3200-series - Updates

[Juniorz]

The rehabs have not begun yet, the agency is still buying parts and awarding sales for the rehabs, such as the HVAC units and Auxiliary Power Supply Systems.(for 261 cars)

[briman94]

The rehabs have not begun yet, the agency is still buying parts and awarding sales for the rehabs, such as the HVAC units and Auxiliary Power Supply Systems.(for 261 cars)

Are they just ordering extra parts or do they plan on rehabbing 3 extra 2600s as well (which would be silly as they come in pairs)?

[Busjack]

Are they just ordering extra parts or do they plan on rehabbing 3 extra 2600s as well (which would be silly as they come in pairs)?

The specs are parts for 257 cars plus the 4 test units now being tested, which apparently will be replaced with the permanent units. As I noted before, it is unclear what they intend to do with 3458.

[garmon757]

The specs are parts for 257 cars plus the 4 test units now being tested, which apparently will be replaced with the permanent units. As I noted before, it is unclear what they intend to do with 3458.

They may have no choice but to retired both #3457-58 unless they got tricks up inside their sleeves.

[Busjack]

They may have no choice but to retired both #3457-58 unless they got tricks up inside their sleeves.

But it gets down to whether they engaged in any thought in saying that the rehabs were for 257 cars.

[garmon757]

But it gets down to whether they engaged in any thought in saying that the rehabs were for 257 cars.

I know but what sense would it make to rehab one half of a mate? Speaking of that, I don't know how it became #3457-58 if anyone wants to enlighten me about it.

[briman94]

I know but what sense would it make to rehab one half of a mate? Speaking of that, I don't know how it became #3457-58 if anyone wants to enlighten me about it.

I've heard two versions of it. One was that one of the lower-numbered 3200s lost a mate in a collision or something and was repaired with one of the 2600s that also had no mate. The other version is that they had a 2600 with no mate during the end of the 3200 delivery process and had a 257th built that was compatible with the 2600 that had no mate. Either way, 3458 was obviously renumbered. I'm not sure if 3457 was renumbered from another 3200 or not.

[Busjack]

I know but what sense would it make to rehab one half of a mate? Speaking of that, I don't know how it became #3457-58 if anyone wants to enlighten me about it.

They wrecked 3031, but that was while they were getting the 3200s, so they just ordered another car and paired it with 3032 and renumbered 3032 (bottom of chicago-l.org 2600s page).

Note that Graham is pretty up to date on retirements, including due to the Harlem and O'Hare wrecks.

[Juniorz]

Rehab begins in March

[Busjack]

Rehab begins in March

Tribune article to that effect.

However, it talks about "squeezing 6 more years out of them," when the impression given before was that it was a 10 year rehab.

[sw4400]

Tribune article to that effect.

However, it talks about "squeezing 6 more years out of them," when the impression given before was that it was a 10 year rehab.

6 years more.... you have to be wondering if it's worth the money...

It doesn't seem like a temporary transfer of equipment will be necessary to maintain service, since only 2 8-car sets will be out at a time. I wonder if it'll be two from one line or one Brown and one Orange set at a time.

[garmon757]

I've heard two versions of it. One was that one of the lower-numbered 3200s lost a mate in a collision or something and was repaired with one of the 2600s that also had no mate. The other version is that they had a 2600 with no mate during the end of the 3200 delivery process and had a 257th built that was compatible with the 2600 that had no mate. Either way, 3458 was obviously renumbered. I'm not sure if 3457 was renumbered from another 3200 or not.

They wrecked 3031, but that was while they were getting the 3200s, so they just ordered another car and paired it with 3032 and renumbered 3032 (bottom of chicago-l.org 2600s page).

Note that Graham is pretty up to date on retirements, including due to the Harlem and O'Hare wrecks.

Thanks. It just seems weird having two different models as mates but it is what it is.

[BusHunter]

Tribune article to that effect.

However, it talks about "squeezing 6 more years out of them," when the impression given before was that it was a 10 year rehab.

Interesting that they are only going to work on 16 cars at a time for a period of six weeks. No doubt these #2600's on the Red line now will be the spares for whomever gets worked on, but I believe the brown line can't run #2600's, so they will be no doubt be fixing the Orange ones first, possibly sending them to Brown after completion.

