600-series Proterra BE40/ZX5 - Updates

[Busjack]

9 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

The New Flyer change order is roughly half the value of the original contract, perhaps a replacement bus?

That wouldn't make any sense. Aside from that there should have been a warranty, there would be no point to make that a change order to an existing  4 year old contract; one could just give a notice to proceed for 21 Proterras. Given that they said at the Board Meeting that the charger part of the contract was $14 million, the Proterras seem about $900,000 per bus.

However, $1.2 million does seem excessive for whatever it is.

Maybe it will show up eventually under Ordinances.

[ChicagoNova]

22 hours ago, Busjack said:

Press Release: Proterra got the contract.

Also, of interest is that the Proterra site has a crawl about adopting interoperable EV charging technology, thus conforming to the spec.

I'd like to see & ride those Proterra electric buses. I've seen a good few running around downtown on Michigan & Randolph.

[Busjack]

27 minutes ago, ChicagoNova said:

I'd like to see & ride those Proterra electric buses. I've seen a good few running around downtown on Michigan & Randolph.

You mentioned that you saw them. However, the Shuttle Schedule says to ride, you need a company access code and an e-permit, and pay for an at least 10 ride ticket.

[ChicagoNova]

On 6/14/2018 at 12:12 PM, Busjack said:

You mentioned that you saw them. However, the Shuttle Schedule says to ride, you need a company access code and an e-permit, and pay for an at least 10 ride ticket.

Actually I'd like to ride one once it's in CTA's hands.

[sw4400]

I would be skittish of the "lowest-bidder" bus. Especially after the fiasco following our "low-bid" bus purchase in 2003-2004, in the NABI 60-LFW.

[Busjack]

20 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

I would be skittish of the "lowest-bidder" bus. Especially after the fiasco following our "low-bid" bus purchase in 2003-2004, in the NABI 60-LFW.

Nobody said this is a low bidder bus, as this was a request for proposals based in part on technical merit.

Also, Proterra is about the oldest company in this business (relatively speaking), and unlike a New Flyer, the 10 Aon Prudential buses haven't gone up in flames yet (although, according to the CTA Press Releases, neither have the 2 New Flyers)..

[jajuan]

58 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

I would be skittish of the "lowest-bidder" bus. Especially after the fiasco following our "low-bid" bus purchase in 2003-2004, in the NABI 60-LFW.

 

35 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Nobody said this is a low bidder bus, as this was a request for proposals based in part on technical merit.

Also, Proterra is about the oldest company in this business (relatively speaking), and unlike a New Flyer, the 10 Aon Prudential buses haven't gone up in flames yet (although, according to the CTA Press Releases, neither have the 2 New Flyers)..

In addition to that, it's been established several times over that CTA has instituted safeguards to minimize another NABI fiasco happening again. So can we finally stop beating that dead horse almost 15 years after the fact?

[Busjack]

28 minutes ago, geneking7320 said:

I don't think this merits a new topic so I would like to ask:

When CTA's next electrics come in will they have a new livery or wrap?

 

• There was a topic (this one).
• Similar to 700 and  701, we'll find out in December, I guess, but my betting is similar to 700 and 701.

[Busjack]

THIS IS THE TOPIC FOLKS:

8 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

I agree with this. The livery on 700 and 701 is “promotional”, which is not as important now that more buses have been ordered. My bet is that they will be the standard colors, but with the words “Electric Bus” on top, similar to “Clean Air Hybrid Bus”.

If CTA is anything, it is promotional.

[Busjack]

57 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

So 124 is going to chicago. That's the only alternative.

It's too premature to be sure. However, the prebid inspection for what became the Proterra contract was only at Navy Pier, Chicago and Austin, and Chicago Garage.

Maybe the better speculation is that if the first are supposed to be here by the end of the year, something better have been on a flatbed truck by now.

 

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

It's too premature to be sure. However, the prebid inspection for what became the Proterra contract was only at Navy Pier, Chicago and Austin, and Chicago Garage.

Maybe the better speculation is that if the first are supposed to be here by the end of the year, something better have been on a flatbed truck by now.

 

What's scary is that there are no quick charger installations being made so far so how will they charge it, pull up to a tesla supercharger? Lol

[sw4400]

On 6/14/2018 at 9:26 AM, Busjack said:

That wouldn't make any sense. Aside from that there should have been a warranty, there would be no point to make that a change order to an existing  4 year old contract; one could just give a notice to proceed for 21 Proterras. Given that they said at the Board Meeting that the charger part of the contract was $14 million, the Proterras seem about $900,000 per bus.

However, $1.2 million does seem excessive for whatever it is.

Maybe it will show up eventually under Ordinances.

That's another reason why Hybrids or Clean Diesel buses will be the mainstay of the CTA roster for the foreseeable future... even when it comes time to retire the 1,030 New Flyer D40LF's in the 2020-2025 timeframe. A Clean Diesel Nova Bus from the last procurement was $500,000/bus, a Hybrid might be about $750,000/bus, maybe a touch more.

But $900,000/bus just for 40' buses is a lot, not including the chargers like you alluded to @Busjack. If we went all-electric for 60' buses(which has yet to be tested), it would easily top $1,000,000/bus, maybe even more.

Having a small quantity of all-electric buses is fine, but when you start talking hundreds on order, or even 1,000+ of them(in the case of the New Flyers that'll be retired in the next decade), that'll get pricey.

