CTA Blue Line Crash at O'Hare

[jajuan]

I think your problem is that your stuck on the idea that it's not just her fault. Well whose fault is it sir? Are you telling me that a track is supposed to be designed for sleeping operators? You might say well "she was being overworked", but the fault goes back to her. Like art says it is her ultimate responsibility to report if she feels she can't do the job because we are not mind readers here. Now if your suggesting they back up the trip sensors that may help, but not in the case of sudden acceleration, by the time any fault system catches up to you the accident already happened. I think the problem doesn't lie in whether she entered the station correctly, it's how she approached the stopping of the train. Right when she was supposed to stop she accelerated. Putting a sensor at the end of the platform does not do anything for you. You would have to put trip sensors every 10 -20 feet to really be effective. Is that practical? Really if you want to keep this from happening again all you have to do is put a better deadman's control like NYC does. That does work immediately and doesn't have the delay of trip sensors if you are in between them. But that has problems too. If a persons fall asleep holding the trottle wide open which looks like what happened here that's not going to help either. So I don't know if it's possible to stop this from ever happening again. I think the key is getting the operator to not be in that position in the first place by stringent rules. If operators knew there would be consequences for their actions up to an including termination maybe they wouldn't be taking risks with peoples lives.

Ok you're not going to do this. When did I say it was not her fault?? Where in any post I made on this did I say she shared no fault whatsoever in the derailment? Like I said go back and read ALL my posts and not just try to cherrypick bits and pieces out of one post or another to try and mold my words into what you wish to ASSUME I said. Now since it seems not to be clear to you because you want to take bits and pieces of what I've said out of context, yes she has fault in accepting too much extra over time if it's determined that had a role in this and yes she's at fault for not getting enough proper rest or telling her immediate supervisors that she was fatigued. But I will say again, it's also CTA's fault because they ignored the red flag of her having nodded off at the throttle of the previous Blue Line train that overshot a station and didn't take proper steps to either take her from the rail operator position and reassign her to a position that she didn't pose a danger if that was possible or have a supervisor or some other higher level rail employee with operator experience shadow her for an extra length of time necessary to ensure her previous instance of nodding at the throttle wasn't as likely to happen again as Art suggested may have been possible to do in his post. Now if you wish to lay all fault on her and ignore CTA's fault in this, go right ahead. But do not put words or misrepresent my words as saying anything other than I actually said because as I said through out it's BOTH her AND CTA's fault in how the derailment played out the way it did. She needs to be penalized and everyone who knew of her prior record of nodding at the throttle and not going far enough to penalize her the first time also deserve to pay the consequences.

[BusHunter]

Ok I kind of see the point of the first car missing the platform.

Here's a quote that you said, it's almost sounds like Kelly saying operators nod off all the time that's normal. Now if you "see the point of this" why are you reprimanding all CTA managers who let her get by on a first offense?

[Bus Driver Dude]

Actually the trib O'Hare pictures may answer some questions. Check out the weak looking bumper post. Looks like they bought it at Toys R Us.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-photos-blue-line-ohare-station-reopens-20140330,0,6300366.photogallery

I agree the bump post are weak looking.

[jajuan]

Here's a quote that you said, it's almost sounds like Kelly saying operators nod off all the time that's normal. Now if you "see the point of this" why are you reprimanding all CTA managers who let her get by on a first offense?

Ok. Explain how me seeing how the infrastructure possibly being inadequate to slow the train down and keep it jumping up the bumper and catapulting into the escalator is the same thing as saying she is absolved of any and all fault by nodding off man. Seriously? That's a really huge leap you're making with my words. As I said, you're cherrypicking and taking things out of context to extrapolate my words into something else. Are you really going to go there?

[BusHunter]

Lol man!! You asked for a quote and I gave you one!! Sorry I don't mean to upset anyone. Peace.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

Guys...

Back on topic, has anyone noticed that in the pictures BusHunter provided O'Hare appears to be brighter and has more light fixtures? Last time I was there, they only had the can lights between the large concrete beams.

[jajuan]

Lol man!! You asked for a quote and I gave you one!! Sorry I don't mean to upset anyone. Peace.