I think the talk about them only lasting 6 years is pure speculation on part of the Tribune. If it has taken 6 years to retire 330 of the old #2200's and #2400's how in the world will they retire 550 #2600 cars by 6 years, especially when they won't receive anything for those first two years? Plus there has to be an experiment phase which could be 6 months to a year. So i really don't see deliveries starting in earnest until 2018. Looks to me like they will be retiring them by 2025-26, which is a 10-11 year service life post rehab.

[briman94]

Interesting that they are only going to work on 16 cars at a time for a period of six weeks. No doubt these #2600's on the Red line now will be the spares for whomever gets worked on, but I believe the brown line can't run #2600's, so they will be no doubt be fixing the Orange ones first, possibly sending them to Brown after completion.

I'd imagine it will involve some sort of juggling because, as you said, brown can't run 2600s due to a design flaw regarding tight corners. The way I'd do it is take a pair from Brown, send it for rehabs, pull one from Orange and replace it with 2600s, and then once the pair is done rehabbing, send it to Orange. Maybe we'll even get lucky and they'll use the remaining 5000s as spares during rehab instead of permanently assigning them to Orange.

[sw4400]

but I believe the brown line can't run #2600's....

I can't believe these statements, having rode post-rehabbed 2993-3002 when they were assigned to the Brown Line in the early to mid-2000's. The corners were as tight then as they are now.

I'd imagine it will involve some sort of juggling because, as you said, brown can't run 2600s due to a design flaw regarding tight corners. The way I'd do it is take a pair from Brown, send it for rehabs, pull one from Orange and replace it with 2600s, and then once the pair is done rehabbing, send it to Orange. Maybe we'll even get lucky and they'll use the remaining 5000s as spares during rehab instead of permanently assigning them to Orange.

With only two sets of 8-cars out at a time, I don't think any replacing will be required for the missing pairs. There are two ways to do the rehabs

• Split rehabs: One 8-car set from the Brown Line and one 8-car set from the Orange Line
• Rehab one line at a time: Rehab one lines set of 3200's first, then work on the next set.

It would be a coin toss as to which way the CTA will go here. Using the 1000-Series D40LF's as a model and the fact that a few from all garages are being done at a time, I think the same will happen here, using CTA logic. I would expect a 8-car set pulled from the Brown and a 8-car set pulled from the Orange. When they are done and tested, they are returned to their respective lines and another set is done.

The only question mark for me is 257 3200's are going to be rehabbed.... well there are not 257 3200's.... There are 256 3200's and 1 renumbered 2600, which is now actually at retirement age(30 years, built in 1985). I can't see them putting all this work into a 30-year old car, unless they can somehow get a shell from Bombardier, which would be pretty much flush with the 3200's, but then there would be the matter of the traction motors, which would need to be D/C. This is going to be interesting.... could there be a rebuilt, rehabbed 30-year old Budd car in service with color LED's? Or can they do a motor transplant from the 2600-Series railcar, rebuild it and put it onto a Bombardier shell and number it 3458?

[BusHunter]

I can't believe these statements, having rode post-rehabbed 2993-3002 when they were assigned to the Brown Line in the early to mid-2000's. The corners were as tight then as they are now.

With only two sets of 8-cars out at a time, I don't think any replacing will be required for the missing pairs. There are two ways to do the rehabs

• Split rehabs: One 8-car set from the Brown Line and one 8-car set from the Orange Line
• Rehab one line at a time: Rehab one lines set of 3200's first, then work on the next set.

It would be a coin toss as to which way the CTA will go here. Using the 1000-Series D40LF's as a model and the fact that a few from all garages are being done at a time, I think the same will happen here, using CTA logic. I would expect a 8-car set pulled from the Brown and a 8-car set pulled from the Orange. When they are done and tested, they are returned to their respective lines and another set is done.

The only question mark for me is 257 3200's are going to be rehabbed.... well there are not 257 3200's.... There are 256 3200's and 1 renumbered 2600, which is now actually at retirement age(30 years, built in 1985). I can't see them putting all this work into a 30-year old car, unless they can somehow get a shell from Bombardier, which would be pretty much flush with the 3200's, but then there would be the matter of the traction motors, which would need to be D/C. This is going to be interesting.... could there be a rebuilt, rehabbed 30-year old Budd car in service with color LED's? Or can they do a motor transplant from the 2600-Series railcar, rebuild it and put it onto a Bombardier shell and number it 3458?

