIC routes and maybe even some Evanston routes.

[BusHunter]

Yes, but the fact remains that CTA has been cutting service and merging lines on the NW side where the Optimas run. They are no longer needed especially in the rush hour in those places. It all depends on what CTA intends to do in the future. If they intend on cutting even more (probably likely) then I wouldn't waste my time on a future order of small buses. (unless they want to order 15 for the U of C.) Why buy buses that are incompatible with 95 percent of the system?

[Busjack]

That's true. It seems like CTA always had short buses... even going back in time in the early '80's there were some pine and lime schemed ones(I want to say Flxibles, but I'm not sure what they were). I think they were for ParaTransit, but the CTA had them in their fleet back then. Then there was the 3700's that ran Lake St. until 1991, when the 40' 96" TMC RTS buses came in and retired them. Following that, the Orion I's came and retired the TMC RTS narrow buses, then the Optimas retired the Orions. ...

Yes, but the fact remains that CTA has been cutting service and merging lines on the NW side where the Optimas run. They are no longer needed especially in the rush hour in those places. It all depends on what CTA intends to do in the future. If they intend on cutting even more (probably likely) then I wouldn't waste my time on a future order of small buses. (unless they want to order 15 for the U of C.) Why buy buses that are incompatible with 95 percent of the system?

I tend to go with BusHunter over sw on this one.

The narrow buses on Lake Street were because CTA didn't believe that 108" buses would clear the L supports. Now, not an issue, as there isn't a 16 Lake route.

Any consideration of 35 foot buses (former 8400 and 3300 series) seems out the window by the fact that a 40 foot low floor bus seats far fewer than an old 35 foot bus. The 35 foot buses were primarily used on downtown shuttles, but I don't think that there is any argument that 124 and 157 (what remains of those routes) are running light.

With regard to incompatible buses, I was thinking "is this something like Optima only importing English kits?" Apparently not, as New Flyer will be manufacturing the bus, but it is still only rated for a 10 year life, not the usual 12 year one.

[jajuan]

I tend to go with BusHunter over sw on this one.

The narrow buses on Lake Street were because CTA didn't believe that 108" buses would clear the L supports. Now, not an issue, as there isn't a 16 Lake route.

Any consideration of 35 foot buses (former 8400 and 3300 series) seems out the window by the fact that a 40 foot low floor bus seats far fewer than an old 35 foot bus. The 35 foot buses were primarily used on downtown shuttles, but I don't think that there is any argument that 124 and 157 (what remains of those routes) are running light.

With regard to incompatible buses, I was thinking "is this something like Optima only importing English kits?" Apparently not, as New Flyer will be manufacturing the bus, but it is still only rated for a 10 year life, not the usual 12 year one.

I agree CTA isn't likely to get very many 30 foot buses any time soon for the reasons Bushunter mentioned. (And by the way I've seen 157 buses get pretty full now that the route runs through UIC after the merger with the 38 Ogden/Taylor).

[geneking7320]

Does anyone know if CTA has awarded a contract for the artics?

Gene King

[Busjack]

Does anyone know if CTA has awarded a contract for the artics?

Gene King

Not yet. I'm sure it would be on their press release page if they had, especially if some Chicago vendor got a subcontract for the "no se permite fumar" sticker .

Not even New Flyer (or their NABI LLC subsidiary) has posted a premature release, as each has done in the past.

I suggest following the CTA Meetengs, Agendas, and Minutes page for the Finance, Audit, and Budget committee agendas. There is one posted for the July 15 meeting (Word doc), but that isn't on the procurement list.

[sw4400]

Does anyone know if CTA has awarded a contract for the artics?

Gene King

The only contract on the books right now is for the 300-450 40' buses which was awarded to Nova Bus. The new 60' bus contract probably won't be procured until one or two additional garages are artic-capable, otherwise where will they be housed?

[Busjack]

The only contract on the books right now is for the 300-450 40' buses which was awarded to Nova Bus. The new 60' bus contract probably won't be procured until one or two additional garages are artic-capable, otherwise where will they be housed?

And also how many would be needed for a mythical BRT project, how to pay for them, etc.

[Sam92]

And also how many would be needed for a mythical BRT project, how to pay for them, etc.

I'm still waiting for this mythical TSP signal on their existing "BRT" which was promised by the first quarter of the year but constantly changes dates :lol:

[jajuan]

And also how many would be needed for a mythical BRT project, how to pay for them, etc.