You didn't upset me. Quite the opposite actually, but you also failed to explain how that quote is the same thing as me saying that the rail operator is free of fault because sorry to say, you can't. And with all due respect MTR, having differences on some of the details related to the crash is not going off topic. We're not always going to agree on everything on here. As far as I'm concerned, BusHunter and I have an honest disagreement on a few details based on a difference in how we both individually are looking at the available details. Perfectly normal. I take no disrespect in his position, and hopefully he takes none in mine since none is intended.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

You didn't upset me. Quite the opposite actually, but you also failed to explain how that quote is the same thing as me saying that the rail operator is free of fault because sorry to say, you can't. And with all due respect MTR, having differences on some of the details related to the crash is not going off topic. We're not always going to agree on everything on here. As far as I'm concerned, BusHunter and I have an honest disagreement on a few details based on a difference in how we both individually are looking at the available details. Perfectly normal. I take no disrespect in his position, and hopefully he takes none in mine since none is intended.

Oops. It's all good with me!

[BusHunter]

You didn't upset me. Quite the opposite actually, but you also failed to explain how that quote is the same thing as me saying that the rail operator is free of fault because sorry to say, you can't. And with all due respect MTR, having differences on some of the details related to the crash is not going off topic. We're not always going to agree on everything on here. As far as I'm concerned, BusHunter and I have an honest disagreement on a few details based on a difference in how we both individually are looking at the available details. Perfectly normal. I take no disrespect in his position, and hopefully he takes none in mine since none is intended.

After I got done mending fences with you guess what happened right in front of me?

Whoops!!

I had a train overshoot the station I was at!! How's that for irony? Actually someone mentioned to me this also happened right in front of supervision on a line yesterday. So it must be something that happens here and there. Where we got into our disagreement lies in this very thing. So don't believe this woman operator was the only one who did this. Unfortunately you can't fire everyone that does this, especially as a first offense. But you don't know who will become a risky operator either. This is the issue of our disagreement and something CTA and the union will have to deal with.

[sw4400]

After I got done mending fences with you guess what happened right in front of me?

Whoops!!

whoops.png

I had a train overshoot the station I was at!! How's that for irony? Actually someone mentioned to me this also happened right in front of supervision on a line yesterday. So it must be something that happens here and there. Where we got into our disagreement lies in this very thing. So don't believe this woman operator was the only one who did this. Unfortunately you can't fire everyone that does this, especially as a first offense. But you don't know who will become a risky operator either. This is the issue of our disagreement and something CTA and the union will have to deal with.

I would make light of this with a humorous quip, but I hope BusHunter you got the run number of this train and alerted CTA with the time of day and date of occurance and line it occurred on. We surely don't need another O-Hare incident again! Whatever the reason here, this is inexcusable... wake up, pay attention, get off the cell phone! Whatever the reason for this error, totally inexcusable in light of what just occurred.

I agree that firing may be a bit excessive, but in light of what happened, I think a suspension for a day or two might make the Operators be a bit more alert rather than have this occur again. This is how discipline should be handed for overshooting stations that are human error, not mechanical...

Union Employee

• 1 to 2-Day Suspension w/o pay
• 1-Week Suspension w/o pay
• Termination

Probationary Employee

• 1-Week Suspension w/o pay
• Termination

[garmon757]

You didn't upset me. Quite the opposite actually, but you also failed to explain how that quote is the same thing as me saying that the rail operator is free of fault because sorry to say, you can't. And with all due respect MTR, having differences on some of the details related to the crash is not going off topic. We're not always going to agree on everything on here. As far as I'm concerned, BusHunter and I have an honest disagreement on a few details based on a difference in how we both individually are looking at the available details. Perfectly normal. I take no disrespect in his position, and hopefully he takes none in mine since none is intended.

After I got done mending fences with you guess what happened right in front of me?

Whoops!!

whoops.png

I had a train overshoot the station I was at!! How's that for irony? Actually someone mentioned to me this also happened right in front of supervision on a line yesterday. So it must be something that happens here and there. Where we got into our disagreement lies in this very thing. So don't believe this woman operator was the only one who did this. Unfortunately you can't fire everyone that does this, especially as a first offense. But you don't know who will become a risky operator either. This is the issue of our disagreement and something CTA and the union will have to deal with.

You both have disagreements about this like brothers!!! LOL It's all good though!!! :D

[jajuan]

After I got done mending fences with you guess what happened right in front of me?

Whoops!!

whoops.png

I had a train overshoot the station I was at!! How's that for irony? Actually someone mentioned to me this also happened right in front of supervision on a line yesterday. So it must be something that happens here and there. Where we got into our disagreement lies in this very thing. So don't believe this woman operator was the only one who did this. Unfortunately you can't fire everyone that does this, especially as a first offense. But you don't know who will become a risky operator either. This is the issue of our disagreement and something CTA and the union will have to deal with.