Well I was alluding to the problems they have with the #2600 cars all getting blue lights. They could always just send the Brown line extra #3200's from Orange and the Orange becomes more #2600's, that's if, and that's a very big if they don't get #5000's on Orange. I see the problem also with #3457-58, so why not just just take one of the test kits and put them on #3458. If there is a conflict because they are two different series maybe they could retrofit it or just omit that part, but most likely it will have LED signs too. It's probably going to have to be one of the 100 #2600's that gets a life extending rehab that they were mentioning. But it probably wouldn't look right if it was left without a rehabbed sign. Really the 100 cars they want to rehab should get LED signs too. It might happen still or it might not.

[briman94]

Or can they do a motor transplant from the 2600-Series railcar, rebuild it and put it onto a Bombardier shell and number it 3458?

That would be really really really weird...A D/C 5000 car...I would expect the electronic components would wear more than a shell anyways. I'd think it would be more likely to use a 3200 shell for a 5000 car than a 5000 shell for a 2600 car.

Although, it might be cheaper to have Bombardier make a new shell if that's actually the part from 3458 that'd need to be replaced...otherwise they'd have to make new electronics for 3457 and an additional 5000 to pair with it if they really want to keep it in service.

I can't believe these statements, having rode post-rehabbed 2993-3002 when they were assigned to the Brown Line in the early to mid-2000's. The corners were as tight then as they are now.

I can't remember where I saw it, but there was some recent order that restricted 2600s from being used on the Brown line. Apparently when they go around tight corners (probably the tightest being at Kimball and in the yard), the wheel scrapes the inverter cover and moves it enough to make the vehicle think the cover was opened, which triggers the blue light.

[Busjack]

...I believe the brown line can't run #2600's, so they will be no doubt be fixing the Orange ones first, possibly sending them to Brown after completion.

....

Why not? Everything through the 3200s is supposed to be compatible, and once they took the 2400s out of Midway yard, somebody is going to have to be able to run the 2600s.

...

I think the talk about them only lasting 6 years is pure speculation on part of the Tribune. ... So i really don't see deliveries starting in earnest until 2018. Looks to me like they will be retiring them by 2025-26, which is a 10-11 year service life post rehab.

You are about right with 2018, but I had also read 2019. The test cars are supposed to be delivered 910 days (2-1/2 years) after the notice to proceed, and the remainder of the base order is not supposed to start delivery until 290 days (about 10 months) after the test cars are delivered. So, if the notice to proceed is early 2016, you are talking about production deliveries in the first quarter of 2019.

The issue, though, as I raised before, is that the specs (after having a base order of 400 to replace 2600s), say that Option 1 for 156 cars is to be exercised within 1826 days (5 years) from contract date, and Option 2 (100 cars) within 2010 days (5-1/2 years). Now, if we buy that the contract date will be in late 2015, that would mean that the options would have to be exercised some time in late 2020 or 2021. If the rehabs are good for six years, that means the 3200s won't be eligible for replacement until 2021 or 2022.

The specs also say that after the testing period is over, deliveries are supposed to be 10 to 14 cars per month, but once the manufacturer demonstrates its capability, 20 a month.

So the math, besides how long it would take to deliver the base order of cars, depends on how quickly they can deliver the 256 option ! and 2 cars after 2020. Maybe deliveries in 2021 and 2022 are a bit too ambitious, but I don't think the contract is going to last long enough to delay those deliveries to 2025. But you have enough information to do the math.

[briman94]

Why not? Everything through the 3200s is supposed to be compatible, and once they took the 2400s out of Midway yard, somebody is going to have to be able to run the 2600s.

Found where I saw the note regarding them not being able to run on the brown line:

Here I found the quote of what they said, this was in November 2014....

"The 2600 restriction to Kimball is due to 2600s with the larger size A wheels go through the tight turns, the wheels rub against the inverter door cover, moving it enough to lose the door close feed creating a blue light defect"

[Busjack]

There are 256 3200's and 1 renumbered 2600, which is now actually at retirement age(30 years, built in 1985)....