Right as it stands I really can't see them needing too many more artics beyond the extra 100 acquired off the reassigned Seattle option especially after the Red Line project is complete. They can easily reassign some of those from the south side to other garages as more garages are made artic capable and maybe get by with an extra 50. The only other use to justify more than than would be the for now mythical Ashland BRT as you would then be getting to the point of assigning artics on routes that are better served just keeping 40 foot buses only. and do we really want to see artics running half empty?

[Busjack]

...as you would then be getting to the point of assigning artics on routes that are better served just keeping 40 foot buses only. and do we really want to see artics running half empty?

It gets back to whether there was then or is now any decrowding plan that would put more artics on Ashland and Western, and a few other routes in any event, as well as brief times on 3 and 79, and whether those 100 buses would be sufficient come November.

[jajuan]

It gets back to whether there was then or is now any decrowding plan that would put more artics on Ashland and Western, and a few other routes in any event, as well as brief times on 3 and 79, and whether those 100 buses would be sufficient come November.

Well actually I was taking into account possible assignment of at least some artics on those two to make an estimate of going with the minimum 50 in this yet to be announced contract to acquire beyond the 4300s which are now all delivered and many of which are now seeing a lot of work on the R routes. And I remember you saying November to take into account time used to do what bus shifts that will be likely after the Dan Ryan segment rebuild since it's very doubtful 103rd for example will need 80 some artics at that point.

[Sam92]

Well actually I was taking into account possible assignment of at least some artics on those two to make an estimate of going with the minimum 50 in this yet to be announced contract to acquire beyond the 4300s which are now all delivered and many of which are now seeing a lot of work on the R routes. And I remember you saying November to take into account time used to do what bus shifts that will be likely after the Dan Ryan segment rebuild since it's very doubtful 103rd for example will need 80 some artics at that point.

Ok i agree that 80 is overkill for 103rd (they actually have 92 btw)I honestly think 103rd is good with 65. Those artics really saved grace in times of bus bunching or when put to work on Dan Ryan routes through out rush hour and sometimes off peak. Rush hour buses are sent from various routes like 95E/W, 106, 119, 34 and other busy trips in that time, then interline at the Ryan to busy trips for Carver HS on routes 34 an 108 or the 29. They can have enough buses to be exclusive to J14 without them being used on other routes and spares for when so go out of service. 26 performs pretty well with 4300's as the can be SRO even on artics towards the express zones along with some Stony Island trips. After the Ryan they could maybe shed 25 to 77th along with NP, and Kedzie shedding 15 to 77th as well giving its fair share of coverage on the 2, 3, 4, 8, 79, and 87 which all use a pretty sizable amount of buses (between 25-40 each in the rush except maybe the 2 which has had a 4300 or two.) and give them good coverage. Yeah 103rd may not need over 65 but do NP (120 artics) and Kedzie (70? artics) really need the amount they have? No way. just send them to 77th, its time they an amount the can actually work with.

[Sam92]

The only contract on the books right now is for the 300-450 40' buses which was awarded to Nova Bus. The new 60' bus contract probably won't be procured until one or two additional garages are artic-capable, otherwise where will they be housed?

Forest Glen is among the first garages to get upgrades. Is it still out of the question because of its layout? Cause if not the they could use a for the 56, 77, 78, 80 and 152 unless they plan on giving them up to NP for some lower ridership routes. That would then justify 130 artics but it doesnt look like much could be traded besides Evanston routes.

[Busjack]

Forest Glen is among the first garages to get upgrades. Is it still out of the question because of its layout? Cause if not the they could use a for the 56, 77, 78, 80 and 152 unless they plan on giving them up to NP for some lower ridership routes. That would then justify 130 artics but it doesnt look like much could be traded besides Evanston routes.

It also depends on the hoist project. The prior picture only had an Optima on the hoist. This month's Construction Report has a picture at the end of the layout at Forest Glen, but it sure looks the same as the picture in Krambles's book of 5000 series propane buses (page 75, caption says 1966).

[BusHunter]

It also depends on the hoist project. The prior picture only had an Optima on the hoist. This month's Construction Report has a picture at the end of the layout at Forest Glen, but it sure looks the same as the picture in Krambles's book of 5000 series propane buses (page 75, caption says 1966).

They didn't put in an artic hoist (3 lift points) at Fg and they probably never will. (They didn't upgrade all of them though) 77th did get an artic lift, so expect artics to stay at 77th.