Which is why I wasn't necessarily saying she should have been fired on the first offense, but she definitely should have been watched more closely for a while longer with her operator experience being so short. If it were possible to place her back as a flagman, that should have been done. Or like Art was saying she should have been shadowed by a rail instructor again for a good while longer but she still shouldn't have been placed back behind the throttle alone. I actually agreed with you that second more egregious offense probably warranted termination. My thing though is if there is truth behind her getting just s slap on the wrist for the first time, those folks should be gone right along with her.

[Busjack]

...This is how discipline should be handed for overshooting stations that are human error, not mechanical...

...

As has been mentioned many times, what CTA can do with regard to discipline is subject to the collective bargaining agreement, and subject to the grievance and arbitration process. Also, under section 28 of the MTA Act, the employee can appeal to the board (like that is going to make any difference).

You work in a union shop. If some employee messes up, do the other employees run a kangaroo court?*

The simple way to solve the BusHunter illustrated is that if the train has gps with dead reckoning, it locates the stop zone. However, that probably would get into the debate whether any agency can afford positive train control.

_________

*Sort of like when that fool Big Ben decided that Noah needed another day of suspension.

[artthouwill]

After I got done mending fences with you guess what happened right in front of me?

Whoops!!

whoops.png

I had a train overshoot the station I was at!! How's that for irony? Actually someone mentioned to me this also happened right in front of supervision on a line yesterday. So it must be something that happens here and there. Where we got into our disagreement lies in this very thing. So don't believe this woman operator was the only one who did this. Unfortunately you can't fire everyone that does this, especially as a first offense. But you don't know who will become a risky operator either. This is the issue of our disagreement and something CTA and the union will have to deal with.

I wish I could've gotten a pic of the train that I was on that undershot the Green Line Cicero stop going eastbound. The last car (which I was on) didn't make it into the station when the doors opened. Had the passengers getting offf actually stepped off the train, they possibly could've been on Lake St some 20 ft below. I suppose its better to overshoot than undershoot.

[Busjack]

I wish I could've gotten a pic of the train that I was on that undershot the Green Line Cicero stop going eastbound. The last car (which I was on) didn't make it into the station when the doors opened. Had the passengers getting offf actually stepped off the train, they possibly could've been on Lake St some 20 ft below. I suppose its better to overshoot than undershoot.

As I mentioned, I was on a Red Line train, where someone came up to the cab to tell the operator that, to which her response was "I thought I had a 6."

I assume, though, that a passenger would have enough sense to see that there wasn't a platform on the other side of the doorway. But, maybe not.

[BusHunter]

I wish I could've gotten a pic of the train that I was on that undershot the Green Line Cicero stop going eastbound. The last car (which I was on) didn't make it into the station when the doors opened. Had the passengers getting offf actually stepped off the train, they possibly could've been on Lake St some 20 ft below. I suppose its better to overshoot than undershoot.

Well I got lucky here, seeing what he done the operator came out of the cab and disconnected the door that passed the station and opened the doors. This gave me about 30 seconds to do this. CTA when they hear of stuff like this usually call in supervisors for the line to find out what happened. This did happen anyway in the next instance.

There was an instance on the Red line about 6 months ago where yard personnel at Howard pulled out a 10 car train. It wasn't caught and went all the way to Ashland/63rd like that, only there it was caught by that supervisor. Everyone was called in the office and some people were reprimanded because you have failures on many levels, yard personnel, supervision, operator. I was told the train ran in service like that opening the final two cars doors short of each station. They must have had a blast on the south elevated leg of the now Green line.

[TripleTransit1]

Aside from all of the evidence that's been conjured up, my guess is that CTA might let the driver go. What do you guys think?

[andrethebusman]

Unfortunately, not everybody is capable of handling every job, and in this case it would appear that this person is in a job that they just can't handle. In times past, such people were made ticket agents or porters. these days, with the emphasis on "discharge", that is the most likely scenario.

[jajuan]

I have to say that It's starting to sound like CTA needs to retrain a number of its rail operators. As is with my work location in relation to my home, it's actually better for me to take buses more often than I do trains because the trains would actually take me out of my way and therefore sometimes undercut whatever time savings I may get over taking only the bus if either connecting bus route has a delay. But this accident in conjunction with the Forest Park yard ghost train accident and these reports of operators overshooting and undershooting stations is doing much for holding on to the confidence I still have in riding the trains when I do need to ride them for something else.

[Busjack]

Aside from all of the evidence that's been conjured up, my guess is that CTA might let the driver go. What do you guys think?

I think that Claypool and the CT Board are going to break with precedent totally and run and abide by a poll on this board. No, I already said what I think.

And, basically, other than Andre's point (i.e. are there dangerous operators) it isn't our business.

Have you studied the collective bargaining agreement, Triple?