Wrong. There are 257 3200s and 1 renumbered 2600 (3032 to 3458). Unless you see a single unit train running (and no one has since about 1995), there has to be an even number of cars.

[briman94]

Wrong. There are 257 3200s and 1 renumbered 2600 (3032 to 3458). Unless you see a single unit train running (and no one has since about 1995), there has to be an even number of cars.

What series was running a single car? As far as I know, the steel-bodied cars can't run single, because there are components split between the A and B cars that are used in both. I thought the brake compressor was one of them...

[BusHunter]

Why not? Everything through the 3200s is supposed to be compatible, and once they took the 2400s out of Midway yard, somebody is going to have to be able to run the 2600s.

You are about right with 2018, but I had also read 2019. The test cars are supposed to be delivered 910 days (2-1/2 years) after the notice to proceed, and the remainder of the base order is not supposed to start delivery until 290 days (about 10 months) after the test cars are delivered. So, if the notice to proceed is early 2016, you are talking about production deliveries in the first quarter of 2019.

The issue, though, as I raised before, is that the specs (after having a base order of 400 to replace 2600s), say that Option 1 for 156 cars is to be exercised within 1826 days (5 years) from contract date, and Option 2 (100 cars) within 2010 days (5-1/2 years). Now, if we buy that the contract date will be in late 2015, that would mean that the options would have to be exercised some time in late 2020 or 2021. If the rehabs are good for six years, that means the 3200s won't be eligible for replacement until 2021 or 2022.

The specs also say that after the testing period is over, deliveries are supposed to be 10 to 14 cars per month, but once the manufacturer demonstrates its capability, 20 a month.

So the math, besides how long it would take to deliver the base order of cars, depends on how quickly they can deliver the 256 option ! and 2 cars after 2020. Maybe deliveries in 2021 and 2022 are a bit too ambitious, but I don't think the contract is going to last long enough to delay those deliveries to 2025. But you have enough information to do the math.

When though do they get the notice to proceed after the contract is signed? Or is it on it's own timeline?

You won't have to worry about the #3200's leaving by 2021. No way are they going to retire 400-500 cars by 2 years and the way the #2600's are going, they might still have the 550 #2600's in 2019. Once the #5000's order is completed what's the sense in retiring cars then?

[sw4400]

Wrong. There are 257 3200s and 1 renumbered 2600 (3032 to 3458). Unless you see a single unit train running (and no one has since about 1995), there has to be an even number of cars.

Ok, I made in error in my count. There are 257 3200's, but that doesn't justify what the point of rehabbing 257 is for... you need a mate to go with 3457. And 3458(ex-3032) looks to be the odd unit out here. So what do you with it? I don't think the CTA will randomly swap cars with 3457 creating mixed pairs so it gets some use.

[Busjack]

What series was running a single car? As far as I know, the steel-bodied cars can't run single, because there are components split between the A and B cars that are used in both. I thought the brake compressor was one of them...

1-50s. mostly on the Evanston Shuttle and Skokie Swift. As I noted, ended prior to 1995. chicago-l.org reference. There were also 5 car trains on the Evanston Express in the 1970s. It was also noted that in the early days of cab signals, a single unit with cab signals would be put on the end of a Ravenswood train, with cars without cab signals in the middle.

Also, the CTA cars starting with the PCCs (although maybe ending with the 7000s) do not have brake compressors. They are "all electric," with track (magnetic), dynamic (through the resistors, or in the 5000s, regenerative), and disc, actuated mechanically, although there apparently is a hydraulic assist for the disc brakes.

[Busjack]

When though do they get the notice to proceed after the contract is signed? Or is it on it's own timeline?

...

It is after the contract is signed, but not necessarily immediately after. Section 22 of the specs says:

Of course, the Notice to Proceed also depends on CTA saying it has the money for the base order.

There does seem to be an opportunity for ambiguity by measuring from both the Contract Execution Date and Notice to Proceed.

The difference in the dates is typified by the New Flyer mess over the base order for the 900 artics. If we believe New Flyer, the CT Board approved the contract. However, when it became obvious that NF jumped the gun, and didn't threaten a lawsuit, the Notice to Proceed had not been issued. After that, NF quarterly reports say that they do not book as backlog orders that have been approved by the authority boards, but for which they have not received the paperwork (i.e. a Notice to Proceed).