[sw4400]

I would agree that Forest Glen should get an artic hoist so they can have some articulated buses. There are routes that can use them during heavy traffic times:

• 56 Milwaukee: This route could stand for artics. I'm don't think 24/7, but during peak travel times, perhaps.
• 77 Belmont: Get artics for this route or work on an "A" and "B" service where one picks up from the Kimball Blue Line and the other just runs straight west and east on Belmont
• 78 Montrose: This is a yes and no route. It has it's moments where the 40' buses are crammed back to back, but not often enough to probably warrant artics, maybe just additional 40' buses.
• 80 Irving Park: I've seen this route with sardine can Novas and New Flyers, especially after Lakeview H.S lets out. Even once at 7p, back to back westbound Irving Park buses were sardine cans. Artics definitely needed during peak times here
• 152 Addison: This route needs more artics, perhaps all artics during Lane Tech dismissal and when the Cubs have games, because those 40' buses are really useless and super overcrowded to the point of drivers missing your stops because they can't see you pressing your way to the back or waiting for the back doors to activate so they can push them open and leave. I've seen people yelling at the operator for this reason before(this was on 77) and all the operator could say was "Sorry." Not blaming the operator, but CTA. These routes need the artics!!!

[MetroShadow]

I would agree that Forest Glen should get an artic hoist so they can have some articulated buses. There are routes that can use them during heavy traffic times:

• 78 Montrose: This is a yes and no route. It has it's moments where the 40' buses are crammed back to back, but not often enough to probably warrant artics, maybe just additional 40' buses.

This route actually needs to show up and be on-time more. Fix that before even introducing artics on this route.

[Sam92]

This route actually needs to show up and be on-time more. Fix that before even introducing artics on this route.

So what they say about the 78 bein very late is true then . I thought is was more to do with classes at Truman getting out because last time I rode, it was empty from the beginning but crowded up with a lot of Truman students leaving classes

[jajuan]

No the 78 is notoriously late all the time. Every time I pass the stops between Montrose and Wilson along Clark Street on the 22, those stops always seem to have irate folks who've been standing at the stops for a while waiting on a 78 during the 78's service times. And each and every time, those folks are complaining about seeing 4 or 5 #22's passing by but still no #78.

[ctrabs74]

I would agree that Forest Glen should get an artic hoist so they can have some articulated buses. There are routes that can use them during heavy traffic times:

• 152 Addison: This route needs more artics, perhaps all artics during Lane Tech dismissal and when the Cubs have games, because those 40' buses are really useless and super overcrowded to the point of drivers missing your stops because they can't see you pressing your way to the back or waiting for the back doors to activate so they can push them open and leave. I've seen people yelling at the operator for this reason before(this was on 77) and all the operator could say was "Sorry." Not blaming the operator, but CTA. These routes need the artics!!!

Either that or shift all the 152 to North Park instead of splitting the route with FG. Or, at the very least, assign artics on all 152 runs out of NP.

[sw4400]

Either that or shift all the 152 to North Park instead of splitting the route with FG. Or, at the very least, assign artics on all 152 runs out of NP.

NP does assign all artics to the 152 runs they do during L.T.H.S dismissals and Cubs games. The issue is they don't assign enough, more so with the L.T.H.S dismissals. They usually only have about four total assigned around 2:30p-3p until 4p(two westbound beginning from Artesian until Kedzie, maybe all the way to Cumberland. the other two start from I guess Kedzie most likely heading east to Lake Shore. The rest of the buses on the routes on Addison are typically 40' buses from FG and they are usually lined up where they get the bulk of the kids letting out.

e.g:

2:20p on a dismissal day

Eastbound @ Artesian

6757(due 7 min)

1261(due 13 min)

4135(due 18 min)

6777(due 25 min)

1230(due 30+ min)

4167(due 30+ min)

Westbound @ Artesian

1189(due 4 min)

6693(due 9 min)

4085(due 14 min)

6700(due 20 min)

6739(due 26 min)

4096(due 30+ min)

In these examples, 6757, 1261, 1189 and 6693 would essentially become sardine cans when they reach Artesian because of the extreme overcrowding of kids, while 4135 and 4085 will come along to pick up more dismissed kids around 2:35p-2:40p. The following 40' buses will suffer overcrowding until the next artics come to pick up more kids. This forces the bus operators to leave people at the curb at later bus stops who might need that bus to get to work or appointment on time because they are overcrowded. Leaving early for your job/appointment only helps so much, CTA has to do their part to avoid the sardine can buses. That's where additional artics on routes such as the ones mentioned above at Forest Glen could use them. Maybe not 24/7, but at least during peak times where these overcrowded buses occur.

Belmont is another story altogether. They need artics probably all day there or make an "A" "B" skip stop service like I mentioned above. 77A goes to Kimball picks up passengers at the Kimball Blue Line and heads back west/east on Belmont. 77B just heads west/east on Belmont with no detour to the Kimball Blue Line so the buses aren't as crowded.