[Guest]

I would make light of this with a humorous quip, but I hope BusHunter you got the run number of this train and alerted CTA with the time of day and date of occurance and line it occurred on. We surely don't need another O-Hare incident again! Whatever the reason here, this is inexcusable... wake up, pay attention, get off the cell phone! Whatever the reason for this error, totally inexcusable in light of what just occurred.

I agree that firing may be a bit excessive, but in light of what happened, I think a suspension for a day or two might make the Operators be a bit more alert rather than have this occur again. This is how discipline should be handed for overshooting stations that are human error, not mechanical...

Union Employee

• 1 to 2-Day Suspension w/o pay
• 1-Week Suspension w/o pay
• Termination

Probationary Employee

• 1-Week Suspension w/o pay
• Termination

I do not think "termination" is excessive for this operator. I think it would be the right decision!. She has a history of inattention to duty! In this business you cant be inattentive to your job! You have to be alert 100 percent!!! No exceptions!!! The safety of riders and the public is the number #1 concern here! Once you start to get complacent with your duties that's when accidents happen! Sorry if I see things a bit different than many of you here but in my opinion this was a very serious accident that could have had very serious consequences! All I can think about is what if this had happened just a few hours later and that station full of people coming in and out of OHare!!! Ive been through that station hundreds of times, my family uses that station. What if I or they had been there when this happened??? This is just the same as "texting and driving" This operator put her life and the lives of the people not just on her train but around her in danger! CTA has its issues with scheduling operators no doubt, but in the end the train operator was on duty and in control of that train! She was ultimately responsible!

[Busjack]

... CTA has its issues with scheduling operators no doubt....

The union seems a bit hypocritical on this point. Maybe this is a result of Claypool trying to cut back the extra board, but if the report is correct that she asked for the overtime and was entitled to do so under the collective bargaining agreement, Kelly isn't in a position to complain that she worked 65 or 53 hours in the preceding 7 days.

On the other hand, the passengers are.

[sw4400]

I do not think "termination" is excessive for this operator. I think it would be the right decision!. She has a history of inattention to duty! In this business you cant be inattentive to your job! You have to be alert 100 percent!!! No exceptions!!! The safety of riders and the public is the number #1 concern here! Once you start to get complacent with your duties that's when accidents happen! Sorry if I see things a bit different than many of you here but in my opinion this was a very serious accident that could have had very serious consequences! All I can think about is what if this had happened just a few hours later and that station full of people coming in and out of OHare!!! Ive been through that station hundreds of times, my family uses that station. What if I or they had been there when this happened??? This is just the same as "texting and driving" This operator put her life and the lives of the people not just on her train but around her in danger! CTA has its issues with scheduling operators no doubt, but in the end the train operator was on duty and in control of that train! She was ultimately responsible!

I agree with you about the sleepy Rail Operator crash of 2014, CTA5750. I was referring to BusHunter's "Oops" moment that he caught on camera above. I feel in the case of overshoots like that, then discipline should be progressive like I put above, because both you and I know Kelly won't just let a Union Employee go without a fight, as I'm sure he's putting up for the "beat up" O-Hare train crash Operator. In the event of a crash into a station like that, or a derailment or a crash into another train, it should be immediate termination, IMO. But Kelly will fight that, even if the Operator dozed or was texting his BFF while between stations approaching a stopped train.

I'm all for Unions when the business might treat you unfairly, but if it's just cause for termination, like here, then it should stand without prejudice from the Union. Thank God it was 2a and not 9 or 10a!

[sw4400]

CTA is looking to do the right thing now, but we know Robert Kelly isn't going to let this happen!

Even Kelly isn't abiding by his own rules!

The CTA’s contract with the Amalgamated Mass Transit Union authorizes the agency to fire rail operators who have had two serious safety violations in a short period of time.

Let's see... overshooting the Belmont Blue Line station in February(dozing & safety violation #1) and crashing a train into the O-Hare station in March(also dozing and serious safety violation #2. Thank God it wasn't fatal, the injuries were bad enough!)... How many more safety violations do you need, Kelly? Abide by your contractual policy and uphold the CTA's termination!

[Busjack]

CTA is looking to do the right thing now, but we know Robert Kelly isn't going to let this happen!

Even Kelly isn't abiding by his own rules!

The CTA’s contract with the Amalgamated Mass Transit Union authorizes the agency to fire rail operators who have had two serious safety violations in a short period of time.

...

According to the Tribune, CTA management didn't have any problem figuring that out, and gave her a termination notice. Of course, she is entitled to her due process (grievance and section 28 hearing), but basically she's history.