Could CTA ever go Gillig?

[MetroShadow]

AC transit is gillig heavy, with their new local and transbay diesels (also they have Vanhools on a few of their routes).

[Busjack]

AC transit is gillig heavy, with their new local and transbay diesels (also they have Vanhools on a few of their routes).

Of course Gillig is near their territory, and they took heat for the Van Hools, which did not meet federal requirements, and apparently were paid for out of local funds.

[MVTArider]

Minneapolis is not a small town, and Metro's operation includes St Paul and a lot of suburbs. The weather up there is more brutal in the winter than Chicago, and the Gilligs hold up very well, so weather is not an issue. The question is what is the largest TA that Gillig serves?

On a garage tour I was told by a Metro Transit manager that they are Gillig's largest customer. As for snow they do fine from what I've seen, especially over this past winter. (If the bus has to layover at a mid route timepoint a minute because it's running ahead, and there's an inch an hour coming down on top of all the snow pack already on the street, I think it's safe to say they can handle snow.) One operator with Southwest Transit also told me that the SWT Gillig Phantoms are the best of the fleet for driving in snow, and then the Gillig BRTs, The MCIs and the New Flyers aren't so great, according to that operator.

Now as to the original question, could CTA go with Gillig? I'll only say time will tell. Anything is possible.

[dann]

That's what happens when I try to get clever. I should have said "I have a hard time visualizing a Gillig as a CTA bus." Midway Airport also uses them for the rental car shuttle.

Not to mention Alamo/national, hertz, and Avis/budget for their shuttles at ORD.

[Busjack]

... I think it's safe to say they can handle snow....

As I noted above, the issue (at least with the CTA Q&A) is whether the bus can handle magnesium road salt and the manufacturer still meet the 12 year structure warranty, not whether it will get stuck in a drift.

The other mystery in the CTA Q&A was who apparently was the third party submitting questions (Nova Bus and NF being identifiable).

[artthouwill]

As I noted above, the issue (at least with the CTA Q&A) is whether the bus can handle magnesium road salt and the manufacturer still meet the 12 year structure warranty, not whether it will get stuck in a drift.

The other mystery in the CTA Q&A was who apparently was the third party submitting questions (Nova Bus and NF being identifiable).

Millenium Transit

[Busjack]

Millenium Transit

I'll put the first questions out there to let people take their stab, 1 and 2 seem to be the clue, while 4 is the infamous splitting the award one:

It is fairly obvious that the questions starting with 58 are Nova Bus and about 125 for New Flyer.

Update: I was thinking something about Daimler bringing something here, but the Orion out of business announcement was April 2012, while this document was October, 2012.

[ctrabs74]

As I noted above, the issue (at least with the CTA Q&A) is whether the bus can handle magnesium road salt and the manufacturer still meet the 12 year structure warranty, not whether it will get stuck in a drift.

The other mystery in the CTA Q&A was who apparently was the third party submitting questions (Nova Bus and NF being identifiable).

Plus, Gillig is not necessarily known for overcustomizing orders (at least from my observations over the years); I would think building buses for the CTA might be a little much for them.

[Pink Jazz]

Just to let everyone know, Gillig has just won a 5 year contract to provide 202 40-foot diesel and/or CNG buses to the City of Phoenix and Valley Metro RPTA. While not as large as CTA, they are larger than Gillig's usual customers. I wonder if Gillig will have its eyes set for Chicago in the future.

[Busjack]

... I wonder if Gillig will have its eyes set for Chicago in the future.

Get back to us in 2019.*

_______

*In that Nova, like Gillig and apparently all bus manufacturers, has a 5 year contract, and the projected replacement date for the 1000s.

[jajuan]

Get back to us in 2019.*

_______

*In that Nova, like Gillig and apparently all bus manufacturers, has a 5 year contract, and the projected replacement date for the 1000s.

Of course that's provided CTA puts out a request for contract bids out in the 1000s' retirement eligibility year 2018 and gets a contract awarded. They have a knack for getting the procurement process started late enough that retirement age bus models are still around years after they reached retirement age.

[Pink Jazz]

Sorry to bump a two-year old thread, however, considering that Gillig has won most of the Valley Metro/Phoenix contract (except for the artics and BRT-styled buses) as well as more recently the latest MARTA contract, does anyone think CTA could be next?

[Busjack]

46 minutes ago, Pink Jazz said:

Sorry to bump a two-year old thread, however, considering that Gillig has won most of the Valley Metro/Phoenix contract (except for the artics and BRT-styled buses) as well as more recently the latest MARTA contract, does anyone think CTA could be next?

Depends on the next IFP or RFP, but does Gillig have the capacity to do about 600 buses in 3 years, plus meet all the nonstandard CTA requirements reflected in the addendum for the 7900s order?

[Pink Jazz]

3 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Depends on the next IFP or RFP, but does Gillig have the capacity to do about 600 buses in 3 years, plus meet all the nonstandard CTA requirements reflected in the addendum for the 7900s order?

Once they move to Livermore next year they will have significantly increased capacity.  This could help them win a CTA order.

[geneking7320]

When it comes to looks (and passenger comfort) I prefer the Gillig low floor with the BRT front to the Novabus or the Eldorados.

[BusGuy248]

Rumor I heard was CTA wanted Gillig to add a bunch of shit to their buses and Gillig basically said yeah we arent doing that our buses come as they are. Gillig walked away from CTA. 

[Busjack]

11 minutes ago, BusGuy248 said:

Rumor I heard was CTA wanted Gillig to add a bunch of shit to their buses and Gillig basically said yeah we arent doing that our buses come as they are. Gillig walked away from CTA. 

That's possible, given the Q&A in the addenda to the 40/60 foot procurement resulting in the 7900s. There was a third party that submitted questions, but I wasn't able to identify who it was. It was obvious from other questions that Nova Bus and NF were unhappy about the specs., but Nova eventually met them, but at a price that seemed about $60,000 more per bus than a bus usually went for.

The same thing was reflected in the discussion at the Pace board meeting on why only Eldorado National California bid on the contract for the 7 30 foot trolley replicas, even though Gillig also has a product.

[sw4400]

I personally don't see CTA going with anything but Nova and New Flyer for the foreseeable future. They got everything they might be wanting in buses.....

• 40' and 60' body styles
• Clean Diesel, Diesel/Electric Hybrid and All-Electric powertrains

CTA typically has a history of sticking with known buses(GM in the 60's-70's, M.A.N and Flyer in the 80's TMC(division of GM) and Flxible(known company going back to their New Looks from the 60's). New Flyer is still Flyer pretty much, just renamed...... same company. Only real gambles taken were NovaBus(which was a good one), NABI(you know this story) and Optima(I still think they were ok, but that's my opinion). I don't think the CTA will go with Gillig. But other things that have happened in America recently have shocked not just me but everyone(and I'm going to leave this at that), so anything is possible, in theory.....

[BusHunter]

Your probably right Sw, But there may be the oddball chance that Proterra could jump into the CTA electric bus contender field. While cta does have nf's that are electric and its probably best to stay with what they know already with the 700s versus what they don't know with Proterra at least they have been a friendly visitor to hq where companies like byd have not even expressed interest in selling cta its product. This to me puts them right there in 2nd place on the interest scale, if nf should do something to anger them then look who is in 2nd place, but crazy things have happened with bids before. I bet no one could say csr was going to be our next rail manufacturer but they are. 

[jajuan]

3 hours ago, sw4400 said:

I personally don't see CTA going with anything but Nova and New Flyer for the foreseeable future. They got everything they might be wanting in buses.....

• 40' and 60' body styles
• Clean Diesel, Diesel/Electric Hybrid and All-Electric powertrains

CTA typically has a history of sticking with known buses(GM in the 60's-70's, M.A.N and Flyer in the 80's TMC(division of GM) and Flxible(known company going back to their New Looks from the 60's). New Flyer is still Flyer pretty much, just renamed...... same company. Only real gambles taken were NovaBus(which was a good one), NABI(you know this story) and Optima(I still think they were ok, but that's my opinion). I don't think the CTA will go with Gillig. But other things that have happened in America recently have shocked not just me but everyone(and I'm going to leave this at that), so anything is possible, in theory.....

Nova wasn't really a gamble though from the standpoint that NF opened the door for them with the 65 buses, which we all know became the 5800s, assigned to North Park that CTA bought from them at about the same time that CTA bought its last buses from Flxible shortly before Flxible went bust. That small order went on to prove that low floor standard length buses in general could survive on Chicago's streets and in Chicago's winters. Nova had already proven itself in other markets by then, of course largely in Canadian cities, and thus earned the first big order of low floors behind the NF 5800s. 

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Your probably right Sw, But there may be the oddball chance that Proterra could jump into the CTA electric bus contender field. While cta does have nf's that are electric and its probably best to stay with what they know already with the 700s versus what they don't know with Proterra at least they have been a friendly visitor to hq where companies like byd have not even expressed interest in selling cta its product. This to me puts them right there in 2nd place on the interest scale, if nf should do something to anger them then look who is in 2nd place, but crazy things have happened with bids before. I bet no one could say csr was going to be our next rail manufacturer but they are. 

Again (as illustrated by my reaction to @BusGuy248), it depends on who bids. It appears that the market for electric buses is more open than that for conventional buses.

[Fullerton5000]

It probably depends on whether or not it's worthwhile for Gillig to aim for the CTA. If they just won the Phoenix/RPTA contract last year, they may already have their hands full between that and whatever other smaller TAs they're building buses for. In that case, it might not be worthwhile for them to customize a bunch of buses for the CTA instead of their usual off-the-shelf models.