[andrethebusman]

Confirmed by source at 567 - electrics going on 63rd Street

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

Confirmed by source at 567 - electrics going on 63rd Street

Maybe that's what the Midway charger is about, but then they would also have to get a charger at 74th garage, which hasn't been mentioned yet.

UPDATE: But if it is that, the "electrics" are 700, 701, not the topic of this thread. See Ordinance 018-051.

[BusHunter]

On 1/4/2019 at 5:50 PM, andrethebusman said:

Confirmed by source at 567 - electrics going on 63rd Street

That's nuts. 63rd doesn't even serve downtown. Where will the charging station be at midway. Where will they put it? How are they going to keep it from getting hit? It cant go on the islands or it will get hit. 74th would need a charging station. Sounds really spur of the moment. I hope it's not true. Most of chicago will never even see them. 

[Busjack]

6 hours ago, BusHunter said:

That's nuts. 63rd doesn't even serve downtown

21, 52, and 79 didn't either.

If you have a complaint, take it to the CTA Board, which passed the ordinance.

And, of course, again, you are perpetuating the wrong topic. 2 for 2 today.

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

21, 52, and 79 didn't either.

If you have a complaint, take it to the CTA Board, which passed the ordinance.

And, of course, again, you are perpetuating the wrong topic. 2 for 2 today.

Maybe you can take me to court counselor. Sometimes you are just ridiculous. Complaining to cta is a waste of time. I dont use the system anymore and you guys tell me there is no south side power??? They are not even on a north south route.  I rest my case, cta has supported what I know is true, fg getting new buses, what a laugh!!!! 

[andrethebusman]

I am getting contradictory info from my source. One one hand, says electrics going on 63rd, on other hand chargers will be in two bays closest to stationhouse at Midway.45 is WAY more than 54B needs, so maybe both are true?

[NewFlyerMCI]

7 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

I am getting contradictory info from my source. One one hand, says electrics going on 63rd, on other hand chargers will be in two bays closest to stationhouse at Midway.45 is WAY more than 54B needs, so maybe both are true?

Could be. If chargers are installed at A & B, what is could possibly be is that buses using K (54B SB), L (62H) & M (55A & 55N) could also charge at A, thereby having 5 routes with electrics. Not sure that will take all 45 of them however.

[andrethebusman]

63 is indeed confirmed as the one to be electric. Chargers will be in first two ISLAND bays as it can't be installed in first lane as the canopy supports would be in the way.

[BusHunter]

Seems down in San Antonio they are have some issues with proterras. 

[sw4400]

On 1/17/2019 at 3:27 PM, BusHunter said:

Seems down in San Antonio they are have some issues with proterras. 

I was about to say "When might we hear something about the Proterras?"..... this makes me wonder though if this procurement might've been not a good one now. We had issues with NABI with the 60-LFW's due to the splitting at the hubner joints. I hope that when we get these, we're not in for a NABI part 2, so-to-speak.

 

This also leads me to my point that all-electric buses are still in their infancy and can't be relied upon for a full fleet yet. Even numbers greater than 50 can be problematic if issues like this arise where 115 are down with wiring issues. I would say for now, stick with Clean Diesel or Diesel-Electric Hybrids. At least these are proven to work.

[XE NewFlyer]

On 1/31/2019 at 2:41 PM, sw4400 said:

I was about to say "When might we hear something about the Proterras?"..... this makes me wonder though if this procurement might've been not a good one now. We had issues with NABI with the 60-LFW's due to the splitting at the hubner joints. I hope that when we get these, we're not in for a NABI part 2, so-to-speak.

 

This also leads me to my point that all-electric buses are still in their infancy and can't be relied upon for a full fleet yet. Even numbers greater than 50 can be problematic if issues like this arise where 115 are down with wiring issues. I would say for now, stick with Clean Diesel or Diesel-Electric Hybrids. At least these are proven to work.

if proterra's running the downtown shuttle had problems the people running them would have told the cta about it. so those problems might not be widespread

[busfan2847]

15 hours ago, XE NewFlyer said:

if proterra's running the downtown shuttle had problems the people running them would have told the cta about it. so those problems might not be widespread

There is a difference between running buses a few hours each rush hour to operating them all day. cta 700 & 701 were only used in rush hours as they had to go back to garage to recharge. Fast charging at termini is essential for all day running and as that will be at high current the issue of batteries overheating and wiring becoming damaged is more critical.

[Nova's at 103rd]

On 1/4/2019 at 5:50 PM, andrethebusman said:

Confirmed by source at 567 - electrics going on 63rd Street

Will there be a charging station at 63rd and Stony Island because if so will the YMCA allow this on the outside of it's property, or is it city property.

Also the Proterra's are on back order due to not being able to manufactured right now.

Plus if 74th will get Proterra's then maybe 54B should be sent to 74th so 63rd and South Cicero can be at one garage and not have a bus bay at Midway for 2 buses who serve the same station but different garages.

Shouldn't 79th be discussed as one going electric or is it just to busy during times.

Chicago won a grant this year to purchase 30 electric buses from Proterra, which is headquartered in Silicon Valley but has manufacturing plants in L.A. and South Carolina. Proterra has been rapidly expanding. It has reportedly been overwhelmed with orders.From https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/12/07/why-are-we-still-waiting-for-electric-